169 replies to this topic

[Kuritaclan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 11 April 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

YEah, if PGI cant quirk the CERPPC dmg, but doesnt want to buff it to a 15/15 then they should make like 3 different variants of it for each of the Adder, Hellbringer, Warhawk and Summoner Primes

For the Summoner Prime, a 15/15, 1250ms, 4.5s CD
for the Warhawk Prime: 13/15, 1250ms, 4.25s CD
Adder Prime: 13/15, 1320ms, 4s CD
Hellbringer Prime: 12/15, 1250ms, 4s CD.

Or simply buff the CERPPC for all Clan mechs to 13/15, 4.25s, 1150ms, then quirk the velocity on a few.

velocity quirks are the most unusfull quirks of all in the case of weapons with travel time on higher rang. - I'm ok with cd quirks, beam duration quirks heat quirks an what not, but velocity quirks sucks nuts, since you need a time to "learn the weapon new".

[Deathlike]

HlynkaCG, on 12 April 2015 - 01:42 AM, said:

Oh for *^%'s sake. If you are looking at strictly Alpha-Strike damage and not actual usage, you're doing it wrong.

Noone in their right minds tries to touch ghost heat unless they want to overheat faster. Unfortunately, Ghost Heat has conditioned some of us to build stuff the same way.

Who said you had to fire all 6 LL? It's been 3 (LL) and 3 (more LL) since the Ghost Heat change.

The fact you are using inferior builds... well... good luck with that.

[CptGier]

Kuritaclan, on 12 April 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

velocity quirks are the most unusfull quirks of all in the case of weapons with travel time on higher rang. - I'm ok with cd quirks, beam duration quirks heat quirks an what not, but velocity quirks sucks nuts, since you need a time to "learn the weapon new".

Lol, cool down quirks on a PPC are the least useful, espeically considering how muhc heat it generates for the dmg done. No, velocity quirks are some of the most useful, atleast then you can get your shots on target alot easier. YEs, you need to relearn the weapon, but the higher the velocity, the easier and better the weapon is overall.

[Deathlike]

Let me be clear about heat efficiency and mech builds.

Ideally, you'd like to see mechs with 50% heat efficiency in smurfy's... it usually has a great return on your firepower when you needed, especially under heavy fire.

The issue is that if you take this entirely to heart, this is problematic, as you aren't as effective or efficient as you could be.

For instance... boating SRMs is pretty heat intensive... so you do need some DHS to cover the usage when you need to spam as much as you need it.

HOWEVER, the role of SRMs is short range... as when you are carrying long range weaponry (LL, ERLL, PPC, etc.), you aren't actually generating heat for weapons that you shouldn't be firing anyways. Obviously as the distance closes, then it comes into play... but usually you would have to set up weapon groups to fire of the long range weaponry.... occasionally firing a few of them to supplement damage or a kill shot on a target. That is major factor in heat management.

Also, there is a notion of diminishing returns on DHS... in sense that you can have as many DHS as your mech carries, but if you decide to go fit as many DHS on a Atlas-RS (or Boar's Head) for just 4 Large Lasers... well, you're wasting a mech's potential. The idea is to put enough firepower you can sustainably use while being mindful of when you overheat.

For instance, how often does one not take the Jenner-F over the Jenner-D or K? The only times the others are more useful are for NARCing or chasing other Lights with Streaks (with the occasional supplemental SRM damage bump vs larger mechs). I've seen enough people running 4 Medium Laser Jenner-Fs and wonder why they even bothered? If you're not using the hardpoints to maximize the actual advantages it has, then you're not really building it well. There are some builds that would be better and/or escape the norm, but the reality is that if you focus solely on one attribute too often over others, you can be short changing yourself on better builds that come down the round (or that already exist). If you're not taking a 5th laser on the Jenner-F (usually a 5th medium laser), what the heck is the point?

There is no wrong way to build a mech necessarily... but there's certainly many ways to make a mech far more inefficient than it should be. It is not too hard to optimize a mech (and personalize it to your standards), but if you rely strictly on the #s and not in actual play... then you're not going to as effective as people that really take the time and thought to make the most of it.

[Kuritaclan]

CptGier, on 12 April 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Lol, cool down quirks on a PPC are the least useful, espeically considering how muhc heat it generates for the dmg done. No, velocity quirks are some of the most useful, atleast then you can get your shots on target alot easier. YEs, you need to relearn the weapon, but the higher the velocity, the easier and better the weapon is overall.

I don't like quirks, because it serves the purpous to make mechs special with a weapon system, what is not the idea at all behind weapons in Battle Tech. I see the need for velocity quirks, because the ppc in general is to slow. So making the ppc "playable" on some mechs is for me not usefull, when it comes down to playing all mechs i have in my hangar - if the simple solution is give the ppc in general the high velocity. I then be in the need to play every chassis a specific way, not the way i wanna play my mechs and it is fully counterintuitiv to the "omni-mech" concept used in mwo, where i can fit into a E/M/B Slot whatever weapon i wanna throw in. Thats my point, i wish to equip a weapon in a mech and it behaves mostlikely the same way it does on another. But Aiming with diffrent velocitys sucks nuts. Cooldown or other quirks do not have that much as an effect on the gameplay itself, because it does not indirectly influence the aim you "train". Having diffrent velocitys for the same weapon system just makes the aiming a rng game, till you played a couple of rounds with that specific mech and its diffrent velocity.

It creats a problem, that you are only consistent in your performancy, when you just and only use one mech with this special quirk to train and have the best result on this special velocity. So why i have other mechs wit E/M/B in the hangar? I do not know since, they will make my trained timings trash. I then can not play those anymore if i wanna stay most effective on one mech or i will risk to lose any sence for timings.

Therefore i haild the clanmechs up until now, since they didn't got slaped by such **** in first hand, i choose my ppc adder and it played the same way like my ppcs in the TBR for example.

[HlynkaCG]

Lord0fHats, on 12 April 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

It's really not. I'm not talking about cheesy "I can fire an alpha so hot it'll kill me" mechs. I'm talking about fitting so many heatsinks onto a mech that they start becoming redundant.

It really is. If your heat dissipation is less than your weapon cool-down those extra weapons become superfluous. What is the point of a mounting 9 ER PPCs or 6 LL if you can't actually fire them any faster than you would 5?

Yokaiko asked me to name a "non troll" standard structure build and I did and if you think those are troll-builds I think you need to seriously revise your definition of trolling.

Anyway, getting back on topic...

Lord0fHats, on 12 April 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Give them endo instead of Ferro. Seriously. If you have to pick one of the two, why would you ever pick the one that gives less weight over the one that would give more?

This is exactly the problem. The Summoner (and others) would be in much better shape if Ferro were actually worth taking over Endo in some cases. Like I said, give FF + Standard Structure mechs a reason to exist and a lot of these issues solve themselves.

[Ultimax]

HlynkaCG, on 12 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

This is exactly the problem. The Summoner (and others) would be in much better shape if Ferro were actually worth taking over Endo in some cases. Like I said, give FF + Standard Structure mechs a reason to exist and a lot of these issues solve themselves.

The difference between The Summoner with only CLAN Ferro and a hypothetical Summoner with only Endo should only be about 1.24 tons.


Clan Ferro is not as optimal as Endo, but it's closer to Endo than IS Ferro is.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 12 April 2015 - 09:26 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

Ultimatum X, on 12 April 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

The difference between The Summoner with only CLAN Ferro and a hypothetical Summoner with only Endo should only be about 1.24 tons.

Clan Ferro is not as optimal as Endo, but it's closer to Endo than IS Ferro is.

True.

But Endo is still superior in all cases, which is why I suggested a bonus for mechs that use standard structure.

[Widowmaker1981]

HlynkaCG, on 12 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

It really is. If your heat dissipation is less than your weapon cool-down those extra weapons become superfluous. What is the point of a mounting 9 ER PPCs or 6 LL if you can't actually fire them any faster than you would 5?

Because its not about standing in the open chainfiring? 9 ERPPCs is stupid, yes, because you cannot fire them all at once or close to it, but 6xLL is NOT, because you can fire 2 groups of 3 several times before overheating, and the name of the game is 'Do as much damage to the target as possible as fast as possible, and then get behind cover before taking return fire'

The 6xLL with 20DHS stalker is a vastly better build than 4xLL+2xML+22DHS

[bad arcade kitty]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 April 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

The 6xLL with 20DHS stalker is a vastly better build than 4xLL+2xML+22DHS

i just checked with a heat simulator and 4ll 2ml 22 dhs has a bit higher dps in 30 seconds and is safer

i used 3 weapon groups for 2 lasers to avoid ghost heat

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 13 April 2015 - 04:09 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

HlynkaCG, on 12 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

If your heat dissipation

Seriously. Can we at least learn the game mechanics? The only thing in MWO that boosts dissipation is a 7.5% boost available to every mech in the skill trees. Heat sinks do not boost dissipation. All they do is give a bigger buffer. Having a buffer bigger than is needed to support your guns is wasted weight.

Quote

seriously revise your definition of trolling.

That is pretty troll. But then again, I'm not sure how 'not being troll' makes the Stalker builds you linked earlier better than bad. Just because they're not MAXIMUM TROLLING doesn't mean they aren't bad builds.

Quote

This is exactly the problem. The Summoner (and others) would be in much better shape if Ferro were actually worth taking over Endo in some cases. Like I said, give FF + Standard Structure mechs a reason to exist and a lot of these issues solve themselves.

Well, it would be helped but at the end of the day weight isn't the issue that Clan mechs struggle with. The Summoner in particular suffers most from being the biggest easier to hit target on the battlefield. Seriously those hitboxes are so easy.

[Kuritaclan]

Lord0fHats, on 13 April 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Well, it would be helped but at the end of the day weight isn't the issue that Clan mechs struggle with. The Summoner in particular suffers most from being the biggest easier to hit target on the battlefield. Seriously those hitboxes are so easy.

Well you are right, that the SMN has a big hitbox But this isn't his problem, if he could do with his JumpJets the role he is made for. And as long as this isn't possible, he is stuck to be a common Heavy who lives for the damage he can sustain in a fight, what is directly linked to the tonnage he can spend into wepons and other components + ammonition. But here the rules of outfiting for clans made by PGI kick the SMN again in the nuts, because he is insignificant compared against his little brother the HBR and vs his bigger one the TBR - which both have more Tonnage to spend, better Hardpoints, goodies like ECM or the said hitbox size.

[HlynkaCG]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 April 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

Because its not about standing in the open chainfiring? 9 ERPPCs is stupid, yes, because you cannot fire them all at once or close to it...

I actually agree with you. Which is why I maintain that 3 65 damage alpha-strikes in a 10 second period is superior to 2 54 damage strikes.

Lord0fHats, on 13 April 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

I'm not sure how 'not being troll' makes the Stalker builds you linked earlier better than bad.

Beause I was replying to Yokaiko's assertion that "only trolls use standard structure" with multiple big alpha + high DPS standard structure builds. A stupid decision in hindsight, because now everyone wants to argue heat-sinks.

Lord0fHats, on 13 April 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Well, it would be helped but at the end of the day weight isn't the issue that Clan mechs struggle with. The Summoner in particular suffers most from being the biggest easier to hit target on the battlefield. Seriously those hitboxes are so easy.

Almost sounds like a durability boost is in order, oddly enough that is exactly what I was suggesting before the thread got derailed.

Edited by HlynkaCG, 13 April 2015 - 05:09 AM.

[Kuritaclan]

HlynkaCG, on 13 April 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

Almost sounds like a durability boost is in order, oddly enough that is exactly what I was suggesting before the thread got derailed.

And this is not a solution at all. Since damage output in this game is allways > then armor. More damage means faster killing your target, means more own armor left and finally means you can damage another mech/survive to live another fight.
And if you start to compensate higer damage to more dps+hp then it is highly situational who has a better outcome, what makes the balance over all mechs pretty bad.

[Knyx]

I had a few ideas regarding solutions to some of the lesser used clan mechs.

Gargoyle: Add 1 missile hardpoint to each side torso for all omnipods. Add the following quirks to each

SRM/S-SRM spread reduced by 10%
S-SRM lockon time reduced by 15%
SRM/S-SRM range increased by 8%

Change the current missile related quirks in the Ballistic+Missile hardpoint arms to the above as well.


For the current Duo energy hardpoint arm with C-ERPPC quirks, Double the % of the quirks.

I would also say give the garg endo, but test the above first.

Note: This would give the garg a specialization as a close range contender.


Mad Dog:
Also give it S-RM/LRM range and spread quirks on Side torsos. The Mad Dog serves well already as a glass cannon.


Ice Ferret:
I would say not only Endo, but give it a few free hardwired heatsinks (free as in no extra tonnage)

NOVA:

minor rework of energy quirks.

These should be more like

Reduced heat gen on energy weapons (like it is) AND increased heat dissipation but increased damage on overheat. The reduced heat gen on energy weapons and the increased heat disappation would have the be higher then now, which would make up for the negative quirk of increased damage on overheat. This would make the mech have great potential for a skilled user and potentially disastrous for those who Don't watch their heat or build poorly.

[Lily from animove]

Knyx, on 13 April 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

I had a few ideas regarding solutions to some of the lesser used clan mechs.

Gargoyle: Add 1 missile hardpoint to each side torso for all omnipods. Add the following quirks to each

SRM/S-SRM spread reduced by 10%
S-SRM lockon time reduced by 15%
SRM/S-SRM range increased by 8%

Change the current missile related quirks in the Ballistic+Missile hardpoint arms to the above as well.


For the current Duo energy hardpoint arm with C-ERPPC quirks, Double the % of the quirks.

I would also say give the garg endo, but test the above first.

Note: This would give the garg a specialization as a close range contender.


Mad Dog:
Also give it S-RM/LRM range and spread quirks on Side torsos. The Mad Dog serves well already as a glass cannon.


Ice Ferret:
I would say not only Endo, but give it a few free hardwired heatsinks (free as in no extra tonnage)

NOVA:

minor rework of energy quirks.

These should be more like

Reduced heat gen on energy weapons (like it is) AND increased heat dissipation but increased damage on overheat. The reduced heat gen on energy weapons and the increased heat disappation would have the be higher then now, which would make up for the negative quirk of increased damage on overheat. This would make the mech have great potential for a skilled user and potentially disastrous for those who Don't watch their heat or build poorly.

damage wise the nova already has great potential. It's just supersquishy and by this very unreliable.

[HlynkaCG]

Lily from animove, on 13 April 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

damage wise the nova already has great potential. It's just supersquishy and by this very unreliable.

The Summoner is in a similar boat actually. Energy + Missiles is pretty solid damage wise, ditto C-UAC5s + whatever. Like hats said, it's hit-boxes and comparatively low armor screw it over.

[Kuritaclan]

HlynkaCG, on 13 April 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

The Summoner is in a similar boat actually. Energy + Missiles is pretty solid damage wise, ditto C-UAC5s + whatever. Like hats said, it's hit-boxes and comparatively low armor screw it over.

For the energy part you do not have enough hard points compared to other class primus.
For the missle part you do not have enough free tonnage to load more missles as other mechs in the class.
For the uac5 part you do nothave enough free tonnage to boat them and load ammo to make it a usfull platform like the dire who overcome the uac spread by numbers of weapons to fire stream out of 5 to 6 uacs a stream that make up for the small damage each pellet has.

In the end the SMN has its Jump Jets which could made up for this lack of loadout tonnage, but they are so lackluster, that it does not benefit him enough to overcome the other problems (hitbox and "low armor" , the second one is only one in coparrision to the highly quirked mechs of the weight class)

[Ultimax]

Lord0fHats, on 13 April 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Seriously. Can we at least learn the game mechanics? The only thing in MWO that boosts dissipation is a 7.5% boost available to every mech in the skill trees. Heat sinks do not boost dissipation. All they do is give a bigger buffer. Having a buffer bigger than is needed to support your guns is wasted weight.

This is incorrect.


Adding more DHS does increase your rate of dissipation.



You can see it very clearly in smurfy's under weapon lab:


Gargoyle with 16 DHS




Gargoyle with 24 DHS





As you can see dissipation goes up from 3.27 > 4.55, which is about a 39% increase.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 April 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lord0fHats, on 13 April 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Seriously. Can we at least learn the game mechanics? The only thing in MWO that boosts dissipation is a 7.5% boost available to every mech in the skill trees. Heat sinks do not boost dissipation. All they do is give a bigger buffer. Having a buffer bigger than is needed to support your guns is wasted weight.

WHAT?!

Yes, they do. the amount of heat you dissipate every second = 0.2xEngine DHS + 0.14xExternal DHS. This value is multiplied by 7.5% or 15% by the efficiency tree.

Heat sinks are the ONLY thing that affect dissipation, stop talking gibberish.