203 replies to this topic

[Ragtag soldier]

alpha builds lose matches. you sacrifice survivability, endurance, and reliability for making sure you landed that killing blow which is worthless to a team. whiny arguments like this just show how unskilled the playerbase is.

[Kuritaclan]

Bulletsponge0, on 19 April 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

you keep talking about alphas...but clan alphas don't do any good when they are shut down due to heat....something that is nowhere near as big of a problem for IS mechs

Heat is a tricky *******:

Edited by Kuritaclan, 19 April 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Dragon has zero alpha power.

Firestarter is an over quirked light that had the advantage of borked hitboxes (which I would like fixed as a light pilot)

Thunderbolt is short range, and has less alpha than the 10ton lighter stormcrow while being slower.

The problem with timber wolf and stormcrow is that they pack the alphas of IS assaults, but they do it at the speed of faster IS mediums.

You're neglecting the reduced burn time of the IS weapons. Their alphas are far more concentrated.

A single stalker nearly took out the core of Hellbringer yesterday specifically because you have such a low time interval to start twisting before you realize the damage is connecting. The only time I can do something equivalent to a Jager mech in my TW is when the pilot is not very good. Likewise these mechs can afford to shoot and twist due to the powerful nature of the IS autocannon; something the clans have nothing even close to.

As the devs originally aid the clan weapons are based on a higher skill threshold to maintain your lock while the burn is on.

You can't redo the clan premium mechs without first redoing the entire IS balance to make their alphas less effective.

I'm not necessarily against this either but it requires a complete rebalance of laser weapons as well as probably giving the IS autocannons a nerf.

Edited by Blueduck, 19 April 2015 - 12:16 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Remove Speed Tweak from the TW and SC. They have no business going that fast.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 19 April 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

Remove Speed Tweak from the TW and SC. They have no business going that fast.

I agree with that as long as we remove the speed tweak and reduce some of the heat perks on the premium IS mechs. Stalkers got no business doing that kind of pinpoint alpha.

[Khobai]

Quote

Remove Speed Tweak from the TW and SC. They have no business going that fast.

no assault/heavy has business going that fast. speed tweak should be removed entirely from all heavy/assault skill trees.

one of the major reasons that mediums suffer is because heavies can go just as fast as mediums... by removing speed tweak from all heavies and assault you would help mediums.

[Shinikaru]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Since a lot of people agree that the DW, TW and SC at least need taken down a bit lets talk about the best way to do that and why. Also if you do not agree they need nerfed explain why. Looking forward to hear what you have to say on the subject. Thanks!

Agility (accel/decel/torso yaw rate/turn rate etc)

Durability (armor, struture, hitboxes)

Firepower (heat gen, coodown, duration etc)

Heat (heat dissipation/heat capacity)

Changes could be to just the mech or across the board to Clans with a buff later to the weaker clan mechs to bring them back up.

Please share what you think would be best.

Here is what I personally would like to see happen.

DW - Since it is already not agile and slow heat capacity seems fine for a fix. And probably does not have to be a huge hit even. Also at the same time offset this with a buff to turning maybe?

TW - This one is a bit harder since its so good at everything. I noticed some people want large agility nerfs while others would like fire power nerfs or durability nerfs instead of agility nerfs. Personaly I dislike mobility nerfs on mechs that are supposed to be mobile and agile. For example how the nerfed the Victor in the past to stop jump sniping and it hurt all of the Victor builds. The TW has a very large engine per its weight so I really think it should keep the agility and get nerfs to duration or and cool down and or heat gen. You could even give it negative range quirks if you think that is one of the main factors. But I very much do not want this large engine mech being nerfed into moving like an Atlas.

SC - The SC like the TW has just about everything going for it. To me the first thing to nerf on the Storm crow is Durability. It has amazing hit boxes and takes damage like larger mechs. Bringing this part into line with other mechs of its tonnage would be a good start. Since it has positive movement quirks seems natural to remove these as a start. At the same time give it a bit of negative quirks to heat gen etc. I think this three way combination of hits would do it. You would just have to be careful not to over nerf it.

Next is more of a question than a suggestion. The Hellbringer is not on the same level as the big three but its also better than the mechs below it in many ways. Should it have a small nerf of some kind or just leave it like it is?

For bonus points what would you do about some of the bottom tier mechs like the Awesome Pretty Baby, Catapult C4, Vindicator 1X etc.

Please explain why you want certain nerfs and not just what nerfs you want.

Out of general interest here is the same question over at Reddit Outreach HPG. http://www.reddit.co...o_fix_dw_tw_st/

And related threads http://www.reddit.co..._priority_when/

The last time PGI decided to listen to the playerbase rather than the game designers, for changes to balance, they ended up breaking the game in multiple places, losing customers, and losing players.

I for one hope they continue to listen, but mostly IGNORE complaints, and let them balance out the game as it is. Its actually the best balanced its ever been.

[Kuritaclan]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

no assault/heavy has business going that fast. speed tweak should be removed entirely from all heavy/assault skill trees.

The Speed without Speedtweak is 81kp/H and actually clanmechs are supposed to move with 86,4kp/H in this weightclass (MDD,HBR,SMN,TBR) - speedtweak is 89.1kp/h. Don't know if the 3,5kp/H less speed would do that much.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 19 April 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[DarkExar]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Since a lot of people agree that the DW, TW and SC at least need taken down a bit lets talk about the best way to do that and why.

By making 3 lances vs binary

Quote

Also if you do not agree they need nerfed explain why.

And removing all quirks from IS mechs, with special attention to Thundercrap, Firejunk and Large Vomiting Stalker.

So much writing and its all about just two small things.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

no assault/heavy has business going that fast. speed tweak should be removed entirely from all heavy/assault skill trees.

one of the major reasons that mediums suffer is because heavies can go just as fast as mediums... by removing speed tweak from all heavies and assault you would help mediums.

I definitely dont disagree

Blueduck, on 19 April 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

I agree with that as long as we remove the speed tweak and reduce some of the heat perks on the premium IS mechs. Stalkers got no business doing that kind of pinpoint alpha.

Firepower and mobility have nothing to do with each other.

[Khobai]

Quote

The Speed without Speedtweak is 81kp/H and actually clanmechs are supposed to move with 86,4kp/H in this weightclass (MDD,HBR,SMN,TBR) - speedtweak is 89.1kp/h. Don't know if the 3,5kp/H less speed would do that much.

Speed tweak adds 10%. By removing 10% speed the timberwolf would cap out at 81kph not 86.4kph.

I dont care about battletech lore. I care about whats balanced in MWO. and timberwolves going 86-90 isnt balanced in MWO.


There's way too much overlap between the speed of heavies and the speed of mediums.

The difference in speed between mediums and heavies should be equally drastic to the difference in speed between lights and mediums or heavies and assaults.

Removing speed tweak for heavies and assaults and giving them a different skill instead would fix the speed overlap and give us something more like this:

Tiny Lights go upto 170kph
Lights go 110-150kph
Mediums go 80-120kph
Heavies go 60-80kph
Assaults go 50-70kph

No more heavies going as fast as mediums.

Edited by Khobai, 19 April 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Mystere]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

Because that is not what the problem is with the DW, TW and SC. Yes those can be looked at but are just not why these three mechs stand out.

But those are the root causes of other problems. As such, I'd rather the root causes first be fixed before touching Mechs lest they suffer a double whammy.

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

No more heavies going as fast as mediums.

What is the point then of including in MWO heavies specifically designed to be as fast as mediums, or <gasp> assaults specifically designed to be as fast as heavies? Aesthetics? Nostalgia?

Because if that is the case, then PGI and Adhesive should probably just merge and produce a generic "Rock 'em Sock 'em" robot game.

Edited by Mystere, 19 April 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

I dont care about battletech lore. I care about whats balanced in MWO. and timberwolves going 86-90 isnt balanced in MWO.

well, many see it diffrent and love their TT-ruleset spread all around this game.

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

There's way too much overlap between the speed of heavies and the speed of mediums.

It is between all classes a overlap, since they are only 5t off on the borders, they overlap. And i actually don't know how a clan mech which has a locked engine will be hurt, but a direwolf without speedtweak is a brick - even with it he can't hold up the speed of the team. Oh and btw lorewise he sneaks 54kp/h (http://www.sarna.net...lf_%28Daishi%29), and guess what speedtweak is according to smurfy 53,5 kp/h (http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=172). So i would say chances your proposal to come true are limes to zero.

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

The difference in speed between mediums and heavies should be equally drastic to the difference in speed between lights and mediums or heavies and assaults.

What should this be?

[One Medic Army]

Bulletsponge0, on 19 April 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

you keep talking about alphas...but clan alphas don't do any good when they are shut down due to heat....something that is nowhere near as big of a problem for IS mechs

If you're shutting down in the open, you're doing it wrong. Step out, alpha someone, step back behind cover. You know, like a stalker does because it's also super-weak up close in a DPS fight.

Blueduck, on 19 April 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

You're neglecting the reduced burn time of the IS weapons. Their alphas are far more concentrated.

A single stalker nearly took out the core of Hellbringer yesterday specifically because you have such a low time interval to start twisting before you realize the damage is connecting. The only time I can do something equivalent to a Jager mech in my TW is when the pilot is not very good. Likewise these mechs can afford to shoot and twist due to the powerful nature of the IS autocannon; something the clans have nothing even close to.

As the devs originally aid the clan weapons are based on a higher skill threshold to maintain your lock while the burn is on.

You can't redo the clan premium mechs without first redoing the entire IS balance to make their alphas less effective.

I'm not necessarily against this either but it requires a complete rebalance of laser weapons as well as probably giving the IS autocannons a nerf.

You talk about stalker, but the 4N actually doesn't have any burn time quirks, and the burn time difference between the IS LL and the ERMLS is actually pretty small. 1sec vs 1.15 sec.

The base dmg/heat ratio is 1.29 vs 1.17. The IS LL costs 5 tons per 9 dmg, while the clan laser costs 1ton per 7 dmg. Accounting for 20% range and heat quirks on the 4N the IS LL is 9dmg/5.6heat at 540m for 5 tons. The clan ERMLS is 7dmg/6heat at 405m for 1ton. The ghost heat limit is 27dmg vs 42dmg.

The stalker pays far more tonnage than a Timberwolf/Hellbringer/Stormcrow, has more heatsinks, and has cooler weaponry. It's also vastly slower and has a much stricter ghost heat limit. The burn time for the weapons is actually pretty close, and the dmg/sec of beam is strongly in favor of the clan mechs if you're both firing at the ghost heat limit due to 3LL vs 6ERML.

My problem isn't the firepower of the stormcrow or the Timberwolf, it's that they can fit that firepower, go 106.9 and 89.1 kph, and won't die by a single side torso. A 55ton IS medium with a std300 goes 97.2 and has ~17 tons for weaponry/DHS/ammo/jumpjets (using endo and ferro). You could go XL300, but then you're much more fragile than a stormcrow. To equal the alpha power of a Scrow you'd need 8medium lasers, have a shorter range, and incur ghost heat. Plus the IS mediums don't tend to have much in the way of hardpoints (6-8total, spread across at least 2 weapon types for the 8s usually).

[Spleenslitta]

I never use clan mechs so i can't know how they handle but i know one thing for certain-
- I don't have any more problems fighting a clan mech than an IS mech. Well except for the Clan Streak boats but those are lethal to all light mechs.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

No more heavies going as fast as mediums.

Hunchbacks are usually faster than 89, Cent-D can pass 130 Cicada is well over 120.

What is this bashpeme you speak? Because none of that is grounded in reality.

[InspectorG]

Ragtag soldier, on 19 April 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

alpha builds lose matches. you sacrifice survivability, endurance, and reliability for making sure you landed that killing blow which is worthless to a team. whiny arguments like this just show how unskilled the playerbase is.

I wouldnt say that as a definite. Comes down to playstyle and balance. Pug/CW/etc.

My meta whale can alpha twice with 75 damage, which will core most non assaults. Those pilots get way more cautious once they have no more ct armor.

[Matthew Ace]

Kuritaclan, on 19 April 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

The Speed without Speedtweak is 81kp/H and actually clanmechs are supposed to move with 86,4kp/H in this weightclass (MDD,HBR,SMN,TBR) - speedtweak is 89.1kp/h. Don't know if the 3,5kp/H less speed would do that much.

They are supposed to move 81 kph instead of 86.4 kph; hex-rounding and stuff. You can't move 7.5 hex in TT.

[Telmasa]

One Medic Army, on 19 April 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Dragon has zero alpha power.
Firestarter is an over quirked light that had the advantage of borked hitboxes (which I would like fixed as a light pilot)
Thunderbolt is short range, and has less alpha than the 10ton lighter stormcrow while being slower.
The problem with timber wolf and stormcrow is that they pack the alphas of IS assaults, but they do it at the speed of faster IS mediums.

- Dragon1N has completely obscene DPS that makes up for any lack of "alpha" in the span of just a couple seconds
- Firestarters have been mostly de-quirked, it's only the MPL firestarter that is still OP and that's because it still has dual heat reduction quirks
- Thunderbolt is currently able to fire MPLs at 50% higher range than normal. That's like LL range, dude, that's not remotely "short range". Not to mention its alpha is not only not that far below a Stormcrow, but its DPS (thanks to cooling and cooldown quirks) is also insanely higher.

You're not fully considering all the variables here.

AntiCitizenJuan, on 19 April 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

Remove Speed Tweak from the TW and SC. They have no business going that fast.

Khobai, on 19 April 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

no assault/heavy has business going that fast. speed tweak should be removed entirely from all heavy/assault skill trees.
one of the major reasons that mediums suffer is because heavies can go just as fast as mediums... by removing speed tweak from all heavies and assault you would help mediums.

This is so wrong.

You can take same-tonnage IS mechs and mount the same-rating XL engines and go the same speeds.

Don't believe me, go experiment in smurfy awhile. It's pretty straightforward.

It's really not that complicated. Generally speaking most players just don't take the risk of XL engines - that or they use smaller rating ones to pack on more equipment, and thus wind up not going as fast.

Imagine just for a moment what would happen if clan mechs didn't have fixed engines.

You'd be able to take an XL255 on a Timberwolf and pack on the firepower of a Warhawk.

Yeah, THAT would be pretty dumb and OP.

[Sjorpha]

Telmasa, on 19 April 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

This is so wrong.

You can take same-tonnage IS mechs and mount the same-rating XL engines and go the same speeds.

Don't believe me, go experiment in smurfy awhile. It's pretty straightforward.

Nitpick: there is only one 75 ton IS mech and it can't use a 375.