31 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

This method will have the added benefit of increasing Light queue due to 40 ton mechs such as the Cicada (which is pretty much a Light) joining the 20-35 tonners, and might reduce the Heavy queue by sending popular 60 ton mechs such as the Dragon, and Mad Dog in the same queue as the 45-55 ton mechs. Finally the 80 ton mechs such as the Awesome will join the former Heavies and will not take up a precious Assault spot, mostly reserved for the Whale/Crab/Banshee/Stalker.

I know it might be hard for some people to get used to, or agree with, but for me it makes more sense.

Debate away.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2015 - 08:22 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

It sounds like an interesting idea. Would love to try it.

We're also going to need more 40 tonners and 45 tonners.

[Rhaythe]

So you want to increase the tonnage per game even more and give people even fewer reasons to pilot a traditional 'light'? Pass.

EDIT: Fixing grammar

Edited by Rhaythe, 06 April 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[Bobzilla]

I won't increase light use, just name other non-light mechs to light to seem like there is more.

It'd be the same if you swapped the name of light with heavy. Bam, instant 50% light que and heavy que drops to 4%.

[El Bandito]

Bobzilla, on 06 April 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

I won't increase light use, just name other non-light mechs to light to seem like there is more.

It'd be the same if you swapped the name of light with heavy. Bam, instant 50% light que and heavy que drops to 4%.

You are not getting it, I am not naming anything as "Light"--this is proposal for a new system. I'm trying to make the queues more even and giving the 80 tonners less chance of getting matched against 100 tonners in the same division, cause the power difference between them are huge.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2015 - 05:21 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I wouldn't object, but I'd be *SHOCKED* if it happened, as the current system is pretty much basic Battletech.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Are there details in another thread or something? I have no idea what you mean by 40/60/80/100 system. You just wanna rename the groups so the queue numbers look different? Is there an actual problem you're trying to solve?

Edited by Rizzelbizzeg, 06 April 2015 - 07:25 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Is anyone actually leaving their Cicada in the mechbay because they're worried the other team will have a better medium mech? That sort of thinking never enters the equation for me.

I think people just go with whatever mech can get them lots of kills and damage. I don't think people are leaving the Victor at home because they're potentially giving the enemy team a 20 ton advantage. They leave the Victor at home because they feel they can't do well with it, or because they do better with the King Crab, for example.

That being said, I'd very much like to compare the status quo with matches where MM cared less about weight balance and more about Elo. I just got out of a match where our assault mechs showed up to the fighting 5 minutes late because they withdrew from one half and spent forever trying to catch up with the other half of the team. I would have happily traded them for some sensible medium mech pilots.

[SkyHammyr]

Alistair Winter, on 06 April 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Is anyone actually leaving their Cicada in the mechbay because they're worried the other team will have a better medium mech? That sort of thinking never enters the equation for me.

I think people just go with whatever mech can get them lots of kills and damage. I don't think people are leaving the Victor at home because they're potentially giving the enemy team a 20 ton advantage. They leave the Victor at home because they feel they can't do well with it, or because they do better with the King Crab, for example.

Actually, yeah, that does come to mind when I look at my stable of 'Mechs or when I consider new 'Mech purchases.
The Quickdraw for example. I like the way that 'Mech looks. I'd like to take the plunge and get three. But, at 60 tons, i can't help but feel I'm giving away 15 tons when I could simply stick with the TBR.

I'm not saying you wrong. I do amazingly well in a 50 tonner as opposed to a 55. I'm just saying the low end of the weight class, and the disadvantage that may or may not come with that, does factor into my thought process.

I've thought about what Bandito suggests.
The problem is, shoving the 80 ton weight group (with still oft-played chassis like the Awesome, Gargoyle and Zeus) into the Heavy Queue would only serve to swell that 50+% even higher. Reason being, the high queue isn't because of the Dragons and MDDs, it's because of the TBRs, HBRs, Hoppers, Thunderbolts and Catapults (these I see in quantity in my matches).
Maybe if we just bit the bullet and realized people love their Heavies (and don't love Lights so much) and did 2/3/4/3 to lighten the queue load?

Edited by SkyHammr, 06 April 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Raggedyman]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

You are not getting it, I am not naming anything as "Light"--this is proposal for a new system. I'm trying to make the queues more even and giving the 80 tonners less chance of getting matched against 100 tonners, cause the power difference between them are huge.

It's not a "proposal for a new system", its an alteration on the existing one. However you cut it the current system has four "buckets" (Light, Medium, Heavy, and Assault) and you are just redefining what those buckets mean.

Regards "giving the 80 tonners less chance of getting matched against 100 tonners,", this won't do that. It'll give them more chance of going up against them, as folks tend towards the max weight for each class. All you are doing is creating a higher chance of 4 80ts vs 4 100ts which is going to be an increase in the power difference. If your plan was to ensure that each match has 4 max tonnage mechs then "huzzah!" and "DOH!", as per the viewers preference.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

This method will have the added benefit of increasing Light queue due to 40 ton mechs such as the Cicada (which is pretty much a Light) joining the 20-35 tonners, and might reduce the Heavy queue by sending popular 60 ton mechs such as the Dragon, and Mad Dog in the same queue as the 45-55 ton mechs. Finally the 80 ton mechs such as the Awesome will join the former Heavies and will not take up a precious Assault spot, mostly reserved for the Whale/Crab/Banshee/Stalker.

I know it might be hard for some people to get used to, or agree with, but for me it makes more sense.

Debate away.

Only fault I see with this is 5/5/5/3. And the thought that if this change gets made what stops adding 45s to Lights cause they are almost a light.

[El Bandito]

Raggedyman, on 06 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

It's not a "proposal for a new system", its an alteration on the existing one. However you cut it the current system has four "buckets" (Light, Medium, Heavy, and Assault) and you are just redefining what those buckets mean.

Regards "giving the 80 tonners less chance of getting matched against 100 tonners,", this won't do that. It'll give them more chance of going up against them, as folks tend towards the max weight for each class. All you are doing is creating a higher chance of 4 80ts vs 4 100ts which is going to be an increase in the power difference. If your plan was to ensure that each match has 4 max tonnage mechs then "huzzah!" and "DOH!", as per the viewers preference.

The 80 tonners will not face the 100 tonners in the same weight class--that's the difference. It will compete with 75 tonners, which is far better.

Joseph Mallan, on 06 April 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Only fault I see with this is 5/5/5/3. And the thought that if this change gets made what stops adding 45s to Lights cause they are almost a light.

Shadowcat and Blackjack are definitely of Medium caliber. *shrugs*

And what do you mean by 5/5/5/3? I quite do not understand. It is 5/4/4/4, if anything.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

20,25,30,35,40=5 Lights
45,50,55,60,

Right I miscounted 5/4/4/3

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 April 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

20,25,30,35,40=5 Lights
45,50,55,60,

Right I miscounted 5/4/4/3

You miscounted again, the heaviest class include 85,90,95,100--so four. Also currently there is no 20 ton mech in game, nor PGI is likely to release one. Better off counting from 25 tons. So it is more like 5/4/4/4

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[Bobzilla]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

You are not getting it, I am not naming anything as "Light"--this is proposal for a new system. I'm trying to make the queues more even and giving the 80 tonners less chance of getting matched against 100 tonners, cause the power difference between them are huge.

But saying an 85 vs 100 is better than 80 vs 100 is also saying 20 vs 40 is better than 20 vs 35.

Also in your OP you said it has the benifit of increaseing the light que and decreaseing the heavy que. But all the mechs are still the same. So like I said originally, it's just changing names/classifications, but the mechs will remain the same.

You then go on to say a crappy assault won't take up a good assaults spot, aren't you worried a highlander is going to take a good assault spot? Do you not foresee them ever making a really bad 100 ton mech?

Maybe the problem is difference in performance of mechs? Kind of why currently heavies are used most.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

You miscounted again, the heaviest class include 85,90,95,100--so four. Also currently there is no 20 ton mech in game, nor PGI is likely to release one. Better off counting from 25 tons. So it is more like 4/4/4/4

The Locust is 20 ton...

[Wintersdark]

Alistair Winter, on 06 April 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Is anyone actually leaving their Cicada in the mechbay because they're worried the other team will have a better medium mech? That sort of thinking never enters the equation for me.

I think people just go with whatever mech can get them lots of kills and damage. I don't think people are leaving the Victor at home because they're potentially giving the enemy team a 20 ton advantage. They leave the Victor at home because they feel they can't do well with it, or because they do better with the King Crab, for example.

That being said, I'd very much like to compare the status quo with matches where MM cared less about weight balance and more about Elo. I just got out of a match where our assault mechs showed up to the fighting 5 minutes late because they withdrew from one half and spent forever trying to catch up with the other half of the team. I would have happily traded them for some sensible medium mech pilots.

You may not care, but some do. It does matter, too - Dragons and mad dogs hardly measure up to Cataphracts(poor orion) and Timberwolves, no? Still, this change shuffles the deck a bit but ultimately leaves new mechs in that position. 45t, 65t, 80t'ers all become the new Bottom Of The Weight Class mechs. Maybe that's not as bad, though? God knows, the 40 ton mediums certainly are more light than medium, and the 60t heavies are not particularly outstanding.

In the grand scheme of things, I think it'd change some of what people bring, but other than making the queues appear more balanced, it wouldn't really change things much. But, regardless, it won't happen because the weight class limits are pretty core Battletech things, and changing that stuff generally requires a really strong reason to do it - this isn't really that important.

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 April 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

The Locust is 20 ton...

Oh right, that's my bad, will edit.

Bobzilla, on 06 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

But saying an 85 vs 100 is better than 80 vs 100 is also saying 20 vs 40 is better than 20 vs 35.

Also in your OP you said it has the benifit of increaseing the light que and decreaseing the heavy que. But all the mechs are still the same. So like I said originally, it's just changing names/classifications, but the mechs will remain the same.

You then go on to say a crappy assault won't take up a good assaults spot, aren't you worried a highlander is going to take a good assault spot? Do you not foresee them ever making a really bad 100 ton mech?

Maybe the problem is difference in performance of mechs? Kind of why currently heavies are used most.

1. 85 tonners such as Stalker and Warhawk stands better chance against 100 tonners than 80 tonners such as Awesome or Zeus. And yes, a Locust can do as well as a Cicada thanks to quirks.

2. Mechs remains the same but queue % might be positively influenced.

3. Highlander taking on a 100 tonner is better alternative than Awesome doing it.

4. Since I moved two popular Heavy mechs--the Dragon and Mad Dog to lower weight division, the "heavy" queue % might likely see reduction.


Of course, this is just personal opinion. Anything to make this game more worth playing.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[AlphaToaster]

Not a bad idea but I'm not sure it will help diversity.

25-40 Ton Light:
IS PROS: Allows Cicada to be chosen as a light mech. ECM capable, fast mech.
IS CONS: Not really a downside to IS. The other choice light is the Firestarter which is already close enough @ 35 tons. The Cicada isn't going to bully the other lights much.

CLAN PROS: No benefit for clans.
CLAN CONS: Clans don't have a 40 tonner, and have to go underweight to 25-30 tons before they benefit from speed. Matching Myst Lynx and Cheetas against Cicadas could be rough.

45-60 ton Mediums:
IS PROS: Allows the meta quirked Dragon to replace BJ's, Kintaros, Hunchies.
IS CONS: Little reason to take anything but a Dragon unless someone wants to LRM. Dragon out classes all these other traditional mediums by a wide margin. The Dragon will be the new Medium TBR for IS.

CLAN PROS: Puts the Mad Dog in the same bracket as the Ice Ferret/Shadow Cat/Nova/Stormcrow. Aside from being a better LRM platform than the Stormcrow, this isn't really a good thing.
CLAN CONS: Aside from LRMs, Stormcrow outclasses the Mad Dog by a wide margin, and the runner up will be the Shadow Cat w/ ECM. This change wouldn't really benefit the Clans as much.

65-80 Ton Heavy:

IS PROS: Allows Victors to be taken as heavy mechs. Victors would replace most of the IS heavies because you can run them fast or slow, with great firepower compared to the lighter heavies.
IS CONS: Little reason other than LRMs to bring Catapults or to brawl in a CTF when you can bring a Victor and do the same job with more armor.

CLAN PROS: I can't think of a benefit for this one.
CLAN CONS: Taking a Gargoyle instead of a Timberwolf or Hellbringer wouldn't be ideal in most situations, because reasons.

85-100 tons Assault:

IS PROS: Can still bring 4 Atlas along with 4 Victors.
IS CONS: None.

CLAN PROS: Can still bring 4 Direwolves instead of 4 Warhawks.
CLAN CONS: Someone might bring a Gargoyle instead of a Timberwolf or Hellbringer and screw it up for the rest of the team. At least if the Gargolye was assault it would replace a Direwolf, and be able to keep up with the team.


This type of change would benefit the IS much more than the Clans. Maybe it's worth it to try and see if shifting the weights around evens out the matches some on a public test server weekend or something like that. I'd be interested in seeing the match results and what the drop decks end up looking like. I'm not opposed to testing giving the IS a Timberwolf in the form of a Dragon that counts as a medium.

[Macksheen]

I think I kinda like it in that it does give a soft-boost to the IS w/o nerfing clan mechs.