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Streakcrow Balance

Balance

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#321 Questia

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 12:04 AM

I think all this QQ is going on long enough. I may have neither the skill nor the experience that you guys may toss in my face to prove your point, but I have on-the-ground play to prove mine, and I don't need screenshots to show it.

Now this is not based on any side. While I may have some subconscious biases (not to mention any discussion here tends to have an opinion), none of these are made consciously. tl;dr, hear me out, and prepare for a wall of text that tries to explain the situation.

The point? Even in ideal conditions, a Streakcrow is NOT the easiest way to splat a light 'mech. Nor is it an OP hard counter against lights, either. The truth is that:

Streakcrows, like anything, can be easily countered even by their targets of choice.

First, let's address the theories.

Whoever said that the Streakcrow carries an LBX-60 and considers it OP based on that has certainly never played one. It has been said again and again that the streaks rely heavily on RNG to determine what part they aim at, unlike LBX where at 150m or less it's already a pin-point (to those who try to do pinpoint with a Streakcrow: you can't, not at 50m, not even at 25m). This is where a lot of us get confused - I said aim at, not hit.

The difference should be obvious: if a streak was aiming at the right arm and the light runs rightward from the streak's perspective, there's a good chance it hits the left torso or left arm instead. Of course, the streaks aiming at the left torso still hit there or the left arm, so the damage gets concentrated to two or three points, going 30 and 20 respectively. Definitely not an LBX-60, but powerful enough, so we see the problem.

This is the light's dilemma: should he just run straight from the Streakcrow's perspective to keep the spread intact, or should he run sideways to avoid its allies' shots? Hindsight is 20-20, he should run in a straight line because only the Streakcrow is hunting him and its allies are relying on him to splat the light, but of course the light runs on reflex and messes up. If the light doesn't, though, it can live for a long time (ironically, new players mess this up less than veterans).

Real anecdote: I had a trial Raven take four whole salvos to take down - that's 240 damage, and he was just running in straight lines all that time. What killed him? No, not legging - CT death. That alone is contrary to what we think of when referring to Streaks. Of course, the situation was one-off, but the point is, it happened. Streakcrow is not OP, and I lost all my ammo and armor trying to reach for that Raven and getting blasted by his teammates.

To put that in context, a Lasercrow with decent aim can two-hit that Raven from further away with no risk to itself - one to take out a leg, and another to burn down the other leg. 82 damage, with the first 41 already rendering that Raven DOA. (I know, this isn't a customized Raven, but still! If a Lasercrow can't splat a Raven's leg in one alpha, what more for the Streakcrow with its spread damage?)

Now that the theory has been handled, let's talk about the Streakcrow in playing terms.

Take for example an ideal condition: a massive brawl in River City, lights zipping left and right - a Streakcrow's ideal home. The lights thrive in chaos, the Streakcrow is there to bring order to chaos. If there's a light harassing the assaults, the Streakcrow's job is to splat them, or at least drive them away.

The problem starts with the lights' distinct advantage of chaos. To put it simply, lights are faster, more maneuverable, and just plainly are more unpredictable. The Streakcrow never knows which way they'll turn, and even with Target Decay countering Radar Deprivation, they can still negate its advantage by simply taking a sharp turn where your streaks won't see them through. Wham! That's the sound of streaks hitting terrain. A wasted salvo.

If in case they can't just dodge them to the side... well, I did say "a massive brawl", right? The lights almost always have teammates nearby, and the Streakcrow can do nothing but do glorified sandblasting as said teammates rip it apart. Notice I said 'teammates', not 'assaults', the Streakcrow just isn't made for anything BUT 1:1 lighthunting. This results in either a retreating Streakcrow or a dead Streakcrow. Buh-bye, the light is now free to backstab again.

Of course, these are both in ideal conditions. What if we put the Streakcrow in a more meta-ish situation? Take for example Tourmaline Desert. Deathball, poking. What does the Streakcrow do? Nothing, especially if the enemy has ECM (BAP only counters one at 240m, people!) That's one less mech that goes in a firing line, and oftentimes this can make or break a game.

If the Streakcrow goes out of the line, it dies a horrible death. I just saw a fellow Streakcrow in Canyon Network die to concentrated fire from my team's firing line (mind you, this is after dueling a Warhawk that wasn't configured for brawling). He was utterly helpless - nothing was within 360m, and he was torn apart by laser and AC fire and whatnot. Not a good way to die.

Once the team gets close and the brawling starts, maybe here the Streakcrow can do something. Sure, there are less opportunities for lights to get to cover. But if the Streakcrow tries to take advantage of that, it will be rudely reminded of the lights' allies through a hail of fire that rips them apart in less time than it takes to say "TTK is too low, PGI please fix".

Now, there are indeed situations that the Streakcrow does shine. There are two situations here, and both of them are dependent on teammates (as is the rest of the game to be honest).

The first is as an escort for assaults. This is what the lights are referring to when they say the Streakcrow is denying them their major advantage, and that is a valid complaint. After all, not all lights are ERLL Ravens, and some of them do need to get in close to do their thing *cough* my little Locust-1E *cough*, so naturally denying them that chance cuts deeply into effectiveness.

But that also cuts into the Streakcrow's effectiveness as well: if the assaults it's escorting lose the pokefest and die, that leaves the Streakcrow vulnerable to either the enemy's assaults blasting it to bits, or multiple lights pouncing on it and dancing it to its doom. It's a trade-off both ways.

The second situation is as a mop-up mech. Naturally, lights also shine when they are the only ones left alive and their enemies are badly wounded; they can strike from anywhere and fade before the weary ones can respond. Repeat that for how many times that is necessary, and bam! Lights win. The Streakcrow, however, is there to stop that - if it is alive at that point, which isn't that hard since it doesn't bother to participate in the tradeoffs early game. It rips apart internals, just as SRMs do in TT (weird, huh?), and it takes care of lights. Win-win, Streakcrow is OP in here.

All these things, and we haven't even gotten to the good part yet: how to counter Streakcrows as a light.

Method one: treat it as you would an assault. Dash by it, always stay on its back, jab it in the leg, profit. I've downed Streakboats as a Locust, and certainly Firestarters and Ravens can splat one as well way before the Streakcrow can.

Method two: call in your big buddies to kill it, or jump on it with your fellow lights. Again, Streakcrows are only good in 1:1 lighthunting, and otherwise the combined firepower is just too much for it. Can't beat a Streakcrow alone? Call a friend, and beat it down! One salvo can't kill you unless you are already severely wounded, after all.

Method three: just stay away from it. A Streakboat can't be in all places at once, and can't look in all directions at once, either. So if you catch it not looking at you, ignore it and stab its buddies. You can even combine this with Method 1 and splat its legs while it's distracted. Presto! No more lighthunter, go and kill! And if he decides to give chase, remember that you are faster than him, you can take advantage of terrain (no jumpjets for the Streakcrow and the Streakdog! D: ) and he has a good chance of getting tunnel vision. Do the Locust Bait!

The conclusion: There are situations when the Streakcrow rules, and there are situations that it sucks. It's just like any other mech. It's just like the snipers, the LRM boats, the laservomit Clanners, the SRM brawlers. It's like the ERLL Ravens, the SPL Locusts, the MPL Firestarters, the 5-6 UAC/5 Direwolves, and the Gaussjager - what do they all have in common? They are all powerful, but counter-able.

There's a reason why the Misery can topple a Dire Wolf. There's a reason why laservomits are the meta. There's a reason why ERLL Ravens can be ripped apart by SPL Firestarters and yet be superior against most brawlers, why laservomits die in a brawl, why a Locust can carry a match. And the reason why? They are in their respective niches, and the closer the niche is to the general playstyle of the game, the more 'meta' they are.

Streakcrows are not OP. They are just as easily countered as anything else, and they are just as powerful as anything else in their own niche.

I don't really want to say l2p, as it sound so arrogant, and I don't like that at all. But seriously, as it needs mentioning, since there are just some light mech players that are stubbornly holding the opinion that streakboats are super-OP no-skill hard counters to their kind:

I don't care how badass you are when playing lights. If you can't find a way to counter even one streakboat, l2p now.

And for those who say that Streakboats are too easliy countered:

Find an opportunity, and use it. Just like everyone else.

This has been a message from a Streakboat owner who also plays a Locust. I do not intend to be biased, but certainly it has ended up to be this way. If you have anything to say for or against this post, please do so, as it helps either hold to an opinion that is right, or admit my fault for proposing an incorrect opinion. But if you don't have anything constructive to say - if you have nothing but ad hominem arguments or other forms of faulty arguments - please, don't bother.

Thank you, and good day :)

Edited by Questia, 18 April 2015 - 12:09 AM.


#322 Kuritaclan

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 12:20 AM

View PostShinVector, on 17 April 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:


To my understanding is this one of the difference between SSRM and LRM.
No need to maintain lock. Lock fire.. SSRM will home towards targets (bones) and will hit unless obstructed.

I believe it is due to the issue you cannot dumb fire SSRM, it will fly towards its target or last target, whatever it is...
Would require some testing to verify...

Too bad were don't have moving targets in testing grounds.

What i can tell is if i loss lock for instant because ECM kicks in out of the range of the BAP the ssrms don't will follow any longer. I'm also curious if PGI has two trackings each for lrm and ssrm or are they both the same. Lrms how ever you can see it better if you loss lock, they don't follow the target anymore, untill you get the target lock back and then the missiles turn towards immediately (what locks sometimes strange) and get back on track to hit the locked target. So it seems a bit wiered watching the clip and didn't saw the ssrms do behave like.

#323 ShinVector

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 12:37 AM

View PostGyrok, on 17 April 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:


Play ERLL raven with ECM.

Avoid streak crows

Profit


Who says I didn't ? Told you.. I have been a light pilot for since 2012... Did everything possible.
It's value has gone down considerably since quirks.

View PostKuritaclan, on 18 April 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

What i can tell is if i loss lock for instant because ECM kicks in out of the range of the BAP the ssrms don't will follow any longer. I'm also curious if PGI has two trackings each for lrm and ssrm or are they both the same. Lrms how ever you can see it better if you loss lock, they don't follow the target anymore, untill you get the target lock back and then the missiles turn towards immediately (what locks sometimes strange) and get back on track to hit the locked target. So it seems a bit wiered watching the clip and didn't saw the ssrms do behave like.


Well.. To me its been like that during the days the Jenner D was the Streak Light king. Streaks can bend over 90 degree no problem at highspeed light battles.

Were you watching where the SSRMS were going ?
You only need the initial lock to fire SSRMS and they fly straight to the target.

SSRMs has a totally different target system from LRMs.

Edited by ShinVector, 18 April 2015 - 12:41 AM.


#324 ShinVector

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 01:41 AM

View PostQuestia, on 18 April 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:


The point? Even in ideal conditions, a Streakcrow is NOT the easiest way to splat a light 'mech. Nor is it an OP hard counter against lights, either. The truth is that:

Streakcrows are not OP. They are just as easily countered as anything else, and they are just as powerful as anything else in their own niche.

I don't really want to say l2p, as it sound so arrogant, and I don't like that at all. But seriously, as it needs mentioning, since there are just some light mech players that are stubbornly holding the opinion that streakboats are super-OP no-skill hard counters to their kind:

I don't care how badass you are when playing lights. If you can't find a way to counter even one streakboat, l2p now.

Thank you, and good day :)


Well you certainly should NOT go after a Streakcrow in a Locust !
Streakcrow Pounce ggclose. ;)


Edited by ShinVector, 18 April 2015 - 01:46 AM.


#325 CrushLibs

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 05:42 AM

Can't fix stupid

#326 Telmasa

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 02:40 PM

If it had the same range as all other SRMs, and/or it had some steeper penalties for insta-gib alpha strikes, it wouldn't be an issue.

If SSRMs really were a niche weapon, why would so many players be willing to take NOTHING BUT Streak6s, as opposed to some lasers or other weapons?

As someone mentioned earlier, SSRMs can have little problem hitting torso sections - it's just random. I can take only two streak6s and kill the Commando on the snowy forest map in just a couple salvos - because it's *random*. Someone taking 5 Streak-6s and going through over 200 shots killing that same commando is either trying to make it look bad or getting absurdly unlucky.

#327 ShinVector

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 08:50 PM

View PostTelmasa, on 18 April 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

If it had the same range as all other SRMs, and/or it had some steeper penalties for insta-gib alpha strikes, it wouldn't be an issue.

If SSRMs really were a niche weapon, why would so many players be willing to take NOTHING BUT Streak6s, as opposed to some lasers or other weapons?

As someone mentioned earlier, SSRMs can have little problem hitting torso sections - it's just random. I can take only two streak6s and kill the Commando on the snowy forest map in just a couple salvos - because it's *random*. Someone taking 5 Streak-6s and going through over 200 shots killing that same commando is either trying to make it look bad or getting absurdly unlucky.


Actually.. I thought about it.

The issue is actually the easy of getting locks.
If you want to compare with TT the RNG for 'Roll to Hit' with normal weapons and 'Roll To Fire' are the same thing. Dice rolls.
Basically meaning it was a lot harder to get a lock to fire in TT, I assume... Some TT guy let me know if Streak6 obliterates lights in TT as well..

Anyway... Just way too easy to get locks in MWO.

#328 Tyman4

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 09:06 PM

Let there be no mention of my Cheesy 6 strk 6 maddog with 4 smalls and like 5 tons of ammo plus CAP.

That thing was invented for one and only one reason...GDAM firestarters and there ASDFIACLEJFAOJKEOSFK!...ing 8 sml pulse BS! Sometimes I just need to vent and blow them to heck!

Yes Come to me my child. Come and FACE your DOOM! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Also this is not very effective against large targets, especially assualt mechs, That is because the damage is not to a specific location and the streaks generate the same heat as normal srms. Your damage may be high but a king crab or banshee will still kick your teeth in one v one...

So it is counterable...just not really by light mechs...

Tyman4





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