159 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

I pug. I think its rare for me to encounter 12 mans, though once in a while I do. The disadvantage of having a 12 man is that those good players are not distributed to reinforce three to four other pugs, so the win rate is only a sure 1x compared to possible, and a gamble, 3x to 4x.

Even if you join a unit, there are good chances that the unit won't have enough online players at once, so the premades are only small --- two, three, four, five or six players. These small premades often mix with other small premades and lone wolves.

Lone wolves have quality from one end to the other in extreme. There are players that are just a liability to the team, and there are players that are just wrecking balls and one man armies. When reinforced with small premades, it can feel like an organized 12 man rolling all over you.

There are good players in squads that understand the need to reinforce pugs and go lone wolving themselves when their squads are not sufficient.

Should note that not every member in a unit are good too. Its organizing the average talent by communication, discipline and teamwork that turns them into a formidable fighting force. Without their squads, I see them geting stomped like any regular player in a CW pug or the public pug queue.

I will admit though, that the maps are not solo friendly, they tend to channel solo players into gauntlets of firing lines comprised of players with optimized decks. Another problem is that the public queue does not prepare the player for CW. The playstyles tend to be quite different, the public queue tends to be more open and LRM friendly, the CW is the opposite and you better get ready for some brawling. Assaults tend to carry the public games, while lights are more vitally important to CW.

Having only a 13.5% of the total MWO gaming population playing CW is not a healthy sign at all. That is probably at its peak, it probably is much less during average week times otherwise the total MWO population is really that small.

The maps need some working at, but I guess each newer map reflects back on the experiences of the older ones and so on. After all the maps are introduced (12 maps, one for each wedge), I suspect they may go through a new pass on the maps. They need to.

I feel that public queue versions of the CW maps (without the bases) should be introduced, and the public queue should have a dropship mode too as an option. We need some kind of transition to help public players into the CW. We also need systems like no trial mechs into CW, since that is only feeding minnows to the sharks, and these players are likely never to play CW again after the horrible experience.

[Adamski]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2015 - 06:54 PM, said:

Are you aware that there's NO Elo system in Community Warfare?

I guess you didnt read the subtext of that statement, I'll be blunt, PuGs are of a lower skill and drive less effective mechs than Premade players.

A bad pilot in a worse mech < A bad pilot in a good mech < A good pilot in a bad mech < A good pilot in a good mech

[Triordinant]

Adamski, on 14 April 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

I guess you didnt read the subtext of that statement, I'll be blunt, PuGs are of a lower skill and drive less effective mechs than Premade players.

A bad pilot in a worse mech < A bad pilot in a good mech < A good pilot in a bad mech < A good pilot in a good mech

This is generally true because the competitive premades have weekly training as a team and strategy sessions to come up with the best 'mech combinations, loadouts and tactics. However, even when the PUG players are better, their quality is more than made up for by the well-oiled teamwork of the premade. In CW, teamwork trumps everything, including pilot skill.

Edited by Triordinant, 14 April 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

Honestly, I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over to people who constantly bring up the same argument despite knowing that CW is intended for high-end group play.

PUGs choose to enter CW or not, and know what they are getting into if they do. Their own actions cause their troubles, and the solution lies with them. If they choose not to act as part of their team, with VOIP or not, then the results are what they ask for. If they do act as part of a team, then it will still come down to the skill of their team against the other, and they -still- might lose horribly because they simply are not as good a team on that particular battle as the other, or are myopic-focused on playing CW matches as though they were mech-bash fights instead of objective-focused.

I'm done trying to show people who should know already where the causes for their troubles lay, and am just going to let them go ahead and change CW to however the mob wants. When it is as worthless and broken as Public has become and the unique challenges that make CW worth playing are dulled into conformity to accommodate the lowest level of player ability in the community, they will only have themselves to blame when the battles become pointless brawls without a shred of thinking needed.

Bravo.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 14 April 2015 - 07:18 PM.

[Triordinant]

Jakob Knight, on 14 April 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

PUGs choose to enter CW or not, and know what they are getting into if they do. Their own actions cause their troubles, and the solution lies with them.

For most PUGs, the solution is to NOT play CW and most have already done that.

Jakob Knight, on 14 April 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

I'm done trying to show people who should know already where the causes for their troubles lay, and am just going to let them go ahead and change CW to however the mob wants.

They should NOT change CW so that everybody ends up in it. It should remain a separate area reserved for competitive teams and the few PUGs who like it.

[Mystere]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

In CW, teamwork trumps everything, including pilot skill.

You make it sound as if that basic principle only applies in CW.

[Triordinant]

Mystere, on 14 April 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

You make it sound as if that basic principle only applies in CW.

It's much less true in the solo-only queue.

[Mystere]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

It's much less true in the solo-only queue.

Only for those who do not know how teamwork works.

[Triordinant]

Mystere, on 14 April 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

Only for those who do not know how teamwork works.

LOL, that sounds like the vast majority of the players in the solo-only queue. However, I have to say the few times that I type out a plan before the match start countdown ends AND my teammates go with it, it's like magic.

[Yokaiko]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

This is generally true because the competitive premades have weekly training as a team and strategy sessions to come up with the best 'mech combinations, loadouts and tactics. However, even when the PUG players are better, their quality is more than made up for by the well-oiled teamwork of the premade. In CW, teamwork trumps everything, including pilot skill.

Good pilot in a mech to his playstlye > the rest.

Period.

I shed thinga in a variety of Dragons, and have since CB. How? Its the first mech I fell in love with when it was mech #7 introduced.

Does that make it good? Nope, its hard mode (minus the -1N) but its not something I would drop in a comp match.

[sycocys]

Anjian, on 14 April 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

I will admit though, that the maps are not solo friendly, they tend to channel solo players into gauntlets of firing lines comprised of players with optimized decks. Another problem is that the public queue does not prepare the player for CW. The playstyles tend to be quite different, the public queue tends to be more open and LRM friendly, the CW is the opposite and you better get ready for some brawling. Assaults tend to carry the public games, while lights are more vitally important to CW.

The things is that before the split queues - standard queue was actually full of teamwork and would have plentifully prepared all players for CW, or could have simply been folded right in. Like others have mentioned, it their own fault for demanding to have easy mode engaged and allow a setting where their skills and ability to work as a team would deteriorate or not develop at all in the case of many players that game after that bunch of the LCD.

Basically the players that demanded to have a mode where they would never have to play against anyone that presented a consistent challenge forced the devs to make this mode to give the players that wanted a higher level of gameplay a place to go. If you want to move to playing CW, its required to learn to up your game to include teamwork and following commands regardless of how good of a pug/solo player your may be - and if that's not something that interests a player then they have the queue they created.

I would suggest for players looking to move to more CW to use the LFG tool for both, but especially for standard queue during the slow times and start building small teams and begin working on your teamwork and coordination there in faster somewhat easier to manage settings.

[Jon Gotham]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

So what you're saying is if you're not really into teamwork, CW is not for you. Sounds about right. According to Russ Bullock in the last Town Hall meeting, 86.5% of all MWO players have decided CW is not for them.

Then they are the smart ones. If they don't want to teamwork, or to speak or type or join others then they made the right choice...would you not agree?
But making thread after thread about you deliberately spoiling your own chances and stuffing your own fun by being antisocial and ignorant by your OWN CHOICE is the height of gross stupidity. It's shockingly ignorant.
As is having an anti-premade attitude in a game designed around groups in the first place.....
And, where did you get that number?

[sycocys]

That was the number from about a month before the CW event, accurate according to Russ or Paul - whichever of them twittered it instead of came to the forums to discuss it.

But your right, it really get to the point of just sad when players get told over and over and over again how teamwork is essential in this game yet they seem to think the game needs to be built around the solo player.

Tools are in the game now so you don't have to even go to hubs or add friends to make organized groups, or actually make groups at all for that matter - if you still refuse to work as a team you deserve to get stomped on.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 April 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

I enjoy pugging in CW. .... Those rewards for playing CW, and the perks of being able to play a new game mode and maps? Those are for those players who WANT to play CW. ...

I don't think anyone calling for the solo maps to be made a part of CW said to necessarily share in the current LP system. I can see it being greatly reduced in LP gain or no LP at all. Either way I believe the call to move the solo queue into being a part of CW was in regards to game content, of which this game has very little content for long term play.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Anjian, on 14 April 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

.....
I feel that public queue versions of the CW maps (without the bases) should be introduced, and the public queue should have a dropship mode too as an option. We need some kind of transition to help public players into the CW. We also need systems like no trial mechs into CW, since that is only feeding minnows to the sharks, and these players are likely never to play CW again after the horrible experience.

No, don't do this. A new player may friends already in the game, all you are doing is separating people. A new player may be a very good gamer. A new player may prefer CW style of play than the solo queue from the beginning.

This is the same crap design you get in most MMO's where a friend joins in later or doesn't have the same free time that others do. They want to play with friends but they can't because they have to spend weeks or months getting to level 50! PGI should avoid this well trodden design path.

[mekabuser]

Adamski, on 14 April 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

I guess you didnt read the subtext of that statement, I'll be blunt, PuGs are of a lower skill and drive less effective mechs than Premade players.

A bad pilot in a worse mech < A bad pilot in a good mech < A good pilot in a bad mech < A good pilot in a good mech

ill b blunt. your premise is wrong and your reasoning is flawed.

[mekabuser]

Geist Null, on 14 April 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

the team leader can move players in groups and increase a chance in changing which section of the respawn you drop in. knowledge, it saves lives.

your snark is useless.yes dropping into a diff lz via pgi smooth "commander"tactics lets me live 20 seconds longer. you dont get it. im leaving matches since i know how to stay alive long enough whereby ill have two remaining drops n team is half dead. keep thinking ur doing something meaningful in cw

[Triordinant]

kamiko kross, on 15 April 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Then they are the smart ones. If they don't want to teamwork, or to speak or type or join others then they made the right choice...would you not agree?

Absolutely agree. They are the smart ones.

kamiko kross, on 15 April 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

And, where did you get that number?

The answer to Question #16 here.

[sycocys]

mekabuser, on 15 April 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

your snark is useless.yes dropping into a diff lz via pgi smooth "commander"tactics lets me live 20 seconds longer. you dont get it. im leaving matches since i know how to stay alive long enough whereby ill have two remaining drops n team is half dead. keep thinking ur doing something meaningful in cw

In almost 100% of the matches I've been in where certain players had 2 mechs left when their team was racking perma's it was because that player was not taking his share of the damage spread. Hiding and not drawing the necessary aggro to extend your teams dps effectively makes the player with the extra drops the weakest link in the chain. Doesn't matter if you are sniping and muster 2k damage - you didn't perform part of your role in this mode and the rest of your team vastly under performs because of that.

So in addition to just quitting the match, you aren't taking the time to actually learn what needs to be done to be an effective teammate in this mode.

[Apnu]

I hate that CW has become synonymous with "premade" Community Warfare should involve the whole MWO community. Lone wolf, group player, comp, tryhard, newbie, weirdo builders. So when I refer to "CW" I'm not talking about what it is now, but what it could be. For that reason I say "Invasion/Counter Attack" instead of "CW" to mean the hardcore team based mode of this game.

Now... on with the show...

If public queue PUGs were in CW some how, this would be great. Because:

First we can get rid of the public queue, so less buckets to divide the MWO community.

Second, PUGs would have a reason to care about the IS map, this builds community.

Third, premades (say 2-4) could hang out in PUG CW queues and use it as a recruitment tool to help PUGs try out the full Invasion/Counter Attack modes that should have a huge impact on the IS map.

But what about lone wolves who won't pick a faction? Simple, make them take a contract before looking for a game (or group) with a faction that lasts some short period of time, like na hour or one match or something like that. Since they're true solo mercs, they should have a contract with some faction.

But what about the players who insist on playing mix tech (meaning wanting to grup up in a TBR with a pal in a AS7)? The solution is simple: Solaris. Make Solaris be the "do whatever you like, bring whatever you like" game planet. And put in some cool individual and team ladders too. This would be Twitch gold.

All this comes from the fact that I burnt out on the Invasion mode pretty fast and no spend 75% of my time PUGing the solo and group queues. Those games feel hollow because I like the quick experience of the public queue, they lack context to immersion in the BT universe. I'd love it if those games mattered to the IS map in some way. I don't see any reason why I can't PUG but also have it mean something to the IS map.