57 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

>>>>> Yes jump jets need fixed. But they need fixed for all mechs so that is a topic for other threads <<<<

Summary for you skimmers.
1. More durability.
2. More agile.
3. More mid/short range fire power. LPL, LL, AC
4. Not a return to jump sniping or sniping at all.
5. Dragon Slayer will never be made a top tier sniper again by PGI so give it other weapons quirks so it can be useful.

Ok just wanted to start talking about Victor quirks. My desire is something that would make it better at the new mid range meta with its limited hard points but not give us ppc sniping again. I would also like the quirk foster a fast and agile Victor. The Victor is supposed to be a fast and agile 80 ton assault. Not a slow and lumbers under armored assault. It should be competing in the 70-85 ton range of mechs.

OK lets face it the main thing is if people are going to play it it need to offer something when comparing it to the TW. Since the TW is the standard all mechs in this weight range are judged by. And no it does not have to be as OP as the TW but just offer something in relation to it.

Here is what I think would work balance wise so that people play it but its not OP and does not brink back the front loaded PPC/AC sniping.

1. Make it more durable than the TW. (I think this should be done to IS mechs in general.) It is already a tough mech but does need to run XL engines. With todays firepower the left and right torso get shot out very quickly even when twisting etc. So lets give it GOOD left and right torso armor quirks. Even maybe a small center toro quirk.

2. Give it agility quirks since it is supposed to be agile. The Victor is limited on hard points so it tends to make you take a few larger heavier weapons. This in turn makes you take a smaller engine. And pretty soon its not fast and agile any longer its just under gunned and slow or average agility.

3. Give it more mid range and short fire power. This is where it is set apart from the TW and other Clan heavies. It will have a shorter duration but also shorter range. But with quirks it the heat and cool down will be reduced. So the Clan mechs will be better at long mid range range but the Victor will be better at a shorter mid range. (Compared to typical laser vomit Clan mech.). There does not have to a huge difference in range to make this work.

How to do it.

Dragon Slayer and K. Both of these mechs have three energy hard points. This is important now that IS mechs do not get ghost heat on 3 LLs or LPS. So lets give these mechs really good quirks for energy heat, energy cool down and a bit of range but not over doing it. This will give it a good solid short mid range punch. The LPS work really well here with the right quirks. Next lets give them a little bit of AC quirks and SRM quirks. This helps fill out the fire power on its limited hard points but at the same time leaving it open to many builds.

If we do this to the DS and K we will have nice mid/short range mechs that do not break the game.

Next the B. The B makes most sense as getting good UAC5 quirks and Laser quirks. Yes you could give is UAC5 and PPC quirks also. Personally I would rather not but hey lets see what happens.

Finally the S. The S is already a good brawler but just short range and lacking a bit in durability. I think just the changes to durability and agility is all it would need.

OK so there you have it. New Victor quirks that make them a real option to take in the 70-85 ton mech range without being OP.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 10 April 2015 - 08:03 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I agree with most, but I think the DS should actually have PPC quirks because it comes with one standard and quirks are supposed to buff the weapon types that come stock, and I think that is okay. If the DS kept its current quirks and just got the durability and agility bonuses you got here I think it would be fine.

The 9K could get the better laser quirks, and then it has a gauss rifle so give it gauss quirks.

9B, would focus primarily on ballistic cooldown

9S, leave as is

Just to reiterate, all Victors should get the armor and agility quirks.

[XX Sulla XX]

Hmm not sure honestly lots of stock weapon types are not great for the game. And the PPC AC DS sniper was such a problem for so long better to just be done with it for good. Because IF you give it PPC quirks they need to be good ones to be used. And if they are not good enough to give us lots of DS snipers then it is pointless to give it PPC quirks.

For the 9K and for all of them I would rather have family quirks. Ballistic instead fo guass. Energy instead of ML etc.

Yesthe 9B need ballistic quirks but would help to have some kind of energy quirks since it needs combined weapons to be useful unless you give it huge quirks. If you look at these mechs they just cant pack much fire power except the 9S.

I think we are very close to agreeing on everything. Just maybe not the DS quirks. Oh and I own a DS.

[Davegt27]

Quote

OP as the TW but just offer something in relation to it.

ok you lost me when you said my TW is OP

[XX Sulla XX]

Yes your Timber Wolf is over powered. Gman says it well. http://metamechs.com...des/timberwolf/

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 09 April 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[luxebo]

Dragon Slayer will probably remain as a poptart due to how the asymmetric hardpoints are and how it already gets gauss/ppc quirks off the bat atm. It might need a bit more but I'm fine if it stays partly poptart strong.

But the others aren't gonna cut it for poptart/long range firepower, unless we buff them (and even such I want them to be more brawly in some of the mechs).

Victor 9S should get missile (esp SRMs) buffs, including a goddamn missile tube update.
Victor 9B should get a lighter AC quirk (esp AC2s) as it has triple autocannon builds possible. Just need something for the AC2s to actually make em half viable and usable, like 30% heat reduction or some velocity/cooldown. UAC jam reduction or similar too will be cool. Overall ballistic buffs to round em off.
Victor 9K should be a mid range fighter, with lazor quirks like LL/LPL quirks to take advantage of mid range combat. Most likely duration and heat gen would be useful, esp if the duration was cut to 15-20% since it needs to back off into cover rather than stare at em.

More quirks can work but I would like DS to retain it's supposed long range fighting, along with K to be decently mid ranged (maybe Gauss + 3 LLs), but S be more reliant on missiles (mini-DDC build) and B be more dakka based with AC2s.

The rest shall be agility/ slight leg structure. I feel that is where the Victor needs armor due to the size/JJs. Maybe a bit on the arms. Torsos are fine, XL still works fine even in brawls.

BTW I don't understand why the heck PGI advocates stock quirks. It makes no sense for trying to buff their viability in that sense. I'm ok with family quirks, but make em a bit different (i.e. separate into just SRMs, just AC5/UAC5/AC2, just Large/Large Pulse, etc).

For the DS, I don't see anything else it can excel better at besides downright poptarting compared to the rest of the Victors. Worse convergence on the lasers + whatever ACs, less missile hardpoints, only one arm laser compared to triple in the K.

Edited by luxebo, 09 April 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Dragon Slayer will probably remain as a poptart due to how the asymmetric hardpoints are and how it already gets gauss/ppc quirks off the bat atm. It might need a bit more but I'm fine if it stays partly poptart strong.

Thing is if they make it an effective poptart where its worth playing then it becomes a problem. If its not a very effective poptart its not worth playing. Hopefully it can get general quirks.

Quote

Victor 9B should get a lighter AC quirk (esp AC2s) as it has triple autocannon builds possible. Just need something for the AC2s to actually make em half viable and usable, like 30% heat reduction or some velocity/cooldown. UAC jam reduction or similar too will be cool. Overall ballistic buffs to round em off.

Ac2s? Just needs general AC quirks. And UAC5s work better.

Quote

Victor 9K should be a mid range fighter, with lazor quirks like LL/LPL quirks to take advantage of mid range combat. Most likely duration and heat gen would be useful, esp if the duration was cut to 15-20% since it needs to back off into cover rather than stare at em.

Yep duration and heat would help a lot.

Quote

BTW I don't understand why the heck PGI advocates stock quirks. It makes no sense for trying to buff their viability in that sense. I'm ok with family quirks, but make em a bit different (i.e. separate into just SRMs, just AC5/UAC5/AC2, just Large/Large Pulse, etc).

I think they are going to do more family quirks now.

[Hillslam]

meh I put down my Victors when they nerfed their movement and introduced the gauss charge mechanic. haven't picked them up since. they were ruined, never recovered. only good now for snipe. yuk. *sad face*

Edited by Hillslam, 09 April 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Eh, I would rather they leave the DS how it is, and just add agility/durability quirks then give it laser quirks. That just seems so wrong..

[luxebo]

XX Sulla XX, on 09 April 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Thing is if they make it an effective poptart where its worth playing then it becomes a problem. If its not a very effective poptart its not worth playing. Hopefully it can get general quirks.
Ac2s? Just needs general AC quirks. And UAC5s work better.
Yep duration and heat would help a lot.
I think they are going to do more family quirks now.

The DS' problem is that it was made to poptart with the assymetric ports, along with no other options really for brawling compared to B/S. It had Gauss + PPC off the bat instantly, clearly showing it's role.
B's advantage is the triple ballistics, which either means mixed ballistics, or AC2s. That should be benefited slightly if not a bit more since AC2s have fallen in terms of gameplay.
I agree otherwise though.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Eh, I would rather they leave the DS how it is, and just add agility/durability quirks then give it laser quirks. That just seems so wrong..

Then it would still not be viable probably. Since it is setup for mid range only the agility quirks would not be very helpful. And it would still be way under powered. Remember the DS is a mech made up by PGI. There is no lore and no history it can be anything. And personally I do not want to be forced to play my hero mech as only a PPC sniper.

Quote

The DS' problem is that it was made to poptart with the assymetric ports, along with no other options really for brawling compared to B/S. It had Gauss + PPC off the bat instantly, clearly showing it's role.
B's advantage is the triple ballistics, which either means mixed ballistics, or AC2s. That should be benefited slightly if not a bit more since AC2s have fallen in terms of gameplay.
I agree otherwise though.

The problem is for the DS to be good as a sniper it would have to be a bit OP. I mean you can use it now and its OK already. But because its just OK no one uses them at all really. And if you make them OP at sniping to many people will use them. And PPC sniping I believe is bad for the game. One reason PGI moved the game away from that meta. Now the DS is a made up mech so it can be anything. And the one thing that sets it apart is the large engine cap. What it needs is to be able to bring decent fire power when running a larger engine. And right now without decent quirks it does not do that. Basicly you end up with medium firepower in an assault chassie. Really even with a medium size engine thats what you end up with. The medium mechs with quirks outclass it. The heavies with quirks/clan out class it. The assaults with quirks/clan out class it. So its either going to have to be a REALLY good sniper and get the hate again. Or it can get good energy, ballistic and missle quirks and be a good all around mech.

>>> Lacks DPS, Range and Alpha strike compared to both assaults and heavies and even many mediums now.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a36beae5178edd

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa85a4069cbad6c

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9677d6fdbceafb7

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9233b9b480e5dcd

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 10 April 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Here is an idea. What if we made every Victor able to bring the AC20? Then on the DS and K you could run 3 LPL and an AC20

[Alistair Winter]

I think you're right that the Victor needs more agility and durability. The only build that give the Victor proper firepower for an assault mech in the current meta involve the AC20, MPLs and SRMs, or dual UAC5, MPLs and SRMs. Which means that you can only match the firepower of other mechs at close range. Which means you need agility and durability.

But I would still like them to do something about jump jets. The VTR-9K can have 6 tons of jump jets. It'd be nice if they did something more than gently carry you over small streams and muddy puddles. At least give me a good horizontal leap.

[Hillslam]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 April 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Here is an idea. What if we made every Victor able to bring the AC20? Then on the DS and K you could run 3 LPL and an AC20

I've been wishing for this since forever. It makes NO sense for them to have arbitrarily given several of the models lower arm actuators merely to lock out the AC20. The Victor IS the AC20 mech.

XX Sulla XX, on 09 April 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

*stuffs*

I just noticed this and had to ask: what is a Victor doing on a Necron tomb world?

[STEF_]

I can understand that JJ were nerfed because of that weird poptarting thing.... but ...

WHY agility was nerfed in Victors?

I just stopped piloting them anymore since that """nice"" patch.

It may be a """nice""" PGI marketing strategy, since I've found that agility in the new bought Zeus....
"Destroy old mechs, and sell new ones"


edit: I can say the same for nova, summoner, and many other subpar, that will never be decent anymore.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 10 April 2015 - 05:47 AM.

[kapusta11]

Poor Victor fell vitctim of a power creep, even quirked Awesome is more dangerous at close range.

Edited by kapusta11, 10 April 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Elizander]

XX Sulla XX, on 09 April 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

OK lets face it the main thing is if people are going to play it it need to offer something when comparing it to the TW Stalker. Since lets face it the TW Stalker is the standard all mechs in this weight range are judged by. And no it does not have to be as OP as the TW Stalker but just offer something in relation to it.

At least according to some people~ TW/SCR/HBR are already obsolete mechs.

Edited by Elizander, 10 April 2015 - 06:41 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I think you're right that the Victor needs more agility and durability. The only build that give the Victor proper firepower for an assault mech in the current meta involve the AC20, MPLs and SRMs, or dual UAC5, MPLs and SRMs. Which means that you can only match the firepower of other mechs at close range. Which means you need agility and durability.

Plus if you are playing with one or two people it makes it hard to play a close range mech. A mid range mech works much better for general play.

Quote

But I would still like them to do something about jump jets. The VTR-9K can have 6 tons of jump jets. It'd be nice if they did something more than gently carry you over small streams and muddy puddles. At least give me a good horizontal leap.

Agreed but that affects all mechs so thats why I am not talking about it here. Needs it own thread.

Quote

I've been wishing for this since forever. It makes NO sense for them to have arbitrarily given several of the models lower arm actuators merely to lock out the AC20. The Victor IS the AC20 mech.

I think they were trying to keep the fire power down back before clans came out.

Quote

I just noticed this and had to ask: what is a Victor doing on a Necron tomb world?

Doing what Victors do

Quote

edit: I can say the same for nova, summoner, and many other subpar, that will never be decent anymore.

I believe they are going to make some better. Probably need to nerf some clan stuff and buff other mechs.

Quote

Poor Victor fell vitctim of a power creep, even quirked Awesome is more dangerous at close range.

Yes very sad.

[luxebo]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 April 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Then it would still not be viable probably. Since it is setup for mid range only the agility quirks would not be very helpful. And it would still be way under powered. Remember the DS is a mech made up by PGI. There is no lore and no history it can be anything. And personally I do not want to be forced to play my hero mech as only a PPC sniper.

The problem is for the DS to be good as a sniper it would have to be a bit OP. I mean you can use it now and its OK already. But because its just OK no one uses them at all really. And if you make them OP at sniping to many people will use them. And PPC sniping I believe is bad for the game. One reason PGI moved the game away from that meta. Now the DS is a made up mech so it can be anything. And the one thing that sets it apart is the large engine cap. What it needs is to be able to bring decent fire power when running a larger engine. And right now without decent quirks it does not do that. Basicly you end up with medium firepower in an assault chassie. Really even with a medium size engine thats what you end up with. The medium mechs with quirks outclass it. The heavies with quirks/clan out class it. The assaults with quirks/clan out class it. So its either going to have to be a REALLY good sniper and get the hate again. Or it can get good energy, ballistic and missle quirks and be a good all around mech.

>>> Lacks DPS, Range and Alpha strike compared to both assaults and heavies and even many mediums now.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3a36beae5178edd

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa85a4069cbad6c

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9677d6fdbceafb7

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9233b9b480e5dcd

I think it still is sorta forced into the role of poptart, even it's stock weapons are basically made to poptart. I think DS can be made into a good sniper, but not OP level, by making only PPC + Gauss velocity. Making the targets hit easier while making cooldown slow enough makes it good in a long range trade but not in a close range engagement. This would set it apart from the other Victors. The asymmetric layout of hardpoints just make this desired to be a sniper, which other Victors can't effectively be anymore. The high engine cap is something I think the 9M and PB should actually be able to use, maybe even more speed quirks or something that can make it worthwhile. (BTW Awesome is still terrible, no doubt. No effective use whatsoever on it in at least pugging).

The builds sent are all either better with PPC combo (which then again leads to poptarting) or is better on the K (asymmetry over easily disarmed parts). So it ain't as good overall there though it could be.

The S was made to brawl, so some missile quirks would be good on it (cooldown? heat gen? much much less spread? just fix the damn tubes?). The B has the extra ballistic, so it should be quirked to utilize that (cooldown and heat gen would be interesting, along with less jam chance). The K was made to laser combo, so it should have duration quirks on that. And the DS was made for asymmetry of how it was back then, giving the perfect poptart mech for one-two years. The engine level is still high on all four Victors, so it's not limiting any Victor in speed, unlike the 300 vs 400 rating engines for Awesomes.

Overall, while Victors do need some help (esp B/K), there are others (Battlemaster, Garg, Highlander, and Awesome) that need even more help. DS being a sniper would make them different since K/B/S all have lower and not asymmetric hardpoints so it becomes harder for all 3 of those Victors compared to the DS. The K can easily be mid range support, while B be dakka close/mid range and S be a hardhitter with missiles. And the DS can then fill the longer ranged support role. A quick duration quirk and some help for PPC/Gauss/ACs will ensure it's prosperity.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I think it still is sorta forced into the role of poptart, even it's stock weapons are basically made to poptart. I think DS can be made into a good sniper, but not OP level, by making only PPC + Gauss velocity. Making the targets hit easier while making cooldown slow enough makes it good in a long range trade but not in a close range engagement. This would set it apart from the other Victors.

The sniping is one of the worst things you can force a mech of this size into. Because unless you make it VERY strong it will not get played much. And if its very strong is bad for the game. Just give it nice general quirks. Then it can be an OK sniper and a GOOD mid range mech.

Quote

The asymmetric layout of hardpoints just make this desired to be a sniper, which other Victors can't effectively be anymore.

Other game play besides sniper like asymmetric loadouts. Pretty much all of them.

Quote

The high engine cap is something I think the 9M and PB should actually be able to use, maybe even more speed quirks or something that can make it worthwhile. (BTW Awesome is still terrible, no doubt. No effective use whatsoever on it in at least pugging).

Thing is Victor DS with a very large engine is great in most ways. It just has this HUGE problem of not having enough fire power if it goes fast. Shoot it does not even have enough fire power when it goes slow. But it can have fire power. Just look at the Thunderbolt 9SE. Three LPLs and its good to go with quirks.

The thing I want most if for the Dragon Slayer not to be forced into sniping only. It NEEDS to have nice general quirks and not sniping quirks. I

Quote

The S was made to brawl, so some missile quirks would be good on it (cooldown? heat gen? much much less spread? just fix the damn tubes?).

It works pretty well now. Except there are just better mechs that are tougher. And it has such very short range it makes it very hard to use. So it needs help with range (AC20 and lasers) or needs to be so effective at ultra short range its just scary. Really the AC20 and 2 LPLs work better in general game play since you have at least a little range.

Quote

The B has the extra ballistic, so it should be quirked to utilize that (cooldown and heat gen would be interesting, along with less jam chance).

Well one less missle and one more ballistic that is not that helpful. Normally duel UAC5s are the best bet on these. But just give it nice general ballistics and some nice laser quirks also. Because of the very limited hard points it helps to have combination quirks. Plus it give players more options.

Quote

The K was made to laser combo, so it should have duration quirks on that.

Just give the K and DS the same general quirks. We have to many nitch quirks as it is.

Quote

And the DS was made for asymmetry of how it was back then, giving the perfect poptart mech for one-two years. The engine level is still high on all four Victors, so it's not limiting any Victor in speed, unlike the 300 vs 400 rating engines for Awesomes.

Asymmetry is not just a sniping thing. Its nice for all builds.

Quote

Overall, while Victors do need some help (esp B/K), there are others (Battlemaster, Garg, Highlander, and Awesome) that need even more help. DS being a sniper would make them different since K/B/S all have lower and not asymmetric hardpoints so it becomes harder for all 3 of those Victors compared to the DS. The K can easily be mid range support, while B be dakka close/mid range and S be a hardhitter with missiles. And the DS can then fill the longer ranged support role. A quick duration quirk and some help for PPC/Gauss/ACs will ensure it's prosperity.

I would really really hate to see the DS get second rate sniper quirks so its still never used. Because it WILL get second rate sniper quirks. They will NEVER make the Dragon Slayer an effective sniper again. They are so worried about it they wiped out jump jets, Victors, Highlanders, Cataphract 3Ds, PPC etc. Please please do not try and get them to make it a "sniper". If they force it into that role it will never get quirks that make it worth playing.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 10 April 2015 - 07:48 PM.