359 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

The Clans did not dominate the IS because they were not supposed to. Period.

The fiction was written so as to sell more crap fiction - Stackpole really does suck as a writer.. The Clans were just used as a device to perpetuate content development.

If I had it my way, the Blood Spirits would have formed the core of the mentality of the Clans (with CBS being the ONLY clan not possessed of a Totem animal) and promoted the matra "Neither Crusader nor Warden, We are Clan" and become the ilClan and led the Clans to resurrect the Star League after reclaiming terra (Screw Comstar and do not barter away leverage) and keet any one House from dominating. This would have allowed ALL of the IS inhabitants a fair shot and the Clans a logical conclusion.

by the way, IMHO, Stackpole sold out. .

Let the trolling begin.....

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 04 July 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[BlackAbbot]

Gremlich Johns, on 03 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Let the trolling begin.....

The Clans did not dominate the IS because they were not supposed to. Period.

The fiction was written so as to sell more crap fiction - Stackpole really does suck as a writer.. The Clans were just used as a device to perpetuate content development.

If I had it my way, the Blood Spirits would have formed the core of the mentality of the Clans (with CBS being the ONLY clan not possessed of a Totem animal) and promoted the matra "Neither Crusader nor Warden, We are Clan" and become the ilClan and led the Clans to resurrect the Star League after reclaiming terra (Screw Comstar and do not barter away leverage) and keet any one House from dominating. This would have allowed ALL of the IS inhabitants a fair shot and the Clans a logical conclusion.

by the way, IMHO, Stackpole sold out. KMA if you do not agree, cretins.

Fixed.

[Gremlich Johns]

heh, touche, kinda....

[Will9761]

In The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, I think Phelan Kell said it best:

"As shown on Tukayyid, the only real test of the Clan command system, the will and cooperation of individual leaders is necessary for sucess. Political game-playing destroys opportunities in the field. Had the Clans worked in concert, they could have defeated ComStar and claimed Terra for their own ten years ago.They refused to do so."

As well as being too gullible for the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Will9761, 06 July 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Very good point. Even A.Focht saw this & said the same. Ulric offered his help & the other Clans refused to their detriment.

[Gremlich Johns]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 July 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Very good point. Even A.Focht saw this & said the same. Ulric offered his help & the other Clans refused to their detriment.

Pride is a terrible vice.

[Drakhan]

The members of the inner sphere were fighting for their wives, children, homes, and FREEDOM

That alone would make 1 inner sphere mech warrior worth 10 clanners

also durring the first day of the clan invasion a young pilot by the name of Tyra Miraborg crashed her crippled shilone areofighter into the bridge of the clan's flagship killing all their leaders in one fell swoop causing the clans to stop their invasion for a full year to select new leaders

[MechRaccoon]

Simple. Freebirths got smart. *cough cough* Tukayyid *cough cough*

[Atlai]

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 July 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

from what I can recall, the Clans under bid at Tukayyid. Some clans made mistakes in what they assumed, and it all added up into the loss at Tukayyid. I link this: http://www.sarna.net...le_of_Tukayyid. On a separate note, how do ppl place links like the one I did, but, instead have it say like: Read Here. and have THAT be the link?

You post the link, then type.

[BlackAbbot]

Or you type, then select the text and hit the link button.

[Chuggernaut]

Gremlich Johns, on 03 July 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

The Clans did not dominate the IS because they were not supposed to. Period.

The fiction was written so as to sell more crap fiction - Stackpole really does suck as a writer.. The Clans were just used as a device to perpetuate content development.

If I had it my way, the Blood Spirits would have formed the core of the mentality of the Clans (with CBS being the ONLY clan not possessed of a Totem animal) and promoted the matra "Neither Crusader nor Warden, We are Clan" and become the ilClan and led the Clans to resurrect the Star League after reclaiming terra (Screw Comstar and do not barter away leverage) and keet any one House from dominating. This would have allowed ALL of the IS inhabitants a fair shot and the Clans a logical conclusion.

by the way, IMHO, Stackpole sold out. .

Let the trolling begin.....

Isn't "If I had my way, my faction would be at the center of everything and would lead all plot lines" what would happen if most people had their way?

That scenario, though, would require that we rewrite literally everything about CBS except for the name. The super-isolationist Clan that doesn't even show up to Grand Council meetings in person is going to be leading the invasion and establishing a new Star League?

Edited by Chuggernaut, 06 July 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Oh snap..................

*gets popcorn*

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 06 July 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[JHare]

Star Adder would actually have been the logical choice. They weren't an invading clan because they were outbid. They got outbid because they knew the IS would be a grindhouse. Pre-invasion they had one of the largest armies. They also have a general attitude of co-operation towards other clans. Or so reads the Crusader's Field Manual.

[Baphomech]

From the Sarna.net Battle of Tukayyid article:

"Focht had realized the Clans' weakness; despite the fact that they proclaimed themselves the greatest warriors that ever lived and the ultimate masters of warfare, the Clans were, in fact, very bad at fighting actual wars. Their strategies and tactics were, at best, simple and naive, and when it came to coordination and strategy, IE actual warfare, the Clans were mostly incompetent. In addition to this weakness, the one person among the Clans with the experience, vision, and mindset necessary to lead them to victory, the ilKhan himself, Ulric Kerensky, was being ignored by the leaders of the individual Clans."

Sorry if repost. This is one of my favorite paragraphs on sarna.net though, and I've just been looking for an excuse to use it lol.

[Drenar]

Fortune, on 01 July 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

A combination of short supplies, difference mentality(honor duel against actual war), and the fact that IS used clanners' own sword against them (great refusal war) made the clanners back down.

Actually, the whole invasion was poorly thought out.

I apologize if someone else pointed this out (I don't have the energy to re-read the same thing for six pages ) but I would like to point out that neither the Battle of Tukayyid, nor the Slaughter of the Smoke Jaguars was "The Great Refusal War". The Refusal War actually didn't really involve any Inner Sphere forces. It was purely the Wolves versus the Jade Falcons.

[Jaroth Corbett]

YogSothoth, on 06 July 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

From the Sarna.net Battle of Tukayyid article:

"Focht had realized the Clans' weakness; despite the fact that they proclaimed themselves the greatest warriors that ever lived and the ultimate masters of warfare, the Clans were, in fact, very bad at fighting actual wars. Their strategies and tactics were, at best, simple and naive, and when it came to coordination and strategy, IE actual warfare, the Clans were mostly incompetent. In addition to this weakness, the one person among the Clans with the experience, vision, and mindset necessary to lead them to victory, the ilKhan himself, Ulric Kerensky, was being ignored by the leaders of the individual Clans."

Sorry if repost. This is one of my favorite paragraphs on sarna.net though, and I've just been looking for an excuse to use it lol.

I see your sarna & raise you a novel:

Quote

Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"

The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though I was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."

So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."

Anastasius knew the Wolves strategy had torn his to shreads & he admitted that, had the other Clans listened to Ulric, he would have been Focht.

This is one of my favorite parts of the novel & I love every excuse I get to use it.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 06 July 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[CaveMan]

The Clan invasion was mishandled by the writers, and their "solution" to the problems the Clans caused with the storyline was even worse. It's frankly a little amazing that BattleTech is any good at all, given how terrible the writers have been, historically (I'm looking at you, Stackpole).

Writers made the Clans' arrival entirely too black-and-white, bad guy vs good guy. The Inner Sphere is supposed to be a horrible post-apocalyptic wasteland ruled by rapacious nobles who protect their people only to suck them dry of resources, and the Clans should be a double-edged sword who are both enlightened liberators and murdering crusaders.
Instead we got Victor the Perfect Prince of the English-speaking-and-therefore-good faction, and his retinue of Mary Sues, fighting ineffectual cartoon villains. The Clans deserved a better shake.

If I were in charge, the Clans would have been written a lot differently too (particularly the way Clan honor works, it doesn't make much sense and when carried to its logical conclusion it self-contradicts in destructive ways). Much less about individual pride and more about the honor and success of the clan as a whole.

And the invasion fleet would have entirely bypassed the successor states, jumping through uninhabited systems or empty space (as the Clans should have had Star League-era star charts giving them exact knowledge of all systems in the IS), taken Terra by surprise, kicked out ComStar, and then proceeded to wage a campaign of bloody conquest through the Inner Sphere, resulting in a brutal guerilla war. Meanwhile the Clans that didn't become part of the original Invasion would have attacked the Successor States from outside, forging a corridor for supplies and reinforcements to filter in from the homeworlds.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

CaveMan, on 07 July 2012 - 01:20 AM, said:

The Clan invasion was mishandled by the writers, and their "solution" to the problems the Clans caused with the storyline was even worse. It's frankly a little amazing that BattleTech is any good at all, given how terrible the writers have been, historically (I'm looking at you, Stackpole).

Writers made the Clans' arrival entirely too black-and-white, bad guy vs good guy. The Inner Sphere is supposed to be a horrible post-apocalyptic wasteland ruled by rapacious nobles who protect their people only to suck them dry of resources, and the Clans should be a double-edged sword who are both enlightened liberators and murdering crusaders.
Instead we got Victor the Perfect Prince of the English-speaking-and-therefore-good faction, and his retinue of Mary Sues, fighting ineffectual cartoon villains. The Clans deserved a better shake.

all I wanted was my madmax with mechs
Agreed, the plot for CBT has been shaky for a very long time.

[Gremlich Johns]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 July 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Oh snap..................

*gets popcorn*

I would not agree. CBS was the victim of poor writing. If you read any of the NBT RP that we did, we were well on the way to re-writing everything about CBS, after about 3057..

[Latriam]

"And the invasion fleet would have entirely bypassed the successor states, jumping through uninhabited systems or empty space (as the Clans should have had Star League-era star charts giving them exact knowledge of all systems in the IS), taken Terra by surprise, kicked out ComStar, and then proceeded to wage a campaign of bloody conquest through the Inner Sphere, resulting in a brutal guerilla war. Meanwhile the Clans that didn't become part of the original Invasion would have attacked the Successor States from outside, forging a corridor for supplies and reinforcements to filter in from the homeworlds"
a few problems with this posters history. One the clans lost a lot of non military tech. They knew a lot about a military type planet and very little about the others so thinking they knew "pirate jump points"(thats what unhabitated system jump points are called)Anyways the clans sent "wolf's dragoons" into the inner sphere to spy on them just so they could learn more intel on successor lords and how they fought. The clans knew very little about specicifics of tactical warfare. also honor demanded that the whole inner sphere be retaken and "cleansed" or "absorbed" depending on if you are a crusader or a warden. The clans fell mostly to trickery and partially due to their own infighting between the crusaders and the wardens.

Edited by Latriam, 07 July 2012 - 10:55 AM.