169 replies to this topic

[Juodas Varnas]

Honestly? I think clanners are just spoiled by Timbergods and Doomcrows.
After you use one of them, all mechs feel 'unplayable' in comparison.

Most of these 'unplayable' clan mechs are as good and if not better than their IS weight-counterparts (ignoring the horribly over-quirked chassis of course).

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 11 April 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[RavensScar]

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any consensus as to why the Summoner is a bad mech. Hit boxes, heat efficiency and hard points have all been mentioned.

Heat efficiency - it's dead easy to reach 35%+ efficiency in Smurfy while still running a 40+ point alpha. That still compares very well to a lot of builds out there.

Hard points - max 6. The same as the Catapult, Dragon, Quickdraw and Cataphract.

Hit boxes I can't comment on, but don't seem to hold back the Thunderbolt.

I'm just curious that it compares very favourably to most heavies in the game, but frequently gets made out to be Quickdraw levels of bad.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

RavensScar, on 11 April 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Hard points - max 6. The same as the Catapult, Dragon, Quickdraw and Cataphract.

Its more a combination of Hardpoints + weight available. Two few hardpoints to make good use of lightweight weapons; not enough weight to make efficient use of fewer, higher weight weapons.

The mechs you listed have options to deal with having 6 Hardpoints by freeing up more space. The Summoner/Thor does not.

[LordKnightFandragon]

RavensScar, on 11 April 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any consensus as to why the Summoner is a bad mech. Hit boxes, heat efficiency and hard points have all been mentioned.

Heat efficiency - it's dead easy to reach 35%+ efficiency in Smurfy while still running a 40+ point alpha. That still compares very well to a lot of builds out there.

Hard points - max 6. The same as the Catapult, Dragon, Quickdraw and Cataphract.

Hit boxes I can't comment on, but don't seem to hold back the Thunderbolt.

I'm just curious that it compares very favourably to most heavies in the game, but frequently gets made out to be Quickdraw levels of bad.

Its the amount of space and tons it gets and the fact that its laden down with like 6 JJ and yet JJ are utterly useless.

Summoner is the quintessential poptart mech and yet MWO has JJ nerfed to the point of useless so the SUmmoner's key asset is completely useless and is now just hindering it badly. Give the Summoner the like 5-6t worth of JJ and you might see it be better.

I can never come up wtih a good build on it in smurfy...

[Yokaiko]

RavensScar, on 11 April 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any consensus as to why the Summoner is a bad mech. Hit boxes, heat efficiency and hard points have all been mentioned.

21.5 tons of pod space.....so heavy loadouts are off of the table, add to that no FF no endo, 4 hardwired heatsinks and 5 tons of hoverjets™

RavensScar, on 11 April 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

I'm just curious that it compares very favourably to most heavies in the game, but frequently gets made out to be Quickdraw levels of bad.

Because its not that good. I doesn't tank well (limited hardpoints force symmetrical layouts) doesn't have the weight free to use heavy energy, doesn't have the hardpoints to laser vomit, clan ballistics suck.

So that leaves gauss/llas snipy-bot....jumpping streakcrow for the low low price of 15 tons to your drop deck and......?

I quite literally carry heavier loads on IS mediums.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

I quite literally carry heavier loads on IS mediums.

But if CERPPC were not **** and the LBX didnt suck and LRMS were somehow better on it, the Prime loadout would be plenty deadly really.

a 12-13 dmg CERPPC popping you at 800m, then in close, an LBX ripping you to bits, alongside its PPC.....its a brawler hit and run mech, but its hoverjets dont allow that...

[Yokaiko]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

But if CERPPC were not **** and the LBX didnt suck and LRMS were somehow better on it, the Prime loadout would be plenty deadly really.

a 12-13 dmg CERPPC popping you at 800m, then in close, an LBX ripping you to bits, alongside its PPC.....its a brawler hit and run mech, but its hoverjets dont allow that...

....that is a lot of ifs

Plus even if they gave us CB JJs back, the mech would STILL lack punch, specially the prime.

Edited by Yokaiko, 11 April 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[InspectorG]

Sorbic, on 07 April 2015 - 08:05 PM, said:

Call me optimistic but these small MG quirks have me a weeeeeeee bit hopeful that they will be giving MG a general buff. /crosses fingers.

MG will need damage buff, and USE A SPECIAL HIT MECHANIC. RoF will work...at about x3 the normal rate. Assuming im right about how this quirk works, thats 30 damage in 10 seconds(forever in a brawl). So 2 MG on a Slummoner is 60 damage in 10 seconds bar crits.

IMO, MG and flamer should have REDUCED damage to armor and BUFFED damage to components.

Range for both should be @150m

Each has a duration of fire like a laser, which once 'burned' has a cooldown. Duration = 3 seconds for full damage. Cooldown = 5 seconds. Like a Gauss, only 2 can be used at once to help offset boating. MG ammo recalculated for total USES not individual bullets. 1 ton = 10 uses?

Now the fun part:
Role is a brawl weapon but different from SRM or LBX

So, during beam duration all you need to do is hit the enemy ANYWHERE. As long as enemy is hit, ALL exposed components get damaged similar to LRM spread.
So 1 flamer or MG will do 10 damage over 3 seconds spread over ALL open components.
Crits happen as normal and may be quirked per chassis/variant.

Good for bralwers. Allows damage to enemy components while twisting/defending vs incoming damage as long as you keep the reticle over the target somewhere.
Helps certain light mechs (ie, commando) can unlock arms, and move but apply pressure to cored components.

Will put XL users at more disadvantage and may skew towards more STD usage. This might incease TTK slightly in a global manner.

[Burktross]

TBH I'd rather have an overquirked thunderbolt abombination and a prompt fix of the situation happening to clam mechs as opposed to being left in the dust. The Summoner is too beautiful to be left in the dust.

Edited by Burktross, 11 April 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Ultimax]

RavensScar, on 11 April 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any consensus as to why the Summoner is a bad mech. Hit boxes, heat efficiency and hard points have all been mentioned.

Heat efficiency - it's dead easy to reach 35%+ efficiency in Smurfy while still running a 40+ point alpha. That still compares very well to a lot of builds out there.

Hard points - max 6. The same as the Catapult, Dragon, Quickdraw and Cataphract.

Hit boxes I can't comment on, but don't seem to hold back the Thunderbolt.

I'm just curious that it compares very favourably to most heavies in the game, but frequently gets made out to be Quickdraw levels of bad.

A lot of players expect their clan mechs to be superior to IS heavies, but simply don't want to say as much.

"If it's not the Timber Wolf, it's crap!"

Or they glorify IS builds that no one at all even plays anymore, like builds where you put a 280XL into a Cataphract, go Warhawk speeds at 71kph and risk easy ST destruction to fit "more guns" in them.


I'd be perfectly happy if the Summoner had a few more energy hardpoints in the torsos or similar, but while yes it's not the Timber Wolf - it still compares favorably vs. a lot of IS heavies.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 April 2015 - 08:20 AM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 10 April 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

Fixed next patch.

It was fixed this patch...

http://mwomercs.com/...86-07-apr-2015/

Quote

Gauss explosions are protected by CASE again.

I'm not so sure about everyone, but 4 CERMEDs+Gauss is actually pretty good on the Summoner.. but if you wanted magical miracles over a Timberwolf or Hellbringer... good luck with that.

There's not many good builds on a Summoner, but the best build is pretty usable, and the alternatives (for the most part) would make it subpar. There's very little build diversity honestly (although the 5 ASRM6 build is fun).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 April 2015 - 08:22 AM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about everyone, but 4 CERMEDs+Gauss is actually pretty good on the Summoner.. but if you wanted magical miracles over a Timberwolf or Hellbringer... good luck with that.

It is good, I think it's just not the build a lot of people want to play.


Gauss + 4x CERMLAS
Gauss + CERPPC
5x ASRM 6s


Those are all solid builds, they just aren't T1 like the TBR & HBR in the Heavy Slot.

[Yokaiko]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

It is good, I think it's just not the build a lot of people want to play.


Gauss + 4x CERMLAS
Gauss + CERPPC
5x ASRM 6s


Those are all solid builds, they just aren't T1 like the TBR & HBR in the Heavy Slot.

I wouldn't run guass plus ER-PPC alone on an IS heavy either.....
x5 ASRM6 has no back-up weapons AND requires that you are face hugging
Guass and 4 lasers I can do on a hunchback that isn't the size of a bus.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

It is good, I think it's just not the build a lot of people want to play.


Gauss + 4x CERMLAS
Gauss + CERPPC
5x ASRM 6s


Those are all solid builds, they just aren't T1 like the TBR & HBR in the Heavy Slot.

Well, the Summoner should be rocking dakka (like dual CUAC5s), but given the state of Clan ballistics (and limited tonnage), it's not even a conversation starter.

Besides, the Hellbringer would do the same w/o JJs but with ECM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

I'd be perfectly happy if the Summoner had a few more energy hardpoints in the torsos or similar, but while yes it's not the Timber Wolf - it still compares favorably vs. a lot of IS heavies.

I think the only IS heavies the Summoner compares favorably, or even keel, to are the non 1N Dragons, Quickdraws (which I like personally), and Catapults.

I'd for sure take even a Cataphract 1X over a Summoner no problem.

[InspectorG]

mogs01gt, on 07 April 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

The Summoner prime quirks really make no sense. Why do CD quirks on the ERPPC when the mech already cant handle the heat produced by it????

So its either playing the TBR, or a TBR or a TBR....Splash in a Crow here or there.....

Summoner is in Design Hell.

PRIME(excuse pun) example of BT not having parity with MWO.

Ferro was worthwhile in BT(cost constraints and weight saved in NON-BOATING meta).

IMO, Summoner was the run ' gun heavy that flanked and harassed until it was time to commit. Mobile with long range weapons. Hard to hit and runs cool.

ERPPC in MWO is too hot and too slow. You need 2 to be worthwhile but if heat was adjusted, 3 flirts with OP. Needs MOAR quirk to use just one. Think Cicada-C...assuming PGI wont open up Endo for the poor.

LRMs...nope. Next.

Clan ACs are at a disadvantage compared to the IS ones. LBX sucks in the MWO meta, though spread reducing quirks may mitigate this to a viable degree.
Now if LBX critted like BT...different story altogether. Spread would be WELCOME. 1 pellet = 1 destroyed equip. That would likely be OP.

Summoner in BT get 3 BIG weapons with decent ammo supply for BT. The ERPPC does most of the work, LRM to help at range once a component is open/or to help open them. LBX finished with crits.

MWO, those weapons are sub-par in those amounts. Dual ERPPC becomes viable damage-wise but is gimped by heat.
Dual AC > AC2 is impossible...you will not have enough ammo for the MWO fire demand.
Best you can hope for is ONE big gun with the standard issue 3 tons ammo. WEAK compared to other Clan heavies. Gauss, 4erml...Stormcrow can run more than that.

Endo would have freed up tonnage for ammo or another big gun with modest ammo.

LAZOR BOATing
Well, you gots 4E...make it count. Other heavies get 5+E. Slummoner is Slum. Plus the E are in the low slung arms. Side Torso PODS with 2E each would fix a LOT of this and fit the Clan LAZORVOMIT meta.
Im waiting...


SPLAT
Viable and should be good with the spread reduction quirks. If you like combat up close and personal. BUT...most other Clan mechs can do this as well if not better.

NARC...now if Summoner got x2 RANGE on it...i might carry one. 10 second buff is nice, but who cares about such a peripheral system on such a bust -*ss mech?

MG...needs a redo.

AMS...lols. Just slap the Summoner in the face just ONE more time, PGI. PLZ!?!?!?!?

Agility quirks would be apropos but if Prime is gonna rely on 1 ERPPC and 1 dakka, needs to have FASTER accel/deccel/. Faster reverse speed also. Faster turn rate.
Speed tanking for those big hitboxes and exposure-cost to get those arms into play.

My favorite robot is the poster child of how NOT to mech in MWO.

Inspector is sadface.

[InRev]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 08:20 AM, said:

There's very little build diversity honestly (although the 5 ASRM6 build is fun).

That falls back on weapon balance issues. PPCs of all types are over-nerfed. Clan UACs are lol, but that's partly because Clan lasers are so good that, if Clan UACs were good too, then the IS would get roflstomped. LBX is still a joke weapon, even heavily quirked, and LRMs are bad against average to good players (and the stream nature of Clan LRMs exacerbates this issue).

Current weapon balance issues basically shoehorn most Clan mechs into very limited builds and if your particular robot doesn't do that build well, you're basically boned. When you add in the model issues that certain robots (Nova being wide as ****, Warhawk being a Dire Wolf in disguise, Adder being stupidly large for a 35-tonner, Mr Gargles in general), it really compounds the problems. Unfortunately, in a stroke of absurdly bad luck (or design, idk) the bad model robots also seem to have with bad hardpoints or limited pod space.

[Ultimax]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I wouldn't run guass plus ER-PPC alone on an IS heavy either.....
x5 ASRM6 has no back-up weapons AND requires that you are face hugging
Guass and 4 lasers I can do on a hunchback that isn't the size of a bus.

Good for you?

Sounds like you aren't a team player if your worried about backup weapons.

The 5x ASRM 6 build is a team build.


Please show me the Hunchback build that has JJs, has Gauss, has 3x LLAS worth of firepower and range - show me how it travels at 93 kph and doesn't die when it loses a ST.

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Well, the Summoner should be rocking dakka (like dual CUAC5s), but given the state of Clan ballistics (and limited tonnage), it's not even a conversation starter.

Is there some manifest destiny stating it should be running 2x UAC 5s?

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Besides, the Hellbringer would do the same w/o JJs but with ECM.

Yes, I already noted that the HBR is T1.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 April 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Yokaiko]

...So anyone going to tell me there is any way to save Gargoyle or that its better than...well anything....

[InspectorG]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

.


I'd be perfectly happy if the Summoner had a few more energy hardpoints in the torsos or similar, but while yes it's not the Timber Wolf - it still compares favorably vs. a lot of IS heavies.

This would fix SO much. Easiest fix. Pod geometry cant be THAT hard to slap some laser lenses on it and call it a day.