186 replies to this topic

[operatorZ]

One idea is to add a sensor limit to heavier mechs. Basically make the lights be able to see (not really see, but radar see) further than other class's, and then give them points accordingly for "spotting" the enemy. That would make lights invaluable on the battlefield. Currently all mechs have the same "range" on their radar which equals no advantage to bringing a light mech. (if I am screwed up on this, somebody please let me know)

Edited by operatorZ, 14 April 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[Deathlike]

operatorZ, on 14 April 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

One idea is to add a sensor limit to heavier mechs. Basically make the lights be able to see (not really see, but radar see) further than other class's, and then give them points accordingly for "spotting" the enemy. That would make lights invaluable on the battlefield. Currently all mechs have the same "range" on their radar which equals no advantage to bringing a light mech. (if I am screwed up on this, somebody please let me know)

It was suggested before, but nothing came out of it.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not on the table for PGI.

[operatorZ]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

It was suggested before, but nothing came out of it.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not on the table for PGI.

Which leaves us with buffing the lights so on average they can produce as much damage (and hence credits) as a heavy or assault......sigh

[TercieI]

operatorZ, on 14 April 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Which leaves us with buffing the lights so on average they can produce as much damage (and hence credits) as a heavy or assault......sigh

Well, they're nowhere near that right now either, which is why lights are in such a bad place. They're inferior at combat and the game really supports nothing else.

[operatorZ]

Terciel1976, on 14 April 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Well, they're nowhere near that right now either, which is why lights are in such a bad place. They're inferior at combat and the game really supports nothing else.

But I am afraid the changes being recommended (reducing speed of heavier classes) to try and adjust this perceived imbalance will make lights truly OP. IMHO lights are not in a "bad" place at all. I won't go so far as to describe them as "easy mode" but certainly several members of their class are quite formidable.....and unbalanced compared to the other lights

If I had to consider a buff to lights through reduced speed of heavier classes.....the devil is in the details so it would totally depend on which end or middle of the scale a speed decrease in heavies or assaults is made. If its on the 5-8 kph side...meh... ok I could live with it....if its on the 10-12kph...maybe....15-18 kph...no

however nerfing twist speeds on heavies and assaults would doom them to circle jerk..which I think is just stupid anyway

[Deathlike]

operatorZ, on 14 April 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

But I am afraid the changes being recommended (reducing speed of heavier classes) to try and adjust this perceived imbalance will make lights truly OP. IMHO lights are not in a "bad" place at all. I won't go so far as to describe them as "easy mode" but certainly several members of their class are quite formidable.....and unbalanced compared to the other lights

If I had to consider a buff to lights through reduced speed of heavier classes.....the devil is in the details so it would totally depend on which end or middle of the scale a speed decrease in heavies or assaults is made. If its on the 5-8 kph side...meh... ok I could live with it....if its on the 10-12kph...maybe....15-18 kph...no

however nerfing twist speeds on heavies and assaults would doom them to circle jerk..which I think is just stupid anyway

TBH, I kinda need to see this nerf in action before I'd get a better feel for that. I just know that not being able to torso twist fast makes light tracking painfully hard (the Victor nerfs of yesteryear is a bad reminder for me). Many players still don't torso twist/turn/reverse properly or even use the wall to protect their backs. That still suggests that the basics for fighting Lights has not quite been ingrained into people.

[InspectorG]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

That still suggests that the basics for fighting Lights has not quite been ingrained into people.

Why would it if lights are the least viable option?

Currently, MWO is about damage. When it becomes more about objectives, lights may see more viability.

[Gyrok]

Terciel1976, on 14 April 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

Well, they're nowhere near that right now either, which is why lights are in such a bad place. They're inferior at combat and the game really supports nothing else.

They should be rewarded for being better at their role...sadly we have none of that...

[stjobe]

Once upon a long ago, PGI had the (rather good) idea that since we all only get to play one 'mech per match, they needed to make each weight class roughly equal in viability, or else one weight class would sooner or later come to dominate.

They wanted to make it so that assaults beat heavies, who beat mediums, who beat lights, who beat assaults. Everyone had their "natural" prey, and their natural predator. It was the Rock-Paper-Scissors idea.

The way a light should beat an assault wouldn't be by firepower and armour, of course; those are the strengths of the assault, not the light. The light should use its speed and agility to outmaneuver the assault, and by exploiting its advantages it should have a relatively easy time killing off assaults 1-on-1. The assault would be too slow and lumbering to be able to properly defend itself against the quick and nimble light.

Put the light against a medium or heavy though, and it should be another story. Against the medium, the light is outclassed in armour and armament, and its edge in speed and maneuverability isn't enough to secure the win. It should have as rough a time against a medium as the assault has against it. Against the heavy, its chances should be better, but again, not as good as against the assault.

This was the intended weight class balance. Assaults beat heavies beat mediums beat lights beat assaults. Rock-Paper-Scissors. Every weight class equally viable.

Somewhere along the line that got lost. Or got scrapped, I don't know.

In the current MWO, in a 1-on-1 between equally skilled light and assault pilots, the assault pilot will win more often than he loses. The light doesn't have enough of a speed and agility advantage to avoid getting shot for the amount of time it needs to chip away at the massive armour of the assault, whereas the assault only needs a single hit or two to win.

So now weight class balance is skewed. Assaults beat heavies and lights. Heavies beat mediums and lights. Mediums beat lights. Lights... Well, what do lights beat in this state of affairs?

Remember, I'm talking about equally skilled pilots. If they're not equally skilled, the more skilled pilot will of course win more often than he loses, no matter what weight class he pilots.

Edited by stjobe, 14 April 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[Gyrok]

stjobe, on 14 April 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Once upon a long ago, PGI had the (rather good) idea that since we all only get to play one 'mech per match, they needed to make each weight class roughly equal in viability, or else one weight class would sooner or later come to dominate.

They wanted to make it so that assaults beat heavies, who beat mediums, who beat lights, who beat assaults. Everyone had their "natural" prey, and their natural predator. It was the Rock-Paper-Scissors idea.

The way a light should beat an assault wouldn't be by firepower and armour, of course; those are the strengths of the assault, not the light. The light should use its speed and agility to outmaneuver the assault, and by exploiting its advantages it should have a relatively easy time killing off assaults 1-on-1. The assault would be too slow and lumbering to be able to properly defend itself against the quick and nimble light.

Put the light against a medium or heavy though, and it should be another story. Against the medium, the light is outclassed in armour and armament, and its edge in speed and maneuverability isn't enough to secure the win. It should have as rough a time against a medium as the assault has against it. Against the heavy, its chances should be better, but again, not as good as against the assault.

This was the intended weight class balance. Assaults beat heavies beat mediums beat lights beat assaults. Rock-Paper-Scissors. Every weight class equally viable.

Somewhere along the line that got lost. Or got scrapped, I don't know.

In the current MWO, in a 1-on-1 between equally skilled light and assault pilots, the assault pilot will win more often than he loses. The light doesn't have enough of a speed and agility advantage to avoid getting shot for the amount of time it needs to chip away at the massive armour of the assault, whereas the assault only needs a single hit or two to win.

So now weight class balance is skewed. Assaults beat heavies and lights. Heavies beat mediums and lights. Mediums beat lights. Lights... Well, what do lights beat in this state of affairs?

Remember, I'm talking about equally skilled pilots. If they're not equally skilled, the more skilled pilot will of course win more often than he loses, no matter what weight class he pilots.

LOL!!!!

Lights beat assaults assuming equal skills.

Assaults beat everything but lights (unless your light pilot pulls a brain dead moment)

Heavies beat mediums, and, have about 50/50 depending on loadouts/mech choice with lights

Mediums beat lights, and, can, depending on matchup, circumstantially beat heavies...

[MechWarrior5152251]

In table top Assualts>Heavies>Mediums>Lights

MWO is much more skill dependent

For Noobs Assaults>Heavies>Mediums>Lights

Medium skill Heavies>Assaults>Mediums>Lights

For people who are good at FPS, fast lights will beat assaults.

[Jacobei]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

The day the urbie dropped, light queue was 51%.

Last night, light queue was 29%, while the others were slightly less.

Lights are not really OP, but they are not at all UP either, they are just really difficult to master...



The DW has reached the point where making it any slower/less mobile would be crippling.

Buff lights agility most.

Buff mediums agility less.

Leave heavy and assault mechs alone.

And the truth is your not good enough to play (master) the "light" hard mode as you call it. And you want them to leave your easy mode in place... Does that sum up your post?

If your not a light mech pilot why are you trolling this thread. Please read the first line of the OP.

Edited by Jacobei, 14 April 2015 - 10:38 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Terciel1976, on 12 April 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

Perhaps and perhaps vs. other lights, but lights are still in a pretty poor spot, so I think it'd be better to have a few more brought up to FS9 level rather than have more knocked down to JR7 level.

They really aren't for at least 75% of the player base. Probably more. Which imo has a larger effective range in th player base than lurms where they become statisically unviable in a far broader part of the population.

The FS9 is a **** machine in pugs. So are a few other lights. Great cbill maker too.

Of course as soon as one argues from the top 10% of the player base or organised group play, then they don't get a look in compared to heavies etc.

So the problem remains, LRMs are OP for loads of the player base (apparently lol) and there are tons of hard counters. Lights are like in the same spot. If they get buffed then the 10% is still going to be like, 2 heavies> bang> legs rekt or SSRM >gglol light mech, the rest of the playerbase is going to be like QQ lights OP pls nerf.

Edited by Ghogiel, 15 April 2015 - 02:35 AM.

[ShinVector]

MechWarrior5152251, on 14 April 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

For people who are good at FPS, fast lights will beat assaults.

Depends on terrain actually.

[Gyrok]

Jacobei, on 14 April 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

And the truth is your not good enough to play (master) the "light" hard mode as you call it. And you want them to leave your easy mode in place... Does that sum up your post?

If your not a light mech pilot why are you trolling this thread. Please read the first line of the OP.

The truth is, I am honest about my light playing ability because I know what I am capable of doing in them.

Ironically...many of you who claim to be "light hard mode" players are apparently living in some fairy tale land where you think you are great, because you are all complaining about making mistakes that C tier light pilots should have figured out long ago.

I have seen what the best light pilots are truly capable of doing, and if so many of you think you are on that level, you must be kidding yourselves, because you are not.

The harsh truth is, if you were, you would be on the radar for comp units and teams like Lords, BSMC, EmP, and SJR would be recruiting you.I

Since none of those guys are knocking at your door, reality is that your perception of your own skill set is vastly overinflated by your own ego.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

The harsh truth is, if you were, you would be on the radar for comp units and teams like Lords, BSMC, EmP, and SJR would be recruiting you.I

But....no one wants a good Panther pilot.

[Gyrok]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 15 April 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

But....no one wants a good Panther pilot.

BS.

If you can do more with a panther than most can with a FS9 someone would be seeking you out.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

BS.

If you can do more with a panther than most can with a FS9 someone would be seeking you out.

...and tell them to get into a firestarter.

[Bigbacon]

Bush Hopper, on 12 April 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

I love light mechs but often they are iften not fun to play. Reasons for that are:

1. Laser spam
People complain about skillless LRMs...but lasers range on the same level. I mean they hit a light because there is not velocity involved and aim can be adjusted. Sure, they don't hit for the full damage and it gets spread but they hit nevertheless

2. Huge alphas
Now add to no.1 the alpha potential and you know what the problem is

However, I think mediums are even in a worse state. They lack the speed of the lights and the firepower of the heavies. Whereas the heavies easily rival speed and nimbleness of the mediums. Totally out of whack

this.....

also, panther sucks

Edited by Bigbacon, 15 April 2015 - 05:16 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

operatorZ, on 14 April 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Heavies are popular because they have good firepower and mobility....that's their class...that's their job...that's what they do...that's what they have always done. Every class has disadvantegs and advantages its how we as players use those that makes a mech UP or OP. That's it. You want to flip the paradigm of BT/MW on its head, the entire basis for the game of differently advantaged class's of mechs? for the sake of making a que number go up? It just sounds crazy to me.

Basing ideas on balance on the que % is totally disregarding player choice or preference, and so the que % is NOT any indicator of balance. Because you cant separate out player choice. The only reality where your arguments would hold any water is a reality where everybody plays whatever is believed to be the best class regardless of anything else. Well guess what? we don't live in this reality, as proven by the very same que % numbers and basic logic.

And there you are wrong: heavies' role is not to have mobility and firepower. Neither in the BT canon nor in the lore or in the novels. Nowhere (and that for a good reason) - just in MWO. Also arguing that queue lengths are no indicator of what class offers the most...are you new to online games (not meant as an insult but an honest question)? Anyway, I won't argue about that topic anymore. To each his own opinion

Edited by Bush Hopper, 15 April 2015 - 06:01 AM.