99 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 April 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

I'm not interested in peak DPS at 800 meters, I'm interested in not hanging out in the open to take return fire. So you can shoot more often all you want, but your rate of fire is dependent upon my presence to mean anything. You fire at me as often as I want you to, or you are wasting shots. And when you do fire, my PPC round goes off and I'm just wrapping your laser burn around my 'Mech, if I'm even still poking out at all.

Really, it's just my preference. I've yet to really feel outgunned when using ERPPCs in CW (on my BLR-3M, they've got 972 meter range), but I have been outgunned with 4x ERLL on my K2. So I've recently switched it to the old-school PPC+AC/5 so I can just scoot along and pop shots off. It works well for me.

As for the C-ERPPC, I'd be fine with it being bumped to 15 pin-point damage if the IS ERPPC gets dropped to, at most, 10 heat in return. Both need velocity improvements, though I'm not thrilled with the idea of PPCs being nothing more than energy-typed auto-cannons.

Your PPC shot that people can clearly adjust for and outright dodge at 600-650m?

That the PPC you are talking about?

[Y E O N N E]

You can't dodge it if you are trying to hold a laser burn. You also aren't dodging it if you are in a Stalker or a Warhawk, nor are you dodging it if you are in a committed push. You won't be dodging it if you aren't expecting it, either.

I'm not an amazing shot with projectile weapons in this game. If ERPPCs were so easy to dodge, then why aren't people dodging my shots?

[Ragtag soldier]

odds are because they're preoccupied with your teammates. autocannons and especially particle cannons have oddly slow projectiles, and anything with a decent speed profile can get out of their way at midrange or better if they don't have something else they're looking at.

[Y E O N N E]

Ragtag soldier, on 13 April 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

odds are because they're preoccupied with your teammates. autocannons and especially particle cannons have oddly slow projectiles, and anything with a decent speed profile can get out of their way at midrange or better if they don't have something else they're looking at.

Bingo!

And they should always be preoccupied with your teammates, or preoccupied with you so your teammates' PPC rounds can smack the enemy anyway. Or, in general, just preoccupied with doing anything other than trying to dodge PPC blasts. It is rare to find an enemy not preoccupied with something already unless you are at the front of the line or are otherwise first contact. As a PPC user, you should not be at the front of the line.

[Lyoto Machida]

Poisoner, on 13 April 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Says the guy who runs straight towards the enemy on Caustic Valley and suicides his direwolf without even saying a single word to the rest of team.

[Lightfoot]

Mister Raven, on 13 April 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon


clan PPC damage is 15, innersphere 10, both 15 heat.

the in game clan er ppc damage is listed as 10 not 15.

whats the deal?

Should be 12 heat for the damage nerf. That's fair compensation for the loss of 5 damage direct into damage spread. Clan Tech is just Lasers and Missiles in MWO unless your mech is an Assault. ACs are junk for their inaccuracy. Time to make Clan tech work instead of nerfing everything but Lasers into garbage level weapons.

[Tombstoner]

Mawai, on 13 April 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

Actually, I think the clan invasion was explicitly chosen from the beginning from a marketing and fan perspective. There are Battletech fans, there are IS fans and there are clan fans. IS and clan partisans can be quite loyal both in terms of interest and in terms of spending money. There are both clan and IS iconic mechs in the 3050 to 3060 clan invasion time frame.

So ... ultimately, that window makes the best choice from the point of view of greatest revenue and appealing to the most fans of the franchise. I can't blame them for it at all and think it was a good financial plan.

I agree with you. but from a development point of view. less tech lets you work out game balance. PGI could easily code every weapon in the game. what we got was realignment every time a new mech was added. it lacked continuity. Closed beta never really saw much change in systems on value tweaks and lrm arch behavior. The addition of ECM clearly showed holes in the games design.

Faction warfare would have worked perfectly well with the basic set of mechs. In fact PGi could have make up dosens of mechs with out touching the classic clans untill things where ready for prime time. but short sighted people on the publishers side wanted more mechs. in order to cash out.

Systems like 10 damage with 2.5 to each side or ghost heat are BS in my book. all this was talked about in depth in closed beta. they had to happen because the game hit new tech way before PGI was ready. Battle tech in not a FPS drop in, but PGI has treated it as such.

[Bishop Steiner]

EfuRa, on 13 April 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Sadly this is the way things are going I'm really thinking they should have done succession wars so no clans, post invasion or jihad so IS could use clan tech rather than a balancing act.

as a player I would have loved that. Problem is they know that too many people play or know the game solely for clan tech, like the Mad Cat, and thus, without it, would have had a significant loss of revenue.

But since it's a PvP FPS, balance is mandatory, lore notwithstanding.

Metus regem, on 13 April 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

ER or Normal?

On a PPC mech, or not on a PPC mech?

'cause on my AWS-8Q, I love having 7.5 heat normal PPC's even with the 90m dead zone....

apples to apples. Just because IS has standard PPC doesn't change the fact that the weapon itself, the ER PPC compared to the IS ER PPC, is superior.

And yes, I'm talking about the WEAPON, not some quirked version on certain chassis, before you decide to go there.

BTW...why are we feeding the obvious troll?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 14 April 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[QuantumButler]

PGI arbitrarily decided to make CERPPCs pretty much useless compared to any clan laser for reasons.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 April 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

You can't dodge it if you are trying to hold a laser burn. You also aren't dodging it if you are in a Stalker or a Warhawk, nor are you dodging it if you are in a committed push. You won't be dodging it if you aren't expecting it, either.

I'm not an amazing shot with projectile weapons in this game. If ERPPCs were so easy to dodge, then why aren't people dodging my shots?

If I am sitting there trading with you, I am watching you, if a white blob comes at me with mooninite quad laser speed, you bet I can hold a beam on you and sidestep it.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 April 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

Bingo!

And they should always be preoccupied with your teammates, or preoccupied with you so your teammates' PPC rounds can smack the enemy anyway. Or, in general, just preoccupied with doing anything other than trying to dodge PPC blasts. It is rare to find an enemy not preoccupied with something already unless you are at the front of the line or are otherwise first contact. As a PPC user, you should not be at the front of the line.

Only terrible pilots with poor situational awareness cannot keep track of what units are where on the battlefield.

I am not preoccupied with anything when I am trading with another mech, and I am not standing in the open when I am not shooting.

Been living that PUGlife for too long?

[Mawai]

Tombstoner, on 14 April 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

I agree with you. but from a development point of view. less tech lets you work out game balance. PGI could easily code every weapon in the game. what we got was realignment every time a new mech was added. it lacked continuity. Closed beta never really saw much change in systems on value tweaks and lrm arch behavior. The addition of ECM clearly showed holes in the games design.

Faction warfare would have worked perfectly well with the basic set of mechs. In fact PGi could have make up dosens of mechs with out touching the classic clans untill things where ready for prime time. but short sighted people on the publishers side wanted more mechs. in order to cash out.

Systems like 10 damage with 2.5 to each side or ghost heat are BS in my book. all this was talked about in depth in closed beta. they had to happen because the game hit new tech way before PGI was ready. Battle tech in not a FPS drop in, but PGI has treated it as such.

Absolutely. It might well have been a better game without clans at all. It would have been easier to balance and the entire battletech time line is essentially one war or another (since the point of the game was to run around killing other combat machines ... would be difficult without conflict ) ... so they had a wide choice of eras that could have been used.

However, from a monetary and marketing perspective, I think the game may be more successful for having both IS and clan forces involved. Unfortunately, when PGI made the original time line decision ... I suspect that they had done no design work whatsoever on clans. They had no plans and no clue about how clans would be incorporated into the game in some sort of workable fashion ... all they had was the time line and the coolness concept of a clans vs IS conflict that they could use to hype marketing.

When the reality of the challenges of clan and IS in an online multiplayer game with the real life constraints of player queues, game balance, and other effects ... you end up with the generally lackluster design decisions they came up with.

Even balancing IS weapons was challenging enough ...
- ghost heat to deter boating of energy weapons
- ECM to mitigate the effectiveness of massed LRMs

They should have balanced the weapon systems ... instead they tacked on band aid solutions that caused their own problems.

ECM was so overpowered that it then required TAG, NARC, BAP and PPC hits as direct counters. ECM is still a game changer ... the only reason it isn't even more so is that it is common enough that folks mostly don't rely on exclusively LRMs as their primary weapon system anymore.

Sigh ... sorry for the digression ... some of the design decisions PGI has made over the years still irritate like a thorn. MWO is still a good game ... but a bit of thinking and better design and it could have been great.

Edited by Mawai, 14 April 2015 - 05:45 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Not even LRMs, most PUGs are completely blind without those handy red doritos to shoot at, so ECM in solo games basically is equal to a cloak of invisibility.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

apples to apples. Just because IS has standard PPC doesn't change the fact that the weapon itself, the ER PPC compared to the IS ER PPC, is superior.

And yes, I'm talking about the WEAPON, not some quirked version on certain chassis, before you decide to go there.

BTW...why are we feeding the obvious troll?

Slow day at work I guess?

As for quirks on mechs, I think it is important that we factor those in, as you are more likely to see them on mechs with quirks for them, then on ones that don't.

I like the PPC family, but I'm not going to toss them onto a Centurion or Dragon? No, not likely, they are just inefficient weapons... but will I put them onto a Vindy? You bet your ass I will, same for the Awesomes.... Maybe a Thunderbolt, if I ever get one...

But when looking at them in a vacuum, yes the IS ERPPC is just bad when looking at the Clan version, but for the IS version, the reason for that increased heat, is for the lack of minimum range, extra range and extra speed.

[CptGier]

Lordred, on 13 April 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Welcome to PGIs vision of Battletech.

Clan tech will be equal, but different to IS tech when they are done.

Yet ultimately worse in the scheme of the game meta, which dictates dealing as much dmg in as short a period of time and losing the heat as quiclky as possible. IS lasers burn faster, which deals the dmg faster, they generate less heat, whcih loses the heat faster, they quirked the ranges, so IS get range, the IS get clumpy missiles, they get PPD ACs.....and clans are the ones that are so OP? Not to say IS are OP, but Clans sure as **** arent.

[Abisha]

QuantumButler, on 14 April 2015 - 06:10 AM, said:

Not even LRMs, most PUGs are completely blind without those handy red doritos to shoot at, so ECM in solo games basically is equal to a cloak of invisibility.

true story.
so many times i walk into a ambush for not having map Intel.
i will never understand how ECM can counter Satellite images.
ECM on it's own is already powerful to counter and disable a whole weapon system

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Abisha, on 14 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

i will never understand how ECM can counter Satellite images.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 14 April 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Slow day at work I guess?

As for quirks on mechs, I think it is important that we factor those in, as you are more likely to see them on mechs with quirks for them, then on ones that don't.

I like the PPC family, but I'm not going to toss them onto a Centurion or Dragon? No, not likely, they are just inefficient weapons... but will I put them onto a Vindy? You bet your ass I will, same for the Awesomes.... Maybe a Thunderbolt, if I ever get one...

But when looking at them in a vacuum, yes the IS ERPPC is just bad when looking at the Clan version, but for the IS version, the reason for that increased heat, is for the lack of minimum range, extra range and extra speed.

And that is why when comparing the weapons, you really can't factor quirks in, as those are chassis based. Not all mechs are quirked equally, and Clan Quirks are in their infancy and incomplete. As your own post notes, you just don't see a reason to use the PPC on those mechs... but if the PPC or ERPPC is used there, they AREN'T getting any boosts, usually.

So what you are saying, really is that on like...3-4 chassis, the IS ERPPC has advantages over the Clan (again, one cannot really compare the non ER,), which is true, though at the same time, the Clan ER still has advantages in weight and crits, and thus can be placed in a CT mount for instance, and comes with the tonnage to give itself a free DHS (which because the clans are 2 crits vs 3, it almost certainly will have room to use, compared to a similar IS build).

So even "outside the vacuum", it's not a clear cut advantage/disadvantage.... and that ignores the number of chassis that the C ERPPC is pure upgrade compared to.

Abisha, on 14 April 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

true story.
so many times i walk into a ambush for not having map Intel.
i will never understand how ECM can counter Satellite images.
ECM on it's own is already powerful to counter and disable a whole weapon system

at what point do you think you are getting continuous real time satellite images? If that were the case, ecm or no, you would see the whole enemy team any time they were not under cover. You don't because you don't have real time satellite imagery in MWO. At best, you got Google Maps, lol.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 14 April 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

And that is why when comparing the weapons, you really can't factor quirks in, as those are chassis based. Not all mechs are quirked equally, and Clan Quirks are in their infancy and incomplete. As your own post notes, you just don't see a reason to use the PPC on those mechs... but if the PPC or ERPPC is used there, they AREN'T getting any boosts, usually.

So what you are saying, really is that on like...3-4 chassis, the IS ERPPC has advantages over the Clan (again, one cannot really compare the non ER,), which is true, though at the same time, the Clan ER still has advantages in weight and crits, and thus can be placed in a CT mount for instance, and comes with the tonnage to give itself a free DHS (which because the clans are 2 crits vs 3, it almost certainly will have room to use, compared to a similar IS build).

So even "outside the vacuum", it's not a clear cut advantage/disadvantage.... and that ignores the number of chassis that the C ERPPC is pure upgrade compared to.

That's why for the most part, I consider the IS ERPPC and cERPPC more or less a wash in difference. One is smaller and weighs less, but runs hotter on any mech that runs it, even when quirked for it.

With the clan quriks, I'm looking forward to see where they go with this, and honestly, I would like to feel the drive to play my Clan mechs again, but I just don't find them as fun. If the cERPPC was really worth equiping aside from a love of those weapons, then for me at least, it would go a long way to getting me back in the cockpit of them, when not feeling like trolling with 8 cERPPC Dire Wolf...

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 14 April 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

That's why for the most part, I consider the IS ERPPC and cERPPC more or less a wash in difference. One is smaller and weighs less, but runs hotter on any mech that runs it, even when quirked for it.

With the clan quriks, I'm looking forward to see where they go with this, and honestly, I would like to feel the drive to play my Clan mechs again, but I just don't find them as fun. If the cERPPC was really worth equiping aside from a love of those weapons, then for me at least, it would go a long way to getting me back in the cockpit of them, when not feeling like trolling with 8 cERPPC Dire Wolf...

learn to play hardmode like me....stock SMN-P baby! Carry Harder!