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Proposal For Restoring Our Old Jump Jet Functionality


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#21 Astarot

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:03 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 22 April 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:


I would say that you must drink when playing. Whenever I use JJs, I have to be extremely careful not to tear my legs up. They're also no way to "abuse" them; they're useless on Heavies and Assaults and really only good for maneuvering for Mediums and Lights.

Buffing them would actually make them worth taking and would help with Hill Climb and such. It would also help JJ-capable Assaults step out of that stupid trickle of a river on Canyon Network.



I'm sorry, I don't drink while playing the game, reason being is I will kill myself from making up drinking games. Like take a shot everytime you see a light mech abuse their JJ and free fall back to earth. I would be dead long before that light mech would be.

#22 Nightmare1

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:05 PM

View PostAstarot, on 22 April 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I don't drink while playing the game, reason being is I will kill myself from making up drinking games. Like take a shot everytime you see a light mech abuse their JJ and free fall back to earth. I would be dead long before that light mech would be.


Whatever. You stated your views, so please refrain from attempting to derail this thread.

#23 ShinVector

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:19 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 22 April 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:


There really isn't any reason to equip JJs on anything larger than a Medium Mech. For Lights and Mediums, the benefits in battle are negligible; they are really only good for maneuvering around the map. Frankly, I want to see JJs like what are depicted in the books; actionable tech that can be used offensively as well as defensively. Right now all we have are four shades of "bleah."



Can't believe you said that...
People would put JJs on a Locust if they could, as STANDARD.

Edit: Opppss... Sorry Mis-read that my fault.
I still have JJs on all my Hoppers. And they Poptart decently will still with Triple LPLs.

View PostAstarot, on 22 April 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I ask for a first date before any random screwing happens. Moving on, it not the fall damage fault for poor netcoding. Honestly, if jumpjets were restored, a massive downside must be added because people will simply abuse the JJ like they do now, and max out their height and take, to be frank, very little penalty for free falling back to the ground. Infact, not that long ago, I saw a light mech with both legs deep red jump jetting around like crazy, and free falling back to the ground and took very little damage.


Basically Bad + Bad = Worst..

Anyway.. Issue is not with falling... Clean falling is fine.. Getting stuck in MWO is very bad with fall damage.
The slope maybe like 3 meters high but it is not uncommon to see the falling speed meter go >100M/s.
And bam ! Max fall damage...
I am just stating the problem exist and PGI is unlikely to fix it any time soon.

Edited by ShinVector, 22 April 2015 - 05:22 PM.


#24 Nightmare1

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:23 PM

View PostShinVector, on 22 April 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:


Can't believe you said that...
People would put JJs on a Locust if they could, as STANDARD.

Edit: Opppss... Sorry Mis-read that my fault.
I still have JJs on all my Hoppers. And they Poptart decently will still with Triple LPLs.


I'm not a poptarter though. I'm a brawler. I want to be able to spin around using JJs, or leap off heights to drive my feet into my enemy. In short, I want JJs like what we had in MW4, but faster and more agile; something reminiscent of the lore, you know?

#25 ShinVector

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:28 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 22 April 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:


I'm not a poptarter though. I'm a brawler. I want to be able to spin around using JJs, or leap off heights to drive my feet into my enemy. In short, I want JJs like what we had in MW4, but faster and more agile; something reminiscent of the lore, you know?


Just you aren't that doesn't mean.. Others won't
The only solution I see for this as mentioned before is JJs quirks for selected mechs. +50% boost or whatever. It is more controlled that way.

And across the board change would lead to much balancing Chaos.

#26 Astarot

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 05:53 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 22 April 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:


Whatever. You stated your views, so please refrain from attempting to derail this thread.


I'm not derailing the thread, you made a suggestion for JJs, I've made a counter suggestion or a balance tweak, if you can't accept input from the community, then why should we listen to you for one? And for second, that doesn't make it a suggestion, you are making it a demand, which is unacceptable, and the devs should, and most likely will, ignore you.

#27 Nightmare1

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 06:41 PM

View PostAstarot, on 22 April 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

I'm not derailing the thread, you made a suggestion for JJs, I've made a counter suggestion or a balance tweak, if you can't accept input from the community, then why should we listen to you for one? And for second, that doesn't make it a suggestion, you are making it a demand, which is unacceptable, and the devs should, and most likely will, ignore you.


"Suggesting" is one thing. Going on to antagonize is another and can be described as trolling or thread derailing. If you want to increase fall damage, then fine. No need to go tweaking noses and causing trouble on my thread.

#28 Astarot

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 06:46 PM

View PostNightmare1, on 22 April 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:


"Suggesting" is one thing. Going on to antagonize is another and can be described as trolling or thread derailing. If you want to increase fall damage, then fine. No need to go tweaking noses and causing trouble on my thread.



Then shall I quote where you started to antagonize me? Or shall I say this, I provided input each time, which includes suggesting greater fall damage, you brought something that is unrelated to my counter proposal about buggy fall damage, I'm sorry maybe you should of taken it as a hint? That a massive counter to JJ is needed for equiping them, at the moment JJ feel good in my opinion, your 100 ton mech feels like 100 ton mech when you are JJing. This flying through the air like a fairy is a tad counter productive to a game that has always had a simulator like feel.

#29 Nightmare1

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:10 PM

View PostAstarot, on 22 April 2015 - 06:46 PM, said:

Then shall I quote where you started to antagonize me? Or shall I say this, I provided input each time, which includes suggesting greater fall damage, you brought something that is unrelated to my counter proposal about buggy fall damage, I'm sorry maybe you should of taken it as a hint? That a massive counter to JJ is needed for equiping them, at the moment JJ feel good in my opinion, your 100 ton mech feels like 100 ton mech when you are JJing. This flying through the air like a fairy is a tad counter productive to a game that has always had a simulator like feel.


You miss the point of this thread, which is to suggest a temporary test. I'm not asking for a permanent fix here, merely a test to see where JJs stand with regard to some of their old functionality. You also miss the point that many nerfs would be preserved. In short, I'm not advocating for a permanent silver bullet here. I'm simply advocating for a temporary test to gather more information. Trying to turn this into a "JJs OP, please nerf/leave gimped" discussion is outside the bounds of this thread, as indicated in my OP.

#30 Astarot

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:15 PM

And what I'm saying, is that if you are going to suggest this, then you should give a reason for the Devs to consider spending the money to putting it in place on the test server. Suggest new types of downfalls for using said jump jets is one example.

#31 Nightmare1

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:47 PM

View PostAstarot, on 22 April 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

And what I'm saying, is that if you are going to suggest this, then you should give a reason for the Devs to consider spending the money to putting it in place on the test server. Suggest new types of downfalls for using said jump jets is one example.


I'm not asking for a Public Test Server; I'm asking for a single weekend, full population public test, just like what PGI did with the AC/2s and IS LLs. Those were not Public Test Server exercises; they were main game changes to test the new parameters within the game's full population and to acquire feedback from the community at large rather than from a handful of people who bothered to install the Public Test Server Client. That's what I am suggesting and asking for discussion here. To remind you about how that went, see the IS LL thread here: http://mwomercs.com/...s-large-lasers/

Now, you say there should be new downfalls for this test. I say there needn't. The only thing changing here would be JJ thrust and agility. The heat penalties, screen shake, and fall damage would all remain the same. That's enough for an initial test. If it appears that JJs are too strong, then the thrust and agility can be reduced. If thrust and agility was a variable A, and heat, screen shake, and fall damage were variables X, Y, and Z respectively, then we only want to change the value of A. Hold the other variables constant, and you can iteratively tune variable A until you find a good value. If you can't easily find a good value that satisfies most of the population, then freeze A and choose another variable to begin altering. That's the thing about testing; you only change one thing at a time so that you can fully observe all of the ramifications of that one change.

Finally, consider this also. With the massive nerfs that have been applied to ballistics and PPCs, and the tonnage requirements for JJs, there really isn't any way that poptarting will become a restored meta. However, it will help counterbalance the current meta of laser vomit. In short, laser vomit will likely remain the full meta (especially in CW), but JJs will become a better improved tool for those of us who don't want to run the meta, improving our gameplay experience overall.

#32 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 12:52 AM

The way Jump Jets work and their associated animations need a bit of tweak too.

What I might consider for Jump Jets is, when used, have a burn duration that matches the intended animations, then a cooldown for the animation to fully cycle to prevent the bunny hop abuse and help with any potential lag situations, poptarting stuff is only one aspect that was/is annoying about JJs.

After that increasing burn duration, velocity and angle of mech movement can be boosted with any necessary adjustments to animations. And values should at be consistent where one Jump Jet provides very little, were each additional Jump Jet provides an additive boost.






This way Jump Jets can transform into more useful tonnage and not exploit any engine limitations as Jump Jets get closer to at least BT benchmarks, not sure how they have been described in the books.

For example, I'd love to see Jump Jets be able to provide more horizontal distance per Jet, where one Jet should ideally reach a distance of 15 horizontal meters at max height then be able to move safely down 15 meters matching the BT hex distance (max heights maybe could be ~6 meters (as the BT levels) for vertical movement or whatever works best for MWO) and each Jet should be able to then provide a consistent level or performance.






And as such maybe a new mechanism needs to be explored.

So for example, tap once and you get either distance or height (ideally based on terrain and/or mech movement) of one Jet. So dunno how collision detection and so on work, but assuming horizontal and vertical features can be detected: when jumping on a horizontal face, the mech gains distance, if a vertical face is detected, the mech gains height. Otherwise, I'd explore having forward movement gaining vertical height, and being stationary gains horizontal jump distance.



If the mech has say three Jump Jets, (your HUD will show the JJ bar divided by three with one unit used), you can then gain additional movement by holding or tapping the key up to your max, and ideally not receive fall damage if the Jumps are controlled and not dropping down too far in normal use.

And once you land, the bars regenerate one at a time, and have their associated cooldown period before being able to use them again, so that bunny hops are impossible and provide the opportunity for smooth jumping animation and viable speed and distances.

Depending on what can be designed and programed, this could also make jumps more predictable to use where, say you are in the thick of action and need to escape, your mech has 6 Jump Jets and you have used five units to quickly scale some crystals on Tourmaline, to reach an area that is lower and will give you fall damage if free falling. But since you saved one unit, with proper timing, you can fire off the last Jet to avoid the fall damage.

Hope I'm making sense with what I'm trying to describe!

#33 Telmasa

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 12:53 AM

I think jumpjets balance-wise are fine as they are. Assaults and heavies could be scaled very slightly so that jumpjets are more effective than they are now, but that's the only tweak I'd pick. Lights & mediums on both IS/clan sides are perfectly fine with JJ.

edit: Though I'll get behind any tweaks to prevent bunnyhopping.

Edited by Telmasa, 23 April 2015 - 12:54 AM.


#34 Vegalas

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 06:06 AM

View PostTarogato, on 22 April 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

I completely agree with the OP and I think it would be a great idea to implement the proposal on the test server and see how the metas fair against one another.



The OP isn't asking for JJs to be reverted back to their former glorly - he's simply asking for them to be buffed with the current downsides in place. If JJs had most of their old thrust back, but retained the heat nerfs, the screenshake nerfs, the projectile velocity nerfs, ... the list goes on... I think things would be mostly fine. You'd only have to tune the global JJ thrust up to the point where it's better but not to the point where it's "jumpsniping only OP meta tactic"


The problem with this is... if there is a best option in the skill tree, everybody will take it instead of the alternative and it all amounts to nothing but a mindless buff to the skill (jumpjets) in question.


I guess I should have been more clear in my post but I wasn't referring to any "small revamp". I have been previously on the side having an entire pilot tree added to the game while also changing the current a bit for balancing and other gameplay reasons. I managed to write a post and vote on this thread about my opinions if anyone's interested. I indeed think that the skill tree system needs a major overhaul for it to be more useful for PGI and the players. I don't think that having a separate skill tree from mechs is bad idea either and my idea was to make the pilot tree stuff weight-class specific.

http://mwomercs.com/...89#entry4355189

To be more on the topic though I must point out that having two separate JJ functions is a good idea in my opinion. However I am not sure what form they should take in the mechlab. Should the be separately mounted jumpjets with the ability to hover? An upgrade which gives the JJ's the ability to do both? Anyways the options are numerous and the possible addition of side strafing JJ's only add more. There are some good posts here. Good to see that somebody else is doing some writing too.

Edited by Vegalas, 25 April 2015 - 06:07 AM.


#35 Kalimaster

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 07:00 AM

I am all in favor of fixing Jump Jets.

Method 1. Restore the Jump Jets to original specs.

Method 2. Add an unlock for Jump Jets to the Master Slot

Method 3. Variable parts to slip into a Jump Jets that would allow for maneuvering while airborne.

#36 Vegalas

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 12:58 PM

This has been an interesting discussion but I must disagree with Method's one and two. Restoring JJ's to the original state that they had previously int he beta is a bit too drastic. Back then the amount of jump jets made less of an impact and the difference between a heavier mech using JJ's wasn't that big. Now they make more sense physicswise while not being completely useless. An unlock in the master tree is a bit too hard to get and it wouldn''t be up to par with other upgrades all of which aren't in the master tree. I am all up for a hovering mechanic in one way or another. Perhaps a "hovering jet" bar should come up when the mech has achieved the maximum height limit indicating how long the mech can stay in the steadily air. I'm not sure if an upgrade or anything else is needed for that one. The duration of it shouldn't be too long either.

Edited by Vegalas, 29 April 2015 - 01:03 AM.


#37 Nightmare1

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Posted 02 May 2015 - 07:59 AM

This is primarily about restoring the functionality of JJs by restoring their thrust. Nerfs such as heat, screen shake, and fall damage would be maintained.

#38 Nightmare1

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 03:08 PM

PGI, I know you guys periodically check these forums. Is there any chance that we could get a statement about JJs? Something more concrete than, "It needs fixing but we don't really want to touch it right now?" Really, anything would be pretty exciting at this point since it currently feels as though JJs have just been abandoned.

#39 Hotthedd

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 05:56 AM

I would be okay with a slight buff to JJs if using them produced forward thrust as well as vertical thrust. This would make pop-tarting very hard, as the jump sniper could very well land on top of the ridge he was hiding behind, but for every other play style, JJs would give a noticeable agility boost.

#40 Nightmare1

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 08:39 AM

I could go for that too. Frankly, I just want the old thrust back so that I can have fun with them again. Ironically, I got my JJ Mechs late, right before JJs got nerfed, so I never really got to use them much. I recall bounding around the map and loving it, but it only lasted for such a short time. I want that sensation of leaping and dodging and such again. It felt like MechWarrior. What we have now...does not feel like MechWarrior...





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