169 replies to this topic

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Telmasa, on 17 April 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Swap the current Angel-style ECM for MW4's Guardian ECM.

All problems solved in one swoop.

I wonder from where this myth came from that PGI ECM have anything with actual any BT system including AECM?

bad arcade kitty, on 17 April 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

do you pick cap/bap on every mech to speed up your very useful target gathering?

anyway hiding your mech from the radar is the very core of ecm
hiding others around your mech adds a new support role and therefore adds the overall fun
i don't understand people who want to nerf fun

ECM is something that is very, vary not fun. Hard to believe actually someone find its fun. Its not add anything good to game play, just annoy. Game without it is just better.

Fenrisulvyn, on 17 April 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

"Because having 12 ecm mech vs 12 ecm mech (that will happen in near future) is stupid."

Why can't you bring tag and bap?

Those not work properly. The only true counter to ECM is UAV and this sink your CBs, is easy counter countered and have not much sense either. As how is that little, one use drone UAV have better sensors then a mech?
But following you logic. So 1,5 item needs to be covered by 30 tons worth of equipment?


Anyone with little salt of common sense can clearly see how ECM implementation is BS.
ECM inflation just show us this more obvious.

[charov]

Note: I get the complaing from a TT POV, but this is a FPS game. So the following considerations are from that POV.

Does the ECM stop any laser? Does it stop a Gauss Rifle or any other ballistic weapon? Or missiles perhaps. Ok, which one? The auto tracking ones. Wow..
The useful part of the ECM is the info-denial service it provides.
Tell me, if you have a couple of ER LL but the target is one step beyond your sensors rage, what do you do? You don't fire because it doesn't have the red dorito? I hope not!

Btw, the current ECM is countered by: another ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC, PPC, ER PPC, Destroying the component.

Also, FYI, you have (most of you, at least): a mouth, fingers and Eyeballs Mk I. If you see a target, even without the red dorito floating above it, you can warn your teammates in TS/VOIP or type ("2 TW C4"). We don't really need red doritos all over the map as long as ppl understand that is a very team-based game.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a proper ECM in the game but if they nerf it too much then we'll have a LRM noobapocalypse. So, before changing the ECM, we need to get rid of the free C3 (or CC, or what shares data to every mech for free). Also, we need proper missiles: more damage, more speed, few ammo/tons, damn long cooldown, Line of Sight unless NARCed or TAGged - so they'll switch from a spammable unreliable weapon, to a weapon that needs timing and positioning, but that can also do a lot of damage. Like any other weapon, basically.

TL;DR: no red doritos? Who cares, keep firing!

Btw having 12 ECM mechs vs 12 ECM mechs make having a homogeneous camo pattern & colors useful

[Khobai]

Quote

Btw, the current ECM is countered by: another ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC, PPC, ER PPC, Destroying the component.

You know why ECM has so many counters? Because most of them didnt work and they had to keep adding more... at least half those things you listed dont effectively counter ECM.

The problem with ECM is that the cost vs benefit is extremely disproportional and thats what makes it so unbalanced. 1.5 tons for everything ECM does is RIDICULOUS. Especially when most of the counters to ECM cost more tonnage than ECM itself.

Again, ECM should only stealth the mech its equipped on, and not stealth teammates. That change makes its benefits much more proportional to its cost.

Quote

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a proper ECM in the game but if they nerf it too much then we'll have a LRM noobapocalypse.

Or they could nerf ECM and rebalance LRMs properly. They never shouldve attempted to balance LRMs around ECM, that was always a terrible idea. All it accomplished was killing LRMs in competitive play because everyone takes ECM.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2015 - 02:00 AM.

[charov]

Khobai, on 18 April 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

You know why ECM has so many counters? Because most of them didnt work and they had to keep adding more...

But why do you want to counter it in the first place? Kill the carrier or play as it does not exist: when your leader calls, e.g. "focus Jagermech, left flank" you turn and fire, you don't wait nor care about locking it. Yes, it makes targeting a bit difficult if there are many similar mechs (even a warhawk can be confused for a daishi at long range, sometimes) and you don't know if a side torso of a mech with XL is open, but this is the only important effect of the ECM.

So, do they want to balance it? Then reduce its magical aura a bit but don't remove it until other features are implemented.
Do you remember the LRM noobapocalypse in CB? I do and I don't want to see it again.

[STEF_]

red devil2, on 18 April 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

Note: I get the complaing from a TT POV, but this is a FPS game. So the following considerations are from that POV.

Does the ECM stop any laser? Does it stop a Gauss Rifle or any other ballistic weapon? Or missiles perhaps. Ok, which one? The auto tracking ones. Wow..
The useful part of the ECM is the info-denial service it provides.
Tell me, if you have a couple of ER LL but the target is one step beyond your sensors rage, what do you do? You don't fire because it doesn't have the red dorito? I hope not!

Btw, the current ECM is countered by: another ECM, BAP, TAG, NARC, PPC, ER PPC, Destroying the component.

Also, FYI, you have (most of you, at least): a mouth, fingers and Eyeballs Mk I. If you see a target, even without the red dorito floating above it, you can warn your teammates in TS/VOIP or type ("2 TW C4"). We don't really need red doritos all over the map as long as ppl understand that is a very team-based game.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a proper ECM in the game but if they nerf it too much then we'll have a LRM noobapocalypse. So, before changing the ECM, we need to get rid of the free C3 (or CC, or what shares data to every mech for free). Also, we need proper missiles: more damage, more speed, few ammo/tons, damn long cooldown, Line of Sight unless NARCed or TAGged - so they'll switch from a spammable unreliable weapon, to a weapon that needs timing and positioning, but that can also do a lot of damage. Like any other weapon, basically.

TL;DR: no red doritos? Who cares, keep firing!

Btw having 12 ECM mechs vs 12 ECM mechs make having a homogeneous camo pattern & colors useful

Sorry Red, but I cannot agree.
Sure I still can fire lazors, ecc, yes there is bap, etc. but this is not the point.

The point stands in that "a battletech game" that made bt fans threw money at PGI to have it, and, possibly, to have NOT a simple fps game.
BT, and in previous mw versions, were much more STRATEGIC... thanks to radar. DAT radar display.
Why does letting mw brand to become "any pew pew robotto" fps? We already have pleanty of fps.

MW should be something more interesting and different, imo.

Beside, what is the sense to see an ecm mech at 500 metres, occupying half of your screen, BUT your radar cannot see it?
That's is simply ridicolous.

"Btw having 12 ECM mechs vs 12 ECM mechs make having a homogeneous camo pattern & colors useful", as previouls said, let's ask to chess masters if they would enjoy a chess game, in which every piece has the same color.
I read that you also add a smile writing this, maybe because you know it's going to be ridicolous. And dumb, too.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 18 April 2015 - 02:02 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

But why do you want to counter it in the first place? Kill the carrier or play as it does not exist

obviously its above your head. so ill explain in simple terms: the entire point of counters is that theyre supposed to be EASIER than killing the ecm carrier. If killing a mech is easier than countering ECM then the counters simply arnt effective.

Quote

So, do they want to balance it? Then reduce its magical aura a bit but don't remove it until other features are implemented.Do you remember the LRM noobapocalypse in CB? I do and I don't want to see it again.

Why cant they rebalance LRMs too? Certainly having LRMs be a viable weapon alternative is preferable to LRMs not being used at all. Right now LRMs dont get used at all in competitive play because ECM invalidates them as an option.

1) change ECM so it only stealths the mech its equipped on.

2) significantly nerf indirect LRMs and buff direct LRMs/artemis (artemis is simply not worth the tonnnage right now).

With those two changes, ECM would no longer be disproportional in power level, and LRMs would be a much more viable weapon that wouldnt be overpowered. Fixed.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2015 - 02:12 AM.

[STEF_]

red devil2, on 18 April 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

But why do you want to counter it in the first place? Kill the carrier or play as it does not exist: when your leader calls, e.g. "focus Jagermech, left flank" you turn and fire, you don't wait nor care about locking it. Yes, it makes targeting a bit difficult if there are many similar mechs (even a warhawk can be confused for a daishi at long range, sometimes) and you don't know if a side torso of a mech with XL is open, but this is the only important effect of the ECM.

So, do they want to balance it? Then reduce its magical aura a bit but don't remove it until other features are implemented.
Do you remember the LRM noobapocalypse in CB? I do and I don't want to see it again.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaa, very very well, indeed.
can you agree that ECm is OP, atm, and at least it needs to cover only the ecm mech, not the team?

just asking because, with this thread, I don't propose to erase ECM, but this:

1) REWORK ECM. No more teamates coverage, at least.

2) LIMIT the number of Jesus box mechs in a team per drop.

About LRM noobapocalypse: look at the lrm speed in smurfy; first I'm pretty sure that a lrm with such a pitiful speed, is harmless.
Do you remember thier speed during noobapocalyps?
Second, if a weapon systen doesn't work, the let's tune it.
Because applying an equipment outside the rules can wrech the entire rule system.
That's why Pgi's mw suck, btw. Not only because of bugs, because of ethernal skirmish mode only, etc.

[bad arcade kitty]

yet again, teammate coverage is one of the key functions of ecm which significantly adds to the gameplay and allows to help your team in another way except simply doing damage. why would anybody want to remove something like this

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 18 April 2015 - 02:19 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

yet again, teammate coverage is one of the key functions of ecm which significantly adds to the gameplay and allows to help your team in another way except simply doing damage. why would anybody want to remove something like this

how does ECM in any way significantly add to gameplay?

1) causes teams to clump up and deathball which is extremely boring
2) promotes the use of long range weapons over brawling weapons, again boring
3) invalidates entire categories of weapon systems
4) information warfare is entirely ECM-centric and nothing else matters. even light mechs like the raven that are supposed to specialize in sensor warfare are no better at it than ecm heavies/assaults.
5) isnt even balanced, 1.5 tons to stealth your whole team is absurdly disproportional

If anything ECM detracts from gameplay for all of the above reasons.

The reality is information warfare is absolutely TERRIBLE in MWO and could be so much better. Light mechs could actually have a crucial role in the game if done properly.

Quote

About LRM noobapocalypse: look at the lrm speed in smurfy; first I'm pretty sure that a lrm with such a pitiful speed, is harmless.

If ECM was nerfed, indirect LRMs would definitely have to be nerfed too (massive nerfs to indirect lrm spread and tracking). but direct LRMs should also be buffed since artemis is a piece of crap and not worth the extra tonnage.

Edited by Khobai, 18 April 2015 - 02:53 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

Khobai, on 18 April 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

how does ECM in any way significantly add to gameplay?

1) it causes teams to clump up and deathball which is extremely boring
2) it promotes the use of long range weapons over brawling weapons
3) it invalidates entire categories of weapon systems
4) ECM isnt even balanced, 1.5 tons to stealth your whole team is absurdly disproportional

If anything ECM detracts from gameplay for all of the above reasons.

The reality is sensor warfare is absolutely TERRIBLE in MWO and could be so much better.



If ECM was nerfed, indirect LRMs would definitely have to be nerfed too (massive nerfs to indirect lrm spread and tracking). but direct LRMs should also be buffed since artemis is a piece of crap and not worth the extra tonnage.

We'd also need artemis to stop applying to indirect fire like it does now.

[charov]

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 April 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

About LRM noobapocalypse: look at the lrm speed in smurfy; first I'm pretty sure that a lrm with such a pitiful speed, is harmless.
Do you remember thier speed during noobapocalyps?
Second, if a weapon systen doesn't work, the let's tune it.
Because applying an equipment outside the rules can wrech the entire rule system.
That's why Pgi's mw suck, btw. Not only because of bugs, because of ethernal skirmish mode only, etc.

Two days ago I played with some friends and I decided to take a NARC, my first time ever (lol). Me and another teammate were in a light, supported by 4x LRM boat. Do you believe that, once we NARCed the ECM carriers, the enemy died in a couple of minutes?
Yesterday I played several matches with "the guys at Dropship 12" (Comstar NA), incidentally also against your teammates. In that particular match our boats didn't do much (Crimson Strait, so plenty of covers) but it was scary how they harassed during other matches. Here, take a look. Pay attention on how many enemy mechs are NARCed. The ECM is not as scary anymore, isnt't it?

So, PGI must not remove the magical aura until the change LRM, radars, locking mechanics and info gathering and sharing. No way, really. Again, I understand perfectly you points agains the ECM from a TT point of view, but your proposal will create a huge balancing problem unless other features and components are changed accordingly.

Khobai, on 18 April 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

how does ECM in any way significantly add to gameplay?

1) it causes teams to clump up and deathball which is extremely boring
2) it promotes the use of long range weapons over brawling weapons, again boring
3) it invalidates entire categories of weapon systems
4) light mechs like the raven that are supposed to specialize in sensor warfare are no better at it than ecm heavies/assaults
5) ECM isnt even balanced, 1.5 tons to stealth your whole team is absurdly disproportional

If anything ECM detracts from gameplay for all of the above reasons.

I agree on LRMs (point 3). Still, the problem with them is that they are a no-brain sit-and-click weapon at low Elo but become almost useless at higher Elo. PGI must sto the LRM spamming, making them more efficient and reliable but decreasing the ammo/ton and increasing the cooldown. When you can't spam anymore you are forced to use your brain and skills and place yourself in a good position if you want to succeed. If this is achieved, then I see no problems in removing the magical aura.

I do not agree on your other points. How do the ECM deter brawling? Light mechs are very important if you want to deny enemy's ECM, see the video I linked before. The "clumsing up" is not an ECM-related issue. In order to win, you have to push together and focus your fire on the same target. This is quite difficult to achieve if your team is spread everywhere. Have you ever played competitively?

[Khobai]

Quote

I do not agree on your other points. How do the ECM deter brawling?

Because it makes you harder to spot at longer range. So it complements long range weapons perfectly.

Quote

The "clumsing up" is not an ECM-related issue.

Poor gamemode/map design is primarily to blame. The gamemodes dont force teams to split up more. Theres too much incentive to clump up and focus fire. And ECM compounds that problem even more. You cant say ECM doesnt contribute to the problem because it absolutely does.

[charov]

Harder to spot? How? A mech can be spotted at 2000+ meters and, at closer range, you can switch to thermal. See the video I linked above. At the beginning I was hitting at 1100m, without any doritos. Where's the problem in that? At closer range you can just switch to thermal. At 3'23", on the right, you see a raven under ECM. I didn't engage because there was other teammates on it, but does it look difficult to spot? I don't think so!

Khobai, on 18 April 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

Poor gamemode/map design is primarily to blame. The gamemodes dont force teams to split up more. Theres too much incentive to clump up and focus fire. And ECM compounds that problem even more. You cant say ECM doesnt contribute to the problem because it absolutely does.

I agree on the game mode / design, which can be massively improved, but I still fail to see how the ECM is the problem here. The point is: more mech closer → more concentrated firepower → easier to focus fire → easier to kill. The ECM is a "plus", not mandatory.

[Weeny Machine]

No worries. Soon there will be a new mech pack

[Khobai]

Quote

I agree on the game mode / design, which can be massively improved, but I still fail to see how the ECM is the problem here.

I said it contributed to the problem. There are already many reasons to clump up. ECM just adds one more.

Anything that contributes even slightly to the problem of deathballing is not helping the game.

[STEF_]

red devil2, on 18 April 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

I agree on the game mode / design, which can be massively improved, but I still fail to see how the ECM is the problem here. The point is:

It's the "problem" because the radar will become useless, as stated above.
And "more mech closer → more concentrated firepower → easier to focus fire → easier to kill. The ECM is a "plus", not mandatory.": what about noobish pilots that aren't able to use cover to close in without using ecm?
what about lrm noobmageddon, because noobs want to charge and go to brawl headless, without using cover, ams, and then qquing in the forum, because they were lurmed to death?
what about noobs that never ever look at the radar screen because this must be a simple and easy fps?

Pgi is making mwo the most easy they can for the noobs. And ruin it.

But you know what? Everybody knows that when mwo will go to steam this will be average critic from average users:
1) it's old
2) it's a fps with robbots, but there are way better fps around here.

So, in your opinion, does it worth to run to noobish and easy game?

Because imo, it isn't.

[Mar-X-maN]

While everyone bought Urbies, I started building up a new CBT game collection, after losing my all my CBT stuff except my models during a move or some other attic related issues.


I gots them original unseen models. In your face.

Edited by Mar X maN, 18 April 2015 - 03:58 AM.

[Tarogato]

ECM is fine.

IMO, you should have to shoot mechs with your eyes, not by having magic red doritos pop up over their heads saying "THERE'S A MECH HERE SHOOT IT!"

The more ECM there is, the more challenging the game becomes, the happier I get.

[charov]

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 April 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

It's the "problem" because the radar will become useless, as stated above.
And "more mech closer → more concentrated firepower → easier to focus fire → easier to kill. The ECM is a "plus", not mandatory.": what about noobish pilots that aren't able to use cover to close in without using ecm?
what about lrm noobmageddon, because noobs want to charge and go to brawl headless, without using cover, ams, and then qquing in the forum, because they were lurmed to death?
what about noobs that never ever look at the radar screen because this must be a simple and easy fps?

Pgi is making mwo the most easy they can for the noobs. And ruin it.

But you know what? Everybody knows that when mwo will go to steam this will be average critic from average users:
1) it's old
2) it's a fps with robbots, but there are way better fps around here.

So, in your opinion, does it worth to run to noobish and easy game?

Because imo, it isn't.

New users experience it's a completely different problem but how is it related to ECM? As I have already told in plenty other threads, MWO needs new tutorials and a whole new way to deal with new players. They must be guided through the building of a mech, mechanics must be explained and, after ~50 matches, they must have 3x versions of the same chassis and enough C-bills to upgrade them and buy new weapons. Still, what's the point of ECM here?

Unless a player is a total idiot, after a couple of matches he should realize than running in the open is a damn stupid idea. You can do it once and learn a lesson. Perhaps do it again because you are a donkey but sooner or later you learn. If you don't, then you have a serious problem (which is, also, is a problem of everyone if you have right to vote lol).
I don't get this part here though:

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 April 2015 - 03:52 AM, said:

what about noobish pilots that aren't able to use cover to close in without using ecm?
what about lrm noobmageddon, because noobs want to charge and go to brawl headless, without using cover, ams, and then qquing in the forum, because they were lurmed to death?
what about noobs that never ever look at the radar screen because this must be a simple and easy fps?

So, ECM is ruining the game because new players can't hide behind the rock, they charge in the open and don't look the radar anymore? Well, even when the ECM was uncommon, newbies had the same problems, actually. Probably I have misunderstood your point

Tarogato, on 18 April 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

IMO, you should have to shoot mechs with your eyes, not by having magic red doritos pop up over their heads saying "THERE'S A MECH HERE SHOOT IT!"

This, totally.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

red devil2, on 18 April 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

Note: I get the complaing from a TT POV, but this is a FPS game. So the following considerations are from that POV.

Does the ECM stop any laser? Does it stop a Gauss Rifle or any other ballistic weapon? Or missiles perhaps. Ok, which one? The auto tracking ones. Wow..

ECM is crap from any POV.

Actually ECM indeed stops laser, gauss, ballistic and missles to some degree. It was interesting experience, invisibility in my red raven. As I drive anything in red.