329 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Water Bear, on 10 April 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

In all fairness streak crows do more or less wreck light mechs right now. Before the clans the most streak srms you could fit was about 12. Now it's like 30. If taking 12 was an OK idea before (not many people did but some did, including myself) then taking 30 now is about three times as good an idea.

In other words, if there ever was a reason to take mass streak srms, then the scrow appeals to that reason three fold.

IMO, here's what we need to do. Reduce the scrows max missile hardpoints to like 3-4, reduce the dire whales max ballistic hardpoints to about 4, add ghost heat to C ac/10s, and remove endo or ferro from the Timber.

Could solve a lot of problems, no?

They can't reduce the hardpoints on Clan Omnimechs because you have to be able to create stock builds. You also can't remove Endo or FF from the Mad Cat for the same reason.

For the Clan AC/10, why would you nerf those? Clan ballistics in general have a bad reputation, and the placeholder ACs (as opposed to the UACs) are even worse.


For Streaks, we don't need to reduce missile hardpoints and we might not have to directly "nerf" the Streak launchers themselves...it's hard to tell if they need a nerf or not because of their currently binary "all or nothing" nature. They operate on a pendulum swing between being crap against some targets and being too easy to use against some other targets. Their performance isn't consistent in any way, so we can't really measure their effectiveness until they do behave consistently.

Their whole tracking mechanic needs to go back to the drawing board, but of course that won't happen because Streaks are one of MWO's Legacy Features by this point.

Edited by FupDup, 10 April 2015 - 07:36 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Malleus011, on 07 April 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

In lore, Streaks are no more accurate than other SRMs. That aspect is all PGI.

False.

Streaks are an "always hit" mechanic even in Lore and TT. MWO is actually less accurate then lore as it is because at least here, terrain / friendly mechs can physically block Streak shots.

http://www.sarna.net...issile_Launcher

AMS, ECM hard counters streaks.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if they reduced the "missile hp" on SRM's to .5 to allow ams to be more effective.

[xe N on]

In contrast to LRMs, SSRMs currently target randomly certain mech parts and, therefore, always hit the mech. They don't really have any fixed spread as LRMs or SRMs.

Solution: Make c-SSRMs work like LRMs with a range of 0-360. LRMs have a fixed spread on the target and if fired upon lights some missiles actually don't hit because of the spread size.

Edited by xe N on, 10 April 2015 - 07:53 AM.

[Gyrok]

Haji1096, on 10 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Many times targeting information is not available to determine if an SCR is a Streak boat or not. This leads to any Stormcrow/Mad Dog shutting down my freedom of movement for initial stages of a match. I'm pretty much locked to staying within 200 m of my team. Streak boats should never be engaged by light mech bearing a traditional load out.

Some maps have blind corners, where you can't see if a Streak boat is around the corner. Some have said I should use a UAV to look around a blind corner. So I have to spend 40k just to maybe see oppostion load outs ? Some have said I should use seismic. Sadly, stopping is death for a light mech.

Lets call a spade a spade. Streaks are no skill weapons for players that can't hit lights with other direct fire weapons. They nerf the least played, most unforgiving class in the game. If they are to be kept in their current form I recommend the following changes:

• Streak boats should give off a radar pulse that gives away their position every 20 s.
  
• Give lights more agility
  
• Give lights jump jets that actually increase my evasion instead of making me a huge target while I arc through the air towards my death.
  
• Allow lights to use seismic module while in motion

Streaks are less effective than gauss and pulse lasers, and well aimed SRMs. They are far less effective than IS ACs too.

Do you steer clear of gauss mechs, SRM boats, energy boats, and IS dakka boats too...?

If you cannot accommodate playing for all those plus streak boats, then you are not really a light pilot. Find something you can play effectively since you are not a light pilot.

It is absolutely ok to be a terrible light pilot and scared of your shadow in lights. I am about a solid B tier light pilot. Some matches I am a hero, some matches I am a zero. Depends on how it turns out. Watch adiuvo and some of the top tier light pilots to see what I am talking about. You cannot be scared to drive a light and you cannot be scared to die at all.

Light pilots, the good ones, are typically a bit off in the head. Not being mean, but light pilots have a different mentality and take it as a challenge. They just do it until they figure it out...they refuse to let it get to them, and refuse to accept that they cannot do something because XYZ reason.

People who want to be light pilots and do not have the mentality or the skill set are simply kidding themselves. Driving lights will make you a better pilot in all mech weight classes, but it does not mean you are supposed to be a light pilot.

Accept it, or adapt and overcome. That choice is yours, but lights are not in a bad place, and streaks are most certainly not OP.

[parman01]

Haji1096, on 10 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Lets call a spade a spade. Streaks are no skill weapons for players that can't hit lights with other direct fire weapons. They nerf the least played, most unforgiving class in the game.

Lights are no skill chassis for players that need lag-shield and bad hit detection abuse to stay competitive.
See,...I can throw in some random words too.

[Weeny Machine]

If a light pilot complains about streaks, ok. However, the weapon system has its disadvantages: ECM, range and spread. To some extend also Radar Deprivation of you can run out of sight the streaker has to lock again buying you precious seconds.


Sidenote: LRMs are skillless...streaks are skillless...but it seems the laser spam you see these days is the epitome of skill *chuckle*

Edited by Bush Hopper, 10 April 2015 - 08:35 AM.

[dario03]

Gyrok, on 10 April 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Streaks are less effective than gauss and pulse lasers, and well aimed SRMs. They are far less effective than IS ACs too.

Do you steer clear of gauss mechs, SRM boats, energy boats, and IS dakka boats too...?

If you cannot accommodate playing for all those plus streak boats, then you are not really a light pilot. Find something you can play effectively since you are not a light pilot.

It is absolutely ok to be a terrible light pilot and scared of your shadow in lights. I am about a solid B tier light pilot. Some matches I am a hero, some matches I am a zero. Depends on how it turns out. Watch adiuvo and some of the top tier light pilots to see what I am talking about. You cannot be scared to drive a light and you cannot be scared to die at all.

Light pilots, the good ones, are typically a bit off in the head. Not being mean, but light pilots have a different mentality and take it as a challenge. They just do it until they figure it out...they refuse to let it get to them, and refuse to accept that they cannot do something because XYZ reason.

People who want to be light pilots and do not have the mentality or the skill set are simply kidding themselves. Driving lights will make you a better pilot in all mech weight classes, but it does not mean you are supposed to be a light pilot.

Accept it, or adapt and overcome. That choice is yours, but lights are not in a bad place, and streaks are most certainly not OP.

Light mech pilot here (well actually every mech but I like lights). Streaks and especially streakcrows should go through a complete rework on how they work. Ideally something that makes them less powerful against lights and more powerful against assaults. I like a challenge but in a pvp game I like for my opponent to have to work for it as well. And no I don't like the lights work by staying away from streakcrows and streakcrows work by staying away from assaults style. If a complete rework is to much then they need to come up with a way to seperate artemis from streaks or add the crit/tonnage, no more 0 ton/crit super fast lock ons. Other changes could be a mix of less ammo per ton, range, and damage with faster cooldown as a benefit. Exact numbers depending on how many are changed.

[Kuritaclan]

Just a question. Why does this thread plop out now? Streak Crows are around since the first day of community warfare? Idk but while light rushs worked in first place clans did adapt to it with getting there dropdeck changed to set around one quarter of their over all value to specifically deal with this tactik. So what has changed, that i didn't saw complains and light buff wishes before, but now they plop out?

The hardest thing to do is legging the light with common weapons, lrms will sometimes get outrund, ppfld dmage needs lead and is problematic if not in part of the mech since convergancy and terrain will help that shots will not hit the same enemy part @ near range or even miss a part of the damage if for example the weapongroup have 2 ppfld weapons split to both arms. So SSRMs are the mostlikly way to deal with lights and they spread well, so that everything above medium will soak up the heatintensiv spread damage of SSRMs easy. Lasers with longer beam duration needs a very steady aim to hit the legs, going for the toso it gets most time outtwisted. So what exactly is the problem of a weapon that does server a special purpose, but is weak against another half of the tonnage range.

I don't see the problem right away. BAP only counter within a certainrange. If the Light has ECM he runs out of this range and the target lock will disappear. Tag is better for leading, but you need the constant aiming to hold the mech in lock, narc is ok but ammo dependend and a bit slow, so that it can easy miss on fast mechs.

At least if a light has boarderline syndrom and runs into the enemy forces it will get punished. Lights running in the open without using cover get punished. Streakcrows who chase lights into enemy forces gets punished. Just adapt your gameplay.

And if the problem is your urbanmech - STFU since you have as a IS only player the first time the experience all Clan light pilots deal with - **** speed.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 10 April 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[dario03]

Kuritaclan, on 10 April 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

Just a question. Why does this thread plop out now? Streak Crows are around since the first day of community warfare? Idk but while light rushs worked in first place clans did adapt to it with getting there dropdeck changed to set around one quarter of their over all value to specifically deal with this tactik. So what has changed, that i didn't saw complains and light buff wishes before, but now they plop out?

The hardest thing to do is legging the light with common weapons, lrms will sometimes get outrund, ppfld dmage needs lead and is problematic if not in part of the mech since convergancy and terrain will help that shots will not hit the same enemy part @ near range or even miss a part of the damage if for example the weapongroup have 2 ppfld weapons split to both arms. So SSRMs are the mostlikly way to deal with lights and they spread well, so that everything above medium will soak up the heatintensiv spread damage of SSRMs easy. Lasers with longer beam duration needs a very steady aim to hit the legs, going for the toso it gets most time outtwisted. So what exactly is the problem of a weapon that does server a special purpose, but is weak against another half of the tonnage range.

I don't see the problem right away. BAP only counter within a certainrange. If the Light has ECM he runs out of this range and the target lock will disappear. Tag is better for leading, but you need the constant aiming to hold the mech in lock, narc is ok but ammo dependend and a bit slow, so that it can easy miss on fast mechs.

At least if a light has boarderline syndrom and runs into the enemy forces it will get punished. Lights running in the open without using cover appropiat get punished. Streakcrows who chase lights into enemy forces gets punished. Just adapt your gameplay.

And if the problem is your urbanmech - STFU since you have as a IS only player the first time the experience all Clan light pilots deal with - **** speed.

These threads have been around forever. Even before clans came out and even before we knew exactly how CSSRM would work people were talking about how having 30+ streaks with extra range would wreck lights.

[Gyrok]

dario03, on 10 April 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

These threads have been around forever. Even before clans came out and even before we knew exactly how CSSRM would work people were talking about how having 30+ streaks with extra range would wreck lights.

Dario, I know who you are

As for lights and streak boats...streaks are the only hard counter for lights, and they are limited to close range, are easily countered by ECM stacking, are vulnerable to elevation differences, are negated by radar dep use with cover, spread damage because of the "bone mechanic", and are mostly ineffectual against heavy and assault mechs.

Unless you have supreme luck you do not even get a component destruction for 2 volleys.

[dario03]

Gyrok, on 10 April 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

Dario, I know who you are

As for lights and streak boats...streaks are the only hard counter for lights, and they are limited to close range, are easily countered by ECM stacking, are vulnerable to elevation differences, are negated by radar dep use with cover, spread damage because of the "bone mechanic", and are mostly ineffectual against heavy and assault mechs.

Unless you have supreme luck you do not even get a component destruction for 2 volleys.

Well I guess that depends on what we count as a hard counter. Also are there hard counters for mediums, heavies, and assaults? And do we need hard counters? Other weapons work good at taking out lights as long as you can keep hitting one spot or just use sheer force.

And I know who you are too. And yes Gyrok I know you know who I am, but did you know that I knew that you knew?

Edited by dario03, 10 April 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Escef, on 07 April 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Show us on the wire-diagram where the bad missiles touched you.

I've run a Streak36 Mad Dog, I call BS on this idea about how over powered Streaks are. Try using them yourself and tell me how good they are.

Well the Streak Dog must be good, came up a ramp on Mining Collective in an untouched Urbie, around to corner came a Streak Dog who one-shot me.
72 points are supposed to be random but to one-shot an untouched Mech, a lotta those 36 missiles had to go to one spot.
Streak spread is different than LRM or SRM spread.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

There's a bit of confusion about the accuracy of Streaks and SRMs in TT BT going on in this thread.

On the to hit roll- yes, srms are just as accurate as streaks.

HOWEVER

Once fired on a successful to hit roll, all Streaks will ALWAYS hit the target, while usually only 50-75% OF SRMs fired will actually connect with the target.

So those saying Streaks are more accurate in TT than SRMs, are technically correct,

...the best kind of correct.

[LordBraxton]

OMG I can't brawl in my light mech!!!!! This is definitely a 'nerf rock! -scissors' post. Bring an ERPPC pants and ruin their day.

Edited by LordBraxton, 10 April 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[Flak Kannon]

That made me spit out a bit of yogurt at work..




Show us on the wire-diagram where the bad missiles touched you.

[Gyrok]

dario03, on 10 April 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Well I guess that depends on what we count as a hard counter. Also are there hard counters for mediums, heavies, and assaults? And do we need hard counters? Other weapons work good at taking out lights as long as you can keep hitting one spot or just use sheer force.

And I know who you are too. And yes Gyrok I know you know who I am, but did you know that I knew that you knew?

If the other weight classes could travel at speeds that prevented focused fire from being able to reasonably hit the same component multiple times then yes, there would be.

A single firestarter played well can out tank an atlas. I have seen it as often as I have seen a light mech stop and get one shot by a bystanding mech.

The closest thing to a medium hard counter is an assault mech, the closest thing to a heavy mech counter is an assault mech, and the closest thing to an assault mech counter is a light mech.

Ironically, assaults and lights are the hardest mechs to play...guess there is a reason for that.

[Khobai]

Quote

Streaks aren't in a weird spot because of lore, they're in a weird spot because PGI felt the need to make them into an "always hit" RNG-targeting system.

This. Streaks do not always hit in tabletop. They simply dont consume ammo or heat when they miss. That is a subtle but important difference.

[Haji1096]

Gyrok, on 10 April 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Streaks are less effective than gauss and pulse lasers, and well aimed SRMs. They are far less effective than IS ACs too.

Do you steer clear of gauss mechs, SRM boats, energy boats, and IS dakka boats too...?

If you cannot accommodate playing for all those plus streak boats, then you are not really a light pilot. Find something you can play effectively since you are not a light pilot.

It is absolutely ok to be a terrible light pilot and scared of your shadow in lights. I am about a solid B tier light pilot. Some matches I am a hero, some matches I am a zero. Depends on how it turns out. Watch adiuvo and some of the top tier light pilots to see what I am talking about. You cannot be scared to drive a light and you cannot be scared to die at all.

Light pilots, the good ones, are typically a bit off in the head. Not being mean, but light pilots have a different mentality and take it as a challenge. They just do it until they figure it out...they refuse to let it get to them, and refuse to accept that they cannot do something because XYZ reason.

People who want to be light pilots and do not have the mentality or the skill set are simply kidding themselves. Driving lights will make you a better pilot in all mech weight classes, but it does not mean you are supposed to be a light pilot.

Accept it, or adapt and overcome. That choice is yours, but lights are not in a bad place, and streaks are most certainly not OP.

Against all those other loadouts, I would at least have a chance to evade a shot. I absolutely accept better players killing me with weapons that require actual skill. Let say hypothetically, I'm in a JR7F. That gives me approximately 100 m range band (360-460) where I can apply damage to a Streak boat safely. It is much more difficult to out manuever a Stormcrow (relative to other medium/heavies) and even more difficult to out maneuver a Stormcrow with streaks.

You used many words to make your argument, but it boils down to "Get better and adapt." Yet you do not follow your own advice: calling for nerfs to the TDR ERPPC build and also creating a "petition" to stop Clan XL Engine nerf.


After further review, I did not go far enough with my previous recommendations:

• Machine Guns should be buffed back to previous level
  
• Lights should get free ECM
  
• Speed Tweak should increase light speed by 32.2%
  
• Jump Jets on lights should be 12.37 times more powerful

The above numbers have been validated by an exhaustive and intensive scientific study. Of course, I will not be providing the study itself because the method I used is proprietary.

Edited by Haji1096, 10 April 2015 - 11:42 AM.

[Gyrok]

Haji1096, on 10 April 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Against all those other loadouts, I would at least have a chance to evade a shot. I absolutely accept better players killing me with weapons that require actual skill. Let say hypothetically, I'm in a JR7F. That gives me approximately 100 m range band (360-460) where I can apply damage to a Streak boat safely. It is much more difficult to out manuever a Stormcrow (relative to other medium/heavies) and even more difficult to out maneuver a Stormcrow with streaks.

You used many words to make your argument, but it boils down to "Get better and adapt." Yet you do not follow your own advice: calling for nerfs to the TDR ERPPC build and also creating a "petition" to stop Clan XL Engine nerf.


After further review, I did not go far enough with my previous recommendations:

• Machine Guns should be buffed back to previous level
  
• Lights should get free ECM
  
• Speed Tweak should increase light speed by 32.2%
  
• Jump Jets on lights should be 12.37 times more powerful

The above numbers have been validated by an exhaustive and intensive scientific study. Of course, I will not be providing the study itself because the method I used is proprietary.

Because the TDR 9S was not just a little "out of line"...it was absurd to have a sniping mech that could brawl as well, or better, than many brawling mechs. The community agreed it was overquirked...when firing 4 ERPPC alpha strikes can happen *in spite of ghost heat* things are broken.

Also, the Clan XL engine does not need a nerf...look at clan and IS balance...how crippled do you want clans to be? Do you even want it to be fair? Should a locust just be able to rack up death star in a single pub queue match with zero effort?

Seriously...get over yourself.

EDIT: If you drive a mech capable of 140+ kph, and cannot escape a mwch going 107 kph, that is entirely your fault. Adapt and overcome.

Edited by Gyrok, 10 April 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Khobai, on 10 April 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

This. Streaks do not always hit in tabletop. They simply dont consume ammo or heat when they miss. That is a subtle but important difference.

Streaks always hit when fired in table top. So unless PGI makes them not fire in a certain state...oh..wait. Streaks are actually the weapon that operates closest in form to its TT counterpart,

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 10 April 2015 - 12:06 PM.