169 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

...So anyone going to tell me there is any way to save Gargoyle or that its better than...well anything....

Well...dont get your hopes up. Doesnt the gift variant have a nice arm pod with lots of E?

Gargles and other 'fast but lightly armed' fat robots would do better if CW had a RECON mode. you know, lighter decks with recon objectives.

[Yokaiko]

InspectorG, on 11 April 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

Well...dont get your hopes up. Doesnt the gift variant have a nice arm pod with lots of E?

Gargles and other 'fast but lightly armed' fat robots would do better if CW had a RECON mode. you know, lighter decks with recon objectives.

You can do 7 lasers on Gargoyle now.

......and it over heats the second cycle because the thing has even LESS pod space than summoner, the GRASSHOPPER of all things is a better entergy boat, and it jumps.

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

Please show me the Hunchback build that has JJs, has Gauss, has 3x LLAS worth of firepower and range - show me how it travels at 93 kph and doesn't die when it loses a ST.

Please show me a Summoner with a sub-2 second guass cycle time.

[InspectorG]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

You can do 7 lasers on Gargoyle now.

......and it over heats the second cycle because the thing has even LESS pod space than summoner, the GRASSHOPPER of all things is a better entergy boat, and it jumps.




Please show me a Summoner with a sub-2 second guass cycle time.

Poor Gargles.

I really like the way it looks. Like that medic droid from Star Wars...

[Yokaiko]

InspectorG, on 11 April 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Poor Gargles.

I really like the way it looks. Like that medic droid from Star Wars...

There is quite literally no saving the prime with the current construction rules, it can only carry 4 tons of ammo over the LB-5Xs and SRM launchers.

........

[InspectorG]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Please show me a Summoner with a sub-2 second guass cycle time.

Gimmicky but i could live with that with the nice high hardpoint.

But given PGI's current flavor of Stock quirks...unlikely.

[Yokaiko]

InspectorG, on 11 April 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

Gimmicky but i could live with that with the nice high hardpoint.

But given PGI's current flavor of Stock quirks...unlikely.

....yeah ROF on summoner and gargoyle that either can't cool the ER-PPC as it is and/or doesn't have the ammo to support it.

[Koniving]

LordKnightFandragon, on 07 April 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

PPCs in general straight need buffs, 1300 velocity, either base or quirked is where we would see worth while improvements. 1200 is marginally noticeable in terms of hitting, but still not quite there.

One thing to remember is this: You're already able to speed up the ER PPCs as much as you want as a Clanner. Remember targeting computers -- those things that no one uses? They enhance ER PPC speeds. You can actually enhance them quite a bit using the TC alone, more than some quirks on the IS mechs manage to get.

By default with the right arm I get 20% faster reloads on ER PPCs (Energy + ER PPC cooldowns). 7.5%. With the prime left arm -- they were smart. Instead of general ballistics its an LBX velocity (a general ballistic velocity would have, in fact, increased ER PPC speed even more). Same is true of the LT/RT, if they gave ballistic velocity increases for the ACs... the ER PPCs would also get velocity bonuses.

But wait... I can add a Targeting Computer 8 and get...
+15% faster ER PPCs on top of 7.5% faster for 22.5% higher velocity ER PPC! ZOMG! OP! PLS NERF!

In order to keep my AMS and MG, however I opted to go with a TC7 for +13.5%, to get a total of 21% faster ER PPCs, saving me a ton and a slot.

To each their own. I can fire faster if I want to -- which is to make up for lacking TWO ER PPCs. Far as heat? Well if you can't handle the heat of 1 ER PPC then something is terribly wrong since it is colder than 2 ER PPCs that most other mechs can get away with easily even before the quirks. Generally this and maybe some lasers or missiles are about your only heat sources. If you can't manage that heat, then what the hell are you doing roasting marshmallows in the cockpit? Put out that camp fire you crazy narcissistic ******* and no, no you can't pour your whiskey on it.

My current ER PPC velocity with a TC7 computer is 1270.5 meters/second.

--------------

This is ALL the more reason for PGI to lock all quirk effects to SPECIFIC limbs for BOTH sides.

50% ER PPC bonus for the Thunderbolt's 1 Energy Hardpoint in the right arm that only affects the right arm? Well now that suddenly makes decent sense... It won't do a dang thing for all your other ER PPCs that you lined on the LT.

And given how "careful" they have to be to not accidentally give you 79% faster whatever because of the part combination giving global quirks... having the quirks be location specific instead just makes a lot more sense and they won't have to be as careful.

Edited by Koniving, 11 April 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Koniks]

cSand, on 07 April 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

Everyone so concerned with quirks and tiers and meta gaming they forget how to actually pilot a mech

SAD TIMES

This is a terrible argument. If players of equal piloting skill face each other, then MechLab skill and equipment selection becomes the deciding factor.

Regardless of what build you put on it, the Timber Wolf will do it better. There is no reason to take it unless you have a weight restriction in place. And even then, the Summoner's mobility is so much less useful for everything but poptarting that you'd probably take any of the 55-65 tonners to fill the role instead.

This isn't a learn to pilot. It's a flaw in the game mechanics. You really think pilot skill was the reason Clans, after getting nerfed all summer, still stomped the IS mechs before quirks?

Koniving, on 11 April 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

One thing to remember is this: You're already able to speed up the ER PPCs as much as you want as a Clanner. Remember targeting computers -- those things that no one uses? They enhance ER PPC speeds. You can actually enhance them quite a bit using the TC alone, more than some quirks on the IS mechs manage to get.

I like some of your ideas about how the mechanics should be changed to make for better gameplay but you're wrong here.

The Summoner hardpoint and tonnage limitations don't leave it viable builds with an ERPC+big TC. MGs or an LBX2 are the only ballistics it can take with enough ammo at that point. And an ERPPC with SRMs, Streaks and/or lasers still leaves it undergunned compared to most other Clan mechs, even if they ape the build. With improved JJs it'd still compare poorly.

Edited by Mizeur, 11 April 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Ultimatum X, on 11 April 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

A lot of players expect their clan mechs to be superior to IS heavies, but simply don't want to say as much.

*facepalm*
And you can expect objective opinion from that sort of guy?


The Summoner got multiple problem, hardwired JJ who are more useless than ever, especially for that mech.
Limited and few real possibility of loadout.

And the heat, damn the heat. That things is one of the easiest mech to overheat. Ironicly, it was know to be hard to overheat in the lore.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Koniving, on 11 April 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

One thing to remember is this: You're already able to speed up the ER PPCs as much as you want as a Clanner. Remember targeting computers -- those things that no one uses? They enhance ER PPC speeds. You can actually enhance them quite a bit using the TC alone, more than some quirks on the IS mechs manage to get.

By default with the right arm I get 20% faster reloads on ER PPCs (Energy + ER PPC cooldowns). 7.5%. With the prime left arm -- they were smart. Instead of general ballistics its an LBX velocity (a general ballistic velocity would have, in fact, increased ER PPC speed even more). Same is true of the LT/RT, if they gave ballistic velocity increases for the ACs... the ER PPCs would also get velocity bonuses.

But wait... I can add a Targeting Computer 8 and get...
+15% faster ER PPCs on top of 7.5% faster for 22.5% higher velocity ER PPC! ZOMG! OP! PLS NERF!

In order to keep my AMS and MG, however I opted to go with a TC7 for +13.5%, to get a total of 21% faster ER PPCs, saving me a ton and a slot.

To each their own. I can fire faster if I want to -- which is to make up for lacking TWO ER PPCs. Far as heat? Well if you can't handle the heat of 1 ER PPC then something is terribly wrong since it is colder than 2 ER PPCs that most other mechs can get away with easily even before the quirks. Generally this and maybe some lasers or missiles are about your only heat sources. If you can't manage that heat, then what the hell are you doing roasting marshmallows in the cockpit? Put out that camp fire you crazy narcissistic ******* and no, no you can't pour your whiskey on it.

My current ER PPC velocity with a TC7 computer is 1270.5 meters/second.

--------------

This is ALL the more reason for PGI to lock all quirk effects to SPECIFIC limbs for BOTH sides.

50% ER PPC bonus for the Thunderbolt's 1 Energy Hardpoint in the right arm that only affects the right arm? Well now that suddenly makes decent sense... It won't do a dang thing for all your other ER PPCs that you lined on the LT.

And given how "careful" they have to be to not accidentally give you 79% faster whatever because of the part combination giving global quirks... having the quirks be location specific instead just makes a lot more sense and they won't have to be as careful.

TC7? 1270ms? Its still only 10 dmg for 15 heat, or 20 for 30. Meanwhile, you can use a LL, LPL, a bevy of Medium lasers and get hit scan speeds for more dmg then they give heat, and still be allowed to mount your 1.4HS....

I would mount a TC on my Warhawk, if it had true dubs, giving it the proper 2.0 cooling power. Right now, even at 28 1.4HS, its getting 39 TT Cooling power, or about 5.9h/s cooling in MWO(Before skills and elite, 6.8 elite, 107 threshold). Give it the proper 56 that it should have, which in this game would probably translate to about 9 or 10h/s, then sure, I might lose the 7t in 1.4HS for a 15% increase in my velocity.

Maybe if this game wasnt about spamming out as much damage as possible and trying to quickly whisk the heat away. But 15% more velocity, only putting it at 1270ms, still 10dmg, 13.8 heat per shot is not worth the loss of cooling and threshold. I can get off about 8-9 shots atm. With fewer heat sinks, that is even less, whcih is even worse...I even stopped using AMS on my Warhawk for the 28DHS....

As for the heat, I have no real issue managing it, its just when im in with the enemy, there is no time to run off and cool down. If I stayed at range, a light would come chew my ass up. Sooo, I stay near the pack for cover from lights....one thing ive learned in thsi game, leave the pack, die fast.....no lone wolfing, which is kinda lame imo...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 11 April 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Koniving]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

TC7? 1270ms? Its still only 10 dmg for 15 heat, or 20 for 30. Meanwhile, you can use a LL, LPL, a bevy of Medium lasers and get hit scan speeds for more dmg then they give heat, and still be allowed to mount your 1.4HS....

I would mount a TC on my Warhawk, if it had true dubs, giving it the proper 2.0 cooling power. Right now, even at 28 1.4HS, its getting 39 TT Cooling power, or about 6.6h/s cooling in MWO. Give it the proper 56 that it should have, which in this game would probably translate to about 9 or 10h/s, then sure, I might lose the 7t in 1.4HS for a 15% increase in my velocity.

Quite mistaken.
You're actually getting this with 28 DHS in MWO.

Cooling time : 3 sec (for 1 ER PPC)
Cooling Rate : 5.20 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 90.24
Source.

On cold maps like Frozen City.
Heat Threshold : 112.8
Cooling Rate : 6.50 heat/sec
On hot maps like Terra Therma.
Heat Threshold : 79.4112
Cooling Rate : 2.08 heat/sec

Compared to tabletop:
Mech Heat Threshold: 30
Cooling Rate: 5.6/sec
Cooling power per 10 seconds: 56.
*Optional Heatsink Taxing rule: Heatsink threshold -- separate of mech threshold -- for the limit of heat that can be attended to by the heatsinks within 10 seconds without something melting: 61 heat. (Within any 10 second period if you have generated 61 heat, even if you cooled 56 heat, you will likely have melted 1 or more heatsinks in doing so).

So.. You'd get 5.2/sec cooling... compared to 5.6/sec cooling.
But you have more than three times the threshold.

In exchange, you are able to fire three times as fastafter the firing rate quirks.

See where the issue rests?

Quote

Maybe if this game wasnt about spamming out as much damage as possible and trying to quickly whisk the heat away. But 15% more velocity, only putting it at 1270ms, still 10dmg, 13.8 heat per shot is not worth the loss of cooling and threshold. I can get off about 8-9 shots atm. With fewer heat sinks, that is even less, whcih is even worse...I even stopped using AMS on my Warhawk for the 28DHS....

You're doing 10 damage on target, 2.5 damage to up to 2 adjascent sections, and you're still doing 15 heat per shot (I didn't see any heat generation quirks).. you've got triple 3x the threshold and a whopping -0.4 units cooling compared to the tabletop.

Trouble is, you're up against double the armor with 1x the damage and triple the firing rate.

----------------

Note that 3 seconds isn't counting the constant engine heat, which is what causes the other issues with cooling that you may frequently notice. The faster you go the more engine heat you produce. (Yay... For something only meant to go up to a max of 3 heat per 10 seconds for sprinting / MASC usage, I don't know why it manages to produce 0.25 heat per second while idle).

Here's the mathematical equation.

Threshold:
30 stock threshold + (X number Automatic Engine heatsinks[limit 10] *2) + (X number manually added heatsinks to include engine slot heatsinks *1.4) = base threshold + 20% heat containment for elite mech = actual threshold.
Cooling:
(X number Automatic Engine heatsinks[limit 10] *2) + (X number manually added heatsinks to include engine slot heatsinks *1.4) / 10 = base cooling power + 15% cool run for elite mech = actual cooling power.

Edited by Koniving, 11 April 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Koniving, on 11 April 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Quite mistaken.
You're actually getting this with 28 DHS in MWO.

Cooling time : 3 sec (for 1 ER PPC)
Cooling Rate : 5.20 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 90.24
Source.

On cold maps like Frozen City.
Heat Threshold : 112.8
Cooling Rate : 6.50 heat/sec
On hot maps like Terra Therma.
Heat Threshold : 79.4112
Cooling Rate : 2.08 heat/sec

Compared to tabletop:
Heat Threshold: 30
Cooling Rate: 5.6/sec
Cooling power per 10 seconds: 56.

So.. You'd get 5.2/sec cooling... compared to 5.6/sec cooling.
But you have more than three times the threshold.

In exchange, you are able to fire three times as fastafter the firing rate quirks.

See where the issue rests?



You're doing 10 damage on target, 2.5 damage to up to 2 adjascent sections, and you're still doing 15 heat per shot (I didn't see any heat generation quirks).. you've got triple 3x the threshold and a whopping -0.4 units cooling compared to the tabletop.

Trouble is, you're up against double the armor with 1x the damage and triple the firing rate.

On the Warhawk? YOu see no heat quirks?

Both arms for the Prime

7.5% Velocity, -4% PPC heat generation. Atleast they were like yesterday. Did PGI revise it? Warhawk has no cool down quirks, except for CD mod and Elite 5% skill.

And I thought I had been using that program wrong.....but yeah, it shows even more why the heck I wouldnt want to friggin use a TC over losing 1.4HS....

And in TT, cooling 5.6 per second would take all of like 6 seconds at the longest to lose that 30 heat. Ofc, I could only fire 2 PPC and then shiut down, so, 1, wait 1s, fire, wait 3s, fire, wait 3 more, fire...

In terms of MWO if 28DHS is 5.2Cooling, how would getting 56 vs 39 TT cooling translate? It wouldnt be 5.6, maybe in TT it is...but I think TT cooling and all that woulda been better anyway. So meh...

In TT, with the current 1.4s, I would have 39 Coolant, which is 3.9 vs 5.6.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 11 April 2015 - 11:38 AM.

[Stealth Fox]

Juodas Varnas, on 11 April 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Honestly? I think clanners are just spoiled by Timbergods and Doomcrows.
After you use one of them, all mechs feel 'unplayable' in comparison.

Most of these 'unplayable' clan mechs are as good and if not better than their IS weight-counterparts (ignoring the horribly over-quirked chassis of course).

Yall might wanna read the actual stuff being put on the forums and not make your self sound like a fool there butter butt. There where clear reasons why the clan mechs under perform and I dare ya to try and take one of the other mechs out for a spin, Low weapon points, lack of meaningful impact of lasers compared to IS Front Load Damage, and the fact that ridge peeking has always been an IS game means the other clan mechs suffer greatly.

And yeah, I haven't really seen ThunderBolts as the threat they use to be. But a Stalker, Fire Starter, or god forbid you are seen at ANY range by a Dragon will still ruin a Clan Mechs day.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Seph MacLeod, on 11 April 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Yall might wanna read the actual stuff being put on the forums and not make your self sound like a fool there butter butt. There where clear reasons why the clan mechs under perform and I dare ya to try and take one of the other mechs out for a spin, Low weapon points, lack of meaningful impact of lasers compared to IS Front Load Damage, and the fact that ridge peeking has always been an IS game means the other clan mechs suffer greatly.

And yeah, I haven't really seen ThunderBolts as the threat they use to be. But a Stalker, Fire Starter, or god forbid you are seen at ANY range by a Dragon will still ruin a Clan Mechs day.

And with IS quirks, its given IS the one Clan advantage of Range, but kept the IS advantages of better heat, better duration, better CD, better overall output.

IS AC5 is amazing when paired with 2. CUAC5s arent amazing until they are grouped in teams of what is it? 6 on a DireWhale?

[CyclonerM]

I do not understand exactly why the complaints about the Summoner Prime's ERPPC quirk, its stock loadout is one of the coolest configurations ever seen, what is the problem with heat?

[Mcgral18]

Yokaiko, on 11 April 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

...So anyone going to tell me there is any way to save Gargoyle or that its better than...well anything....

TT Construction rules make it garbage.

Give it MWO construction rules, it would be a pretty kickass robot. Moving 83.5KPh with 31 tons of pod space, with the same 6 DHS (one externally mounted in either ST) with an XL375 and Endo+Ferro.
Or 37 tons of pod space without those 6 DHS.

Dual Gauss 80 tonner? Gauss+lasers+adequate heatsinks? Excessive heatsinks with heavier lasers? That's...about it.

The best thing we're likely to get is Endo instead of Ferro, which gives us 1 more ton. Or Endo+Ferro, which gives it 4 tons (to 24).

Those 7 tons from the XL400 to XL375 would just be fantastic. It's fated to be a terrible robot, due to TT construction rules, which IS gundams simply ignore.

[Stealth Fox]

CyclonerM, on 11 April 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

I do not understand exactly why the complaints about the Summoner Prime's ERPPC quirk, its stock loadout is one of the coolest configurations ever seen, what is the problem with heat?

Even a awesome load out like that ended up being trash with how MWO works. just not enough to do anything with it, it needs more quirks, or at least more pod space to do anything ammo wise.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Seph MacLeod, on 11 April 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Even a awesome load out like that ended up being trash with how MWO works. just not enough to do anything with it, it needs more quirks, or at least more pod space to do anything ammo wise.

Like the 5t it would get if we could drop the loljets...

[Stealth Fox]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Like the 5t it would get if we could drop the loljets...

if only the loljets where worth something to the summoner.. or ..if they actually gave us directional jump jets like in MW2..

[Ursh]

I really want to like the summoner. PGI makes it difficult.

If all IS mechs have access to ES/FF, including the Urbanmech, which was always supposed to be last in line for advanced technology, than Clan mechs need it as well.