99 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

yea, because one side having two weapon systems that can do 15 or more pin-point is sooooo one sided....

I'm glad that you agree C-ER PPCs doing 15 damage to 1 location with ER PPCs being left in the dust (more so than they are now) would be one sided.

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I will freely admit, when I bought my Clan mechs, I was expecting something close to TT.... Ahh well, much happier on the IS side, the freedom in customization is just silly on the IS side...

I don't understand why you would think that because PGI bent over backwards to make it clear that clans would not be blatantly overpowered like they are in canon.

[MrZakalwe]

Pjwned, on 13 April 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm glad that you agree C-ER PPCs doing 15 damage to 1 location with ER PPCs being left in the dust (more so than they are now) would be one sided.



I don't understand why you would think that because PGI bent over backwards to make it clear that clans would not be blatantly overpowered like they are in canon.

Would have been crap if they had been.

[Metus regem]

Pjwned, on 13 April 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

I'm glad that you agree C-ER PPCs doing 15 damage to 1 location with ER PPCs being left in the dust (more so than they are now) would be one sided.



I don't understand why you would think that because PGI bent over backwards to make it clear that clans would not be blatantly overpowered like they are in canon.

I came in to this, not knowing anything about PGI, or what they were going to do. I came into this from a 90% TT background. So the faster firing, ghost heat, perfect convergence and strange heat cap system was totally alien to me, and I have no clue that was happening. I honestly bought my clan mechs after 40 drops, not enough to know anything.

As for the first thing that you quoted from me, I guess I should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in... And yes, I know that the AC 20 is short ranged, but it still 15 or more pin-point, giving the IS two weapon systems that can deal 15 or more to lone location, something that the clans lack....

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

I came in to this, not knowing anything about PGI, or what they were going to do. I came into this from a 90% TT background. So the faster firing, ghost heat, perfect convergence and strange heat cap system was totally alien to me, and I have no clue that was happening. I honestly bought my clan mechs after 40 drops, not enough to know anything.

As for the first thing that you quoted from me, I guess I should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in... And yes, I know that the AC 20 is short ranged, but it still 15 or more pin-point, giving the IS two weapon systems that can deal 15 or more to lone location, something that the clans lack....

Clans also have two weapons that do 15 pinpoint damage.

1. Gauss
2. Another Gauss

[Khobai]

Quote

Clan tech will be equal, but different to IS tech when they are done.

except clan erppc is still way better than IS erppc?

the only thing that makes them equal is thunderbolt quirks

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 April 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Clans also have two weapons that do 15 pinpoint damage.

1. Gauss
2. Another Gauss

True...

IS has:

1. Gauss
2. Another Gauss
3. AC-20
4. Another AC-20


Guess I just don't understand why it's okay for the IS to have two weapon systems that can do it, and the Clans can't...

[FupDup]

A 6-ton Gauss Rifle would be obnoxious, basically. Really, really obnoxious.

[Pjwned]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

I came in to this, not knowing anything about PGI, or what they were going to do. I came into this from a 90% TT background. So the faster firing, ghost heat, perfect convergence and strange heat cap system was totally alien to me, and I have no clue that was happening. I honestly bought my clan mechs after 40 drops, not enough to know anything.

Seems a little silly to buy something as expensive as a clan package without knowing anything about it, but oh well I guess.

Quote

As for the first thing that you quoted from me, I guess I should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in... And yes, I know that the AC 20 is short ranged, but it still 15 or more pin-point, giving the IS two weapon systems that can deal 15 or more to lone location, something that the clans lack....

I was aware of the sarcasm, perhaps you weren't aware of mine.

[Metus regem]

Pjwned, on 13 April 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Seems a little silly to buy something as expensive as a clan package without knowing anything about it, but oh well I guess.



I was aware of the sarcasm, perhaps you weren't aware of mine.

Totally missed yours. Still gald we can joke about it.

-shrug- When I did it, I only bought the Timber Wolf Al la cart, so nothing really wasted... later I bought the rest after I decided that I like MWO enough to actually put money into it.

[Mawai]

All I can do is LOL at this thread ... this subject has been discussed so many times but perhaps the OP is new and hasn't seen it.

1) MWO is not TT. MWO is a real time first person shooter. It does not have 10 seconds rounds. Weapons, armor, damage have all been mapped to real time. For whatever reason, MWO designers chose to keep roughly the damage numbers listed in TT but change the DPS since most weapons fire multiple times in a 10 second window. This resulted in the balance between all of the weapons being quite different in MWO than TT.

2) In TT the clans are OP. It is obvious. You never balanced equal tonnage IS vs. Clan because the IS would lose. Period. In lore the clan mechs are balanced against more and larger IS mechs. However, that doesn't work in a real time first person shooter game where folks have to queue for games. If the game is set up so that mechs are imbalanced then you MUST always have clans vs. IS. That there will always be more and heavier IS mechs on one side than clans on the other ... fine. However, what happens when 60% of the players or 80% of the players want to play clans and the rest IS? Do you have ANY idea how freaking long they would have to wait for a match? The answer is that the queue times will get into HOURS very quickly. This is why strict 3/3/3/3 weight class matching also failed the first couple of times they tried it ... queue starvation. Popular weight classes could take a hour to get a match if they got one at all.

As a result we now have an adaptive matchmaker that goes away from 3/3/3/3 when needed to keep the queue times reasonable. ANY scenario that requires clan and IS to be on opposite teams to balance WOULD NOT work due to queue times.

PGI realized this and decided that it was necessary in order to make a viable, playable game that Clan and IS mechs be approximately equal. This required clan weapon design that gives something along the lines of "different but equally effective" despite the fact that clan weapons take less space, weight less, do more damage.

So PGI made adjustments for clan weapons. Clan ACs fire several rounds to achieve their damage total. Clan laser burn time is increased. Weapon cooldowns can be longer. Clan ERPPCs do 15 damage - 10 central + 2.5 spash to two adjacent sections.

Clan weapons generally do more damage but have drawbacks to compensate so that they are roughly as effective as IS weapons. Is this true? No. Clan weapons are still generally more effective than IS in the hands of a good pilot ... though not by that much.


So ... to answer the OP ... there are tons of changes from TT. Do I necessarily agree with the design balance that PGI has chosen? No ... but I do agree that changes had to be made to make this a viable online multiplayer first person shooter game ... and that includes general nerfs to clans to make them more or less equivalent to IS. (though Timberwolf, Stormcrow, Direwolf and to some extent Hellbringer are pretty much better than any IS counterparts).

[Mawai]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

True...

IS has:

1. Gauss
2. Another Gauss
3. AC-20
4. Another AC-20


Guess I just don't understand why it's okay for the IS to have two weapon systems that can do it, and the Clans can't...

... because

... clan mechs are generally faster due to XL engines used across the board.

... clan mechs do not die to a side torso loss the way IS mechs do ... thus PPFLD is not quite as effective against clans as it is against the IS.

... since clan weapons are usually lighter and use fewer crit slots ... clan mechs tend to be able to carry either more armor or more weapons than IS mechs in a comparable weight class.


Having more clan PPFLD weapons would simply make the clan mechs significantly more effective than IS.

... and that is the problem. Due to game constraints and queue starvation issues, PGI has to support a PUG game more where IS and clan mechs drop together in mixed matches. Where folks can choose what they want to drop in and just drop into a match. In order to do this, clan and IS mechs need to be roughly comparable ... which is the reason behind all the of the clan design decisions and IS mech quirks.

[Abisha]

never go PPC when you can Wub.

[Mister Raven]

If they didn't want clans to be so overpowered they should have chosed a later time line where innersphere have rotary autocannons heavy guass and x pulse lasers.

right?

[FupDup]

Mister Raven, on 13 April 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

If they didn't want clans to be so overpowered they should have chosed a later time line where innersphere have rotary autocannons heavy guass and x pulse lasers.

right?

The vast majority of invasion-era Clantech was better than the most advanced future-timeline IS tech in BT. Maybe the RAC/5 might be an exception, but that's really about it. The IS never fully caught up.

[Poisoner]

Mister Raven, on 13 April 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon


clan PPC damage is 15, innersphere 10, both 15 heat.

the in game clan er ppc damage is listed as 10 not 15.

whats the deal?

Says the guy who runs straight towards the enemy on Caustic Valley and suicides his direwolf without even saying a single word to the rest of team.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Mcgral18, on 13 April 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

The cERPPC is straight up better than the isERPPC.

Both simply aren't very good anymore.

Unless your in a quad cerppc quirked warhawk, then it rocks.

[Mister Raven]

public matches to me are like toilet paper.

im not sure how that works but im not gonna think about it too much.

also pubbers never listen.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mister Raven, on 13 April 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

If they didn't want clans to be so overpowered they should have chosed a later time line where innersphere have rotary autocannons heavy guass and x pulse lasers.

right?

Not only does ClanTech beat IS tech throughout the entire timeline, but that would eliminate the ability to have an invasion to Terra as per the timeline (we would have to be in much, much later era to get them even close).

Also, the idea thatbClans should be better and the IS should field more Mechs is extremely detrimental to this game's viability on the market. Who wants to play a lousy Mech when you can play a good Mech? If this were a game that pitted Soldier vs. Soldier, would you rather play as a Musketeer on a team of 100, or would you rather play as a modern U.S. Infantryman on a team of 30 against those musketeers? Everybody and their brother would rather play with automatic carbines and bolt-action rifles over muskets - you have more targets, more firing opportunities, and you get to kill more enemies.

It would be lame to play as the IS if they get more Mechs that suck, and the Clans get fewer Mechs that are simply better in every way. Nobody would want to queue for IS, and compound that by the need for more IS players compared to Clan players to get a match... The game would fail.

People who want OP Clan Tech want MWO to fail.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 13 April 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

True...

IS has:

1. Gauss
2. Another Gauss
3. AC-20
4. Another AC-20


Guess I just don't understand why it's okay for the IS to have two weapon systems that can do it, and the Clans can't...

Not like it really matters how many different guns do 15+ pinpoint damage, but can you mount a gauss and 2 AC 20s on an IS mech? Or an AC 20 and two gauss? Or even if you could, would it be an effective build?

The difference is, a c ER PPC is 6 tons, two can be mounted easily in combination with a Gauss for a 45 pt alpha from a 90 kph tanky 75 tonner with jump jets. If you don't think that is OP then you will never understand.

I wish we had 15 damage PPCs. I would have SO much fun with that, but its not gonna happen. I do want them to be faster though.

FupDup, on 13 April 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

A 6-ton Gauss Rifle would be obnoxious, basically. Really, really obnoxious.

With unlimited ammo and lots of DHS

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 April 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 April 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

The difference is, a c ER PPC is 6 tons, two can be mounted easily in combination with a Gauss for a 45 pt alpha from a 90 kph tanky 75 tonner with jump jets. If you don't think that is OP then you will never understand.

The dual erppc gauss Timber does not have jump jets, unless your running only 1.5 - 2 tons of ammo. Have you even played the Timber?

Also that build blows on a Timber, no targeting computer or velocity increase quirks. Your better off with 2 LPL Gauss, or er meds gauss.

Edited by Alwrath, 13 April 2015 - 01:17 PM.