53 replies to this topic

[Versak]

This game seems really non-competitive on an individual level. In other games even that have more players in a round, one player can totally wreck. But in this game the nature of the mechs seems to make that impossible. Like I can do 800 damage in my assault pretty easily but it doesn't matter because I'm still losing armor over time. No amount of skill can cause me to not take damage in an engagement unless I literally headshot all the time. Eventually I go down no matter how skillful I am.

When you're not a frontline mech it's even worse. As a Catapult like I frequently am, I'm just boned if the other team has ECM and my team hasn't got anything. I'm just boned if my team leaves gaps for me to get rushed. I'm just boned if no one bothers to press R during battle. If I'm a Raven, I'm just boned if no one wants to engage. I'm boned if everyone just suicides and I have no one to distract for me.

So in a nutshell, this game sucks if you're playing alone, but games like this are generally about "Eh I'm gonna play a few rounds by myself after work then do something else" to a lot of people.

Maybe I'm just stupid to think I can play a support role on the internet, though.

Edited by Versak, 13 April 2015 - 06:46 PM.

[FupDup]

There is individual skillz, but then again one person is gonna have a hard time killing all 12 mechs singlehandedly...

[Khobai]

There used to be individual skill when 8v8 was a thing.

Individual skill got drowned out a lot in 12v12.

[InRev]

Certain mechs are carry mechs. If you are a good shot with gauss, can maintain a beam on critical components with lasers, and can torso twist and return fire efficiently, a mech like a Timby or a Dire Whale can definitely carry in the pub queue. That's what separates players like Proton from the chaff in the underhive. If you watch them play, they have a freakish ability to put damage downrange into vital areas, often maintaining a beam in a single component when most players would wash over the entire mech.

Situational awareness is also a huge component in this game. Good players can maximize their damage done and minimize their damage taken by knowing where to go, when to go there and how to get there while avoiding return fire. Bad players yolo; good players push aggressively. Knowing how to tread that fine line is supremely important.

[Triordinant]

Hopefully, we'll have Solaris soon.

[One Medic Army]

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

There used to be individual skill when 8v8 was a thing.

Individual skill got drowned out a lot in 12v12.

I would love for 8v8 to come back. Heck, I'd like a 4v4 mode as well while we're at it.

[Versak]

InRev, on 13 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Certain mechs are carry mechs. If you are a good shot with gauss, can maintain a beam on critical components with lasers, and can torso twist and return fire efficiently, a mech like a Timby or a Dire Whale can definitely carry in the pub queue.

Situational awareness is also a huge component in this game. Good players can maximize their damage done and minimize their damage taken

I agree with those things but even doing really pro stuff only minimizes your damage, as you said. It's not like World of Tanks where I could literally avoid damage entirely by knowing my tank and the maps well, or like an FPS where I can avoid damage entirely again by attacking just right. In this game, you take damage over time, no matter what. But the problem is that really means assault mechs and mechs you named are the best way to pug, but I wanna play other things.

I got super good at World of Tanks and Planetside 2 because I figured out the pub mind, you know? That game had various dynamics going to it that I could master and just roll people all the time. I mean, PS2 frequently is 92vs92 and I could just dominate with the application of my individual skill and effect a battle well by myself. I can't figure out what that is in this game at all to the point where I don't think it really exists besides a nominal "a great player can only hope to take less damage but still take it then die" kind of thing. Especially if I like playing a Catapult.

[LordBraxton]

this is why 8v8 was better

[Tarogato]

My framerate yearns for 8v8.

[InRev]

Versak, on 13 April 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

I can't figure out what that is in this game at all to the point where I don't think it really exists besides a nominal "a great player can only hope to take less damage but still take it then die" kind of thing. Especially if I like playing a Catapult.

The key in this game is spreading damage and trading wisely. A lot of competitive builds have shield sides so they can trade substantial amounts of hitpoints without losing effectiveness. Ideally, however, you want to avoid unfavorable engagements entirely.

If there is a firing line in your path, just avoid the chokepoint and hit them from another direction. Obviously, this isn't really possible in CW, which is usually just a big clusterlove of chokepoints, but most pub maps allow you some degree of wiggle room. You have to pick your battles. Basically, play every match of this game like you were in a Batchat in WoT. They have no armor whatsoever in that game, yet good players could still carry by exploiting their speed, maneuverability and burst firepower.

Unfortunately, you will never be able to do that in a Catapult. LRMs are a bad weapon system and Cats have model issues that make them pretty squishy. Good players can still do well in less-than-optimal mechs (Proton in a Gargles, for instance), but to truly carry like you desire, you still have to pick the right mech with the right loadout (usually something with high, pinpoint alpha)

Edited by InRev, 13 April 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Versak, on 13 April 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

I agree with those things but even doing really pro stuff only minimizes your damage, as you said. It's not like World of Tanks where I could literally avoid damage entirely by knowing my tank and the maps well, or like an FPS where I can avoid damage entirely again by attacking just right. In this game, you take damage over time, no matter what. But the problem is that really means assault mechs and mechs you named are the best way to pug, but I wanna play other things.

I got super good at World of Tanks and Planetside 2 because I figured out the pub mind, you know? That game had various dynamics going to it that I could master and just roll people all the time. I mean, PS2 frequently is 92vs92 and I could just dominate with the application of my individual skill and effect a battle well by myself. I can't figure out what that is in this game at all to the point where I don't think it really exists besides a nominal "a great player can only hope to take less damage but still take it then die" kind of thing. Especially if I like playing a Catapult.

with that logic you probably think that mobas like lol don't need any individual skill too even though they are 5v5 with respawn
you will get damage there no matter what and probably never can 1v5 or actually even 1v3 with full hp/cd so you always depend on your team

[Versak]

bad arcade kitty, on 13 April 2015 - 07:11 PM, said:

with that logic you probably think that mobas like lol don't need any individual skill too even though they are 5v5 with respawn
you will get damage there no matter what and probably never can 1v5 or actually even 1v3 with full hp/cd so you always depend on your team

Firstly, that isn't what I think. Secondly, that's not analogous.

InRev, on 13 April 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Unfortunately, you will never be able to do that in a Catapult. LRMs are a bad weapon system and Cats have model issues that make them pretty squishy. Good players can still do well in less-than-optimal mechs (Proton in a Gargles, for instance), but to truly carry like you desire, you still have to pick the right mech with the right loadout (usually something with high, pinpoint alpha)

I don't really even wanna carry. I just wish I wasn't so to the whims of what my team does in that case sometimes. That's kind of why I Catapult also, though. The Catapult does really need the team, which kind of takes the pressure off when I just wanna screw off after work a few matches. But even with I'm assault meching for serious I hate that feeling that I can only do so much.

Anyway, I think this thread is pretty done. Besides the one guy, it's all people going "Yah I agree you can only do so much, 8vs8 was cooler about that"

[Abisha]

I think their is
and yea you can take only so much damage before destroyed but it's up to you how much you can take.
dieing with your mech at 60% is clearly your fault and doing it wrong.

at 30% it's normal to go down.

[Cyborne Elemental]

There is absolutely room for individual skill in the game.

1 good player can make a big difference, but put 2 or 3 mechs against that same good player at the same time, even if he does survive and makes it out alive he's not going to have anything left to fight much more.

Teamwork and focus fire will always win out against any solo rambo.

So when you hear guys over the mic or typing out in chat "Focus Hotel" or "Target Charlie", those are the guys you want to be standing next to and supporting because they know whats going on.

[Wrathful Scythe]

Well, increase the number of players in each team and the individual gets less and less important. In an 5v5 environment each player is important. In a 12v12 this importance is degressing.

You can still carry the game pretty good in MWO I might say. If I see myself in a loosing streak I stop dropping in my Awesome and start dropping in my Direwolf and my problems vanish most of the time.... just like the enemys in front of me.

[Thunder Child]

Well, they could always buff the 9S back to One Man Army Level. But, this is a TEAM game. There should always be SOME reliance on your team-mates, no matter how good you are.

And I feel your pain regarding WoT. What I wouldn't give to be able to "bounce" an AC20 shell with my Atlas' shoulder. But even in WoT, you do NEED your team-mates. Whether they are drawing fire while you wreck face, or wrecking face while you draw fire, as soon as one team has a clear numerical advantage, it's usually (but not always, just like in MWO) GG.

Personally, I would love some bigger, less MASSIVE FUNNEL OF DEATH, style maps. With better objective systems and mission types. Something that allows Scout Mechs to actually SCOUT, and makes teams using Lance Tactics superior to Teams that just Deathball.

But, that just ain't how MWO rolls, which is why I've spent more time on WoT lately.

[stjobe]

Versak, on 13 April 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

As a Catapult like I frequently am, I'm just boned if the other team has ECM and my team hasn't got anything. I'm just boned if my team leaves gaps for me to get rushed. I'm just boned if no one bothers to press R during battle.

Get a TAG, get your own locks. Hell, get an ERPPC and shoot the ECM 'mech. Learn to use LRMs at medium range and in Line of Sight.

Whatever you do, don't put yourself at the mercy of your team mates in a PUG game. As you say, they're all "meh, just gonna play a round or two before heading off to the pub".

As to your title question, yes. There is definitely individual skill in this game - to the point of winning matches. Not necessarily by single-handedly taking out the whole enemy team, but by making that one shot hit here, and that enemy shot miss there. It all adds up, and in the end you walk away 12-10 instead of 10-12.

[Mystere]

Why are people surprised that Teamwork >> Rambo in a team-oriented game?

[Impossible Wasabi]

1) You can completely avoid damage, but it requires positioning and timing, just like in your standard FPS.

2) If all you care about is rolling pubbers or average groups, then there is definitely a "mindset" that you can
figure out that will make it fairly easy to roll most 10-12 man unit drops.

3) InRev has made some excellent points in his posts

4) The Space Pope isn't sure how you find that individual skill doesn't matter, it matters in Solo drops, it matters in Pug/Group Drops and it matters in competition.

5) A caveat is that sure, some mechs are going to be better at "carrying" at others, but the same applies to WoT (and other games)...

6) Sure, in 8 vs. 8 individual player skill was even more important (logically due to lower numbers of total players), but it's still something that matters and it's fairly silly to claim it doesn't...now that doesn't mean it is easy to solo the enemy team or secure a victory if the other 11 players on your team decide to sand bag, but you can still get a victory from some ridiculously bad starts/matches

7) The Space Pope also disagrees with the thesis of your first post, skill can let you avoid damage and does keep you from harm, perhaps not all harm but that is the nature of BT/MWO, it's not about taking no damage but about taking as low damage as possible, spreading out damage and trading up (i.e. if you die after killing 3 assaults in a Raven, then you did your job).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 13 April 2015 - 09:26 PM.

[InspectorG]

Cant take a hit, dont get in the fight...an old saying.

Think of MWO more as Chess. Position and Trades.

Better position nets better trades.

Better trades net better position.

Aside from a stomp, mechs will die in an even fight. Its the coordinated effort that counts.

Now is the individual skill the pilot and his/her button mashing?

The individual skill in the pilots working together?

The individual skill of the leader?

People assume they can fight with no cost. They usually dont understand the fight.