169 replies to this topic

[Summon3r]

mogs01gt, on 07 April 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

The Summoner prime quirks really make no sense. Why do CD quirks on the ERPPC when the mech already cant handle the heat produced by it????

So its either playing the TBR, or a TBR or a TBR....Splash in a Crow here or there.....

Yea I'm at a loss on the lack of progress on making the summoner chassis remotely respectable and especially the prime. As I've said before the cn9-d gets 40% lbx10 cool down so why not here it's a bloody 3 hard point mech until this mech can deliver more fire down range it is junked. Which is to bad as i an beyond bored of tbr.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Is there some manifest destiny stating it should be running 2x UAC 5s?

Not really, but I'd like to think such a build is actually viable... as it will never beat a dakka Jager, but it should at least pretend to.

Multiple Clan UAC5s are only useful on a Direwolf, so having clan ballistics not stuck should be something to be worked on (and, when is that Clan UAC velocity buff coming anyways?)

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

...So anyone going to tell me there is any way to save Gargoyle or that its better than...well anything....

NotMWHighlander did suggest to me something along the lines of +10% speed. While I don't think it's the greatest gimmick, but I'd like to think some day the Gargles would terrorize a few Timberwolves occasionally... It honestly sounds like fun.

Mcgral18, on 11 April 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

TT Construction rules make it garbage.

Give it MWO construction rules, it would be a pretty kickass robot. Moving 83.5KPh with 31 tons of pod space, with the same 6 DHS (one externally mounted in either ST) with an XL375 and Endo+Ferro.
Or 37 tons of pod space without those 6 DHS.

Dual Gauss 80 tonner? Gauss+lasers+adequate heatsinks? Excessive heatsinks with heavier lasers? That's...about it.

The best thing we're likely to get is Endo instead of Ferro, which gives us 1 more ton. Or Endo+Ferro, which gives it 4 tons (to 24).

Those 7 tons from the XL400 to XL375 would just be fantastic. It's fated to be a terrible robot, due to TT construction rules, which IS gundams simply ignore.

I actually like the idea of just being able to move around the "locked" DHS (which is an expansion of the Warhawk "unlock" DHS idea) if engines were unlocked to a degree. Even if you wanted to make the Warhawk or Timberwolf slower (mechs that would benefit from an engine size reduction), you'd still have to equip/carry the # of total "locked" DHS as minimum... but they could be placed however you'd wish... so, it's not a strict tonnage tradeoff and there will be increased crit usage as a result (with the Timberwolf with both FF+Endo, it would kind of be a PITA instead of a favorable bonus).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 April 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Not really, but I'd like to think such a build is actually viable... as it will never beat a dakka Jager, but it should at least pretend to.

Is the Dakka Jager even a build to beat?

It's a one trick pony that dies easy - I have zero motivation to play my Jagers these days.

Can the Dakka Jager wake up tomorrow and boat SRM 6s or run a 40 point Laser Alpha at 400-500m?


Not every mech needs to be able to do exactly what every other mech can do.

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

I actually like the idea of just being able to move around the "locked" DHS (which is an expansion of the Warhawk "unlock" DHS idea) if engines were unlocked to a degree. Even if you wanted to make the Warhawk or Timberwolf slower (mechs that would benefit from an engine size reduction)

The Warhawk's engine is almost perfect, that's one of the best things about it (although if I were optimizing completely it would be a 350 with Endo instead of Ferro and pick up 2 crit slots).

I'll also say that High Speed is also one of the best aspects of the Timber Wolf.

I might reduce mine to 350 if that were an option, but it's fine without that option and I don't think I'd ever go lower than 350.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 April 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

The Warhawk's engine is almost perfect, that's one of the best things about it (although if I were optimizing completely it would be a 350 with Endo instead of Ferro and pick up 2 crit slots).

I'll also say that High Speed is also one of the best aspects of the Timber Wolf.

I might reduce mine to 350 if that were an option, but it's fine without that option and I don't think I'd ever go lower than 350.

Fun fact: You could fit an XL375 in the Wubhawk if you used Endo + FF at the same time, with about 26 DHS. The construction system can be so fun sometimes...

[Zensei]

FupDup, on 11 April 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Fun fact: You could fit an XL375 in the Wubhawk if you used Endo + FF at the same time, with about 26 DHS. The construction system can be so fun sometimes...

FupDup owns posts like this, listen to what he says, this is one (1) of the guys that makes this a better game.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 11 April 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Fun fact: You could fit an XL375 in the Wubhawk if you used Endo + FF at the same time, with about 26 DHS. The construction system can be so fun sometimes...

And if my Banshee's could use Clan XLs they'd be insane.

We can't always have what we want.

[Stealth Fox]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

And if my Banshee's could use Clan XLs they'd be insane.

We can't always have what we want.

Your banshee already is insane with Shorter duration LLs, the ability to fire 3 LLs with out ghost heat, 4 if you are careful, higher weapon points for peeking then most clan mechs and the ability to shield with less important limbs.

If you think a Banshee is worse then Clans, then you're a fool and do not know hoq to take advantage of your mech.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Is the Dakka Jager even a build to beat?

It's a one trick pony that dies easy - I have zero motivation to play my Jagers these days.

Can the Dakka Jager wake up tomorrow and boat SRM 6s or run a 40 point Laser Alpha at 400-500m?


Not every mech needs to be able to do exactly what every other mech can do.

I don't think you'd have to take my point too seriously. It's the idea of said dakka... it's not hard to side-core a Jager. The Summoner is a sturdy platform, but it doesn't even dakka well at all.

My point is... having the Summoner not stay useless is not a good enough reason. What's the point of torso ballistics that are high mounted if you can't do anything useful with them? That's ultimately my point.

Although, I'm sure someone is screaming out there that putting Gauss in side torsos made for an MG should never happen (hello and sorry K2).

Quote

The Warhawk's engine is almost perfect, that's one of the best things about it (although if I were optimizing completely it would be a 350 with Endo instead of Ferro and pick up 2 crit slots).

I'll also say that High Speed is also one of the best aspects of the Timber Wolf.

I might reduce mine to 350 if that were an option, but it's fine without that option and I don't think I'd ever go lower than 350.

The Warhawk's engine is fine for what it is (not that a Stalker needs blazing speed anytime soon).

The only issue is durability... in which having access to bigger engines would at least mitigate.

Timberwolves don't have a durability issue... although I'd fear a certain few would disagree.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 April 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

If worse comes to comes... let's ask for the Summoner-G.

http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=670

*insert "all the missiles" meme*

If we can't have good ballistics, let's have ALL THE MISSILES.

10 Missile hardpoints @ 70 tons... Suckonalldemissiles.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

I don't think you'd have to take my point too seriously. It's the idea of said dakka... it's not hard to side-core a Jager. The Summoner is a sturdy platform, but it doesn't even dakka well at all.

That's true it doesn't dakka well.

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

My point is... having the Summoner not stay useless is not a good enough reason.

This is where I disagree.

If the Summoner is useless then we can say that for the vast majority of IS heavies.

Making it do "dakka" well, is not going to change the mech that it is.

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

What's the point of torso ballistics that are high mounted if you can't do anythinguseful with them?

I put a Gauss in mine, it's pretty useful.


Look, if you really want to do UACs, you can do this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f1a2a2c36684284

It's really not too far from the kind of build you can potentially run in a Cataphract, without going for a sub-300XL.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...372e6c9bc3b3e3e

[HlynkaCG]

Sort of off topic but, All mechs with standard structure should get a boost to thier internal HP.

Make Endo an actual trade-off and a lot of these problems solve themselves, mechs like the Summoner and Gargles becomes tankier than their "optimized" counterparts.

[Yokaiko]

HlynkaCG, on 11 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

Sort of off topic but, All mechs with standard structure should get a boost to thier internal HP.

Make Endo an actual trade-off and a lot of these problems solve themselves, mechs like the Summoner and Gargles becomes tankier than their "optimized" counterparts.

.....and every IS mech gets easier to break. EVERY IS mech, I don't remember the last time I didn't put endo on anything that I built.

[HlynkaCG]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

...and every IS mech gets easier to break. EVERY IS mech, I don't remember the last time I didn't put endo on anything that I built.

Is that really a problem though? A lot of Heavies and assaults run standard structure because they are short on crits and they would be getting a buff.

Heck it might just give FF + Standard structure mechs like the Zeus and Gargoyle a reason to exist.

[MauttyKoray]

cSand, on 07 April 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

what's funnier is that there are actually people, out there, playing this very game, who don't need easy mode mechs to succeed. Those same people pilot Awesome, Vindies, etc etc to great effect. THose very same people tend not to ***** and moan too much about anything being OP

In the land of minmax meta fest though, there will always be only a handful of mechs used. Cause outside the box thinking is just too... ashdjahdadads

what was I talking about again?

Sup, Summoners and Novas need a better boost. The OP quirks they've heavy handed have gone to already viable mechs. Giving them to Summoners and Novas would only finally make them viable in regular play. Also, Summoners need better JJs and a medium movement archtype, just like the Gargoyle should have a Heavy's movement instead of an assault.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 11 April 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[Yokaiko]

HlynkaCG, on 11 April 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

Is that really a problem though? A lot of Heavies and assaults run standard structure because they are short on crits and they would be getting a buff.

Heck it might just give FF + Standard structure mechs like the Zeus and Gargoyle a reason to exist.

Name one that isn't a troll build.

All of my IS assaults, that's like 6 Awesomes, every Atlas but the Boar's Head, all of the Highlanders, every Zeus, every Crab and every Stalker have ES.

[Eider]

RavensScar, on 11 April 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any consensus as to why the Summoner is a bad mech. Hit boxes, heat efficiency and hard points have all been mentioned.

Heat efficiency - it's dead easy to reach 35%+ efficiency in Smurfy while still running a 40+ point alpha. That still compares very well to a lot of builds out there.

Hard points - max 6. The same as the Catapult, Dragon, Quickdraw and Cataphract.

Hit boxes I can't comment on, but don't seem to hold back the Thunderbolt.

I'm just curious that it compares very favourably to most heavies in the game, but frequently gets made out to be Quickdraw levels of bad.

Just that compared to timbergods and crowlords they are 'bad'. I mean those extra long range clan weapons must be totally useless!

[Yokaiko]

Eider, on 11 April 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Just that compared to timbergods and crowlords they are 'bad'. I mean those extra long range clan weapons must be totally useless!

No compared to Pharcts, Grasshopper and most Dragons it doesn't stack up well.

[Bloody]

It will never be fixed as the design of many mechs will never go off the design board if MechWarrior Mechanics were applied. Some designer will say write up the WarHawk and the first thing the another engineer will say, No, it has no high hard points, and the arms are too low, scrap it.

but but they do look different from each other.. and that's about it. i personally think if mechs were designed like this their arms would be usually raised upwards above their shoulders for over the hill firing and only lowered when shielding or moving

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

If worse comes to comes... let's ask for the Summoner-G.

http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=670

*insert "all the missiles" meme*

If we can't have good ballistics, let's have ALL THE MISSILES.

10 Missile hardpoints @ 70 tons... Suckonalldemissiles.

[HlynkaCG]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Name one that isn't a troll build.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9df604588fd0340