203 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Vandul, on 18 April 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

Really, you went there?

It's a Poker expression. You can Pass, Fold, See (which means you equal the current bet amount), or Raise which means you increase the bet total.

And 'Poker Face', means no one can read your expression on whether you are happy or troubled with your hand of cards.

[Kuritaclan]

Juodas Varnas, on 18 April 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Timberwolf, Stormcrow and the Hellbringer are the main troublemakers.

It isn't personal, but when i read such lines i shake my head. 3 mechs do make trouble. If they are gone the trouble is gone. They will go if other mechs are better, this is the only solution to get rid of the so called "troublemakers". This means something along following those words: Everybody who played clans and see a dropdeck like TBR,3xSCR or 2xTBR,HBR,MLX-filler or 3xHBR, IFR-filler, knows that if you get forced to bringing something like 2xSMN,2xNVA what matches also 240T isn't the same by all means and if such a combo like 2SMN/2NVA would be a better dropdeck over other solutions clans are in serious troubles. If the demand is to cut down TBR, HBR and SCR to a niveau that they are as bad as a dropdeck mentioned above, well i do not have words for it.

Clans had 53% win rate in the last evalution it is a bit high - we all get it (beside that nobody knows the numbers behind the statistic lead to the results presented by russ - don't trust a staistic you didn't faked yourself). Since we all know Clan win by bringing those three Mechs without doubt and in mass, what remain to take after they got adjusted to a shadow of their "now" to make the others viable as a dropdeck in first choice! (Because this is the implication of shoping down the TBR,SCR,HBR - anything else would mean no real change) Did anybody think that it will decrease the win rate by only 3 percent if this mechs get droped down the letter to the bottom line? Since this is the consequence to claim a change in dropdeck to involve the lower tiers. SMNs, NVAs and the others beside for lvling XP reasons or just the fun are in drop decks (but not for the goal to win), they are not the reason for a win - so they did not get fit into dropdecks on mass, if they win then they got pulled by the top end named TBR,SCR,HBR.

How about this, give us a week in Community Warfare, disable the feared TBR,SCR and HBR, so clans are forced to build their dropdecks out of the remaining mechs. Beside that we may not see one CW match, i would be very interested in the win/loss numbers.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 18 April 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

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And instead of starting another futile round of nerfs/buffs that might just go full circle like the rest of them have, why not first attack the root of the problem: borked animations, faulty hit registration, automatic near-instant pinpoint convergence, borked hit boxes, etc., etc., etc.?

Because that is not what the problem is with the DW, TW and SC. Yes those can be looked at but are just not why these three mechs stand out.

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Wait who said most of us agree that those me hs need to be taken down?

Your right and it has already been changed. I know there are a lot of people but no idea of what percentage. Trying to reflect that now in original post.

[FupDup]

All 3 of them: Adjustments to overall Clan tech like the XL, lasers, Gauss, etc.

Whale: I'd try something like -5% ballistic cooldown on each of the Prime arms and Alt B side torsos. This is primarily meant to nerf the super-duper dakka 6 UAC/5 build, because you'd get a total of -20% ballistic cooldown. Nerfing this build would give PGI a better excuse to give a modest global buff to Clan UACs without fear of the Whale becoming even more powerful.

Doomcrow: Remove the +15% twist speed quirk from the CT (replace with +0%, do NOT give it negative here). Also, reduce the default max twist range to about 90-110 degrees (current is 130 degrees, 90 is the same as the Shadow Hawk).

Mad Cat: See the effects of the general Clan tech adjustments before proceeding here. The general idea though is to not just repeat the infamous Victor nerfs here, and instead look for some other way (depending on where the weapon adjustments leave it). We already learned our lesson from the first time, right guys? Right? Right....



Bonus:
Loki: This mech is currently borderline instead of full-fledged crazy because of having only 65 tonner armor and adequate hitboxes (as opposed to amazing hitboxes). The Clan tech general adjustments would probably be all we need, and maybe we could even bump up the non-dominant pods for the Loki (i.e. non-Prime LT's and non-laser heads).

Edited by FupDup, 18 April 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Juodas Varnas, on 18 April 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Timberwolf, i'd say he needs to have his agility toned down, i mean it's a 75 tonner as tough and as armed as assaults that is more agile than medium mechs, .

Its not faster than a Orion if you packed a 375XL into it.

[Summon3r]

FupDup, on 18 April 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Whale: I'd try something like -5% ballistic cooldown on each of the Prime arms and Alt B side torsos. This is primarily meant to nerf the super-duper dakka 6 UAC/5 build, because you'd get a total of -20% ballistic cooldown. Nerfing this build would give PGI a better excuse to give a slight global buff to Clan UACs without fear of the Whale becoming even more powerful.

really? so what about the KGC then? it literally machine guns 6x ac2 and with no burst fire + positive quirks, it can run ppc's as opposed to being stuck with god awful erppc's..... i do not understand the thought process here at all of singling out the DWF and not mentioning the KGC... nothing personal at all fupdup

i dont think either need nerf's or buffs btw.

[Lightfoot]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

Since most of us agree that the DW, TW and SC at least need taken down a bit lets talk about the best way to do that and why. Also if you do not agree they need nerfed explain why. Thanks!

Disagree. They are just good mechs. The King Crab is better than the Dire Wolf due to it's durability. The Jagermech is equal to the Timber Wolf in elite load-outs and toughness. And there are Inner Sphere mechs near 75 tons that are better than the Timber Wolf in a duel. Storm Crow is very fragile for 55 tons, that is it's weakness.

I don't see any major issues. The mechs can't all have identical strengths which is what I think the nerf-herders all expect to happen. Each mech will have an individual strength and style of play. You find those abilities in Mechlab. If you want to beat a Mad Cat take a heavy or 80 ton assault mech that can duel it first of all and then learn to play it. A Mad Cat is a dangerous mech, but the Jagermech is equally dangerous with the right load-out. You can't seriously say otherwise. You would be nerf-hammering the two forever.

The Mad Cat will always be the most iconic and generally most popular mech because it so often represents Battle Tech and MechWarrior. This has always been so in MechWarrior games.

[Juodas Varnas]

CantHandletheTruth, on 18 April 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

Its not faster than a Orion if you packed a 375XL into it.

Yeah, but only an absolute moron puts an XL engine in The Orion (no offense to anyone who actually puts an XL engine in The Orion, but still, wtf guys?).
Because you know, IS XLs kill ya if you lose a side torso

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 18 April 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Timberwolf, i'd say he needs to have his agility toned down, i mean it's a 75 tonner as tough and as armed as assaults that is more agile than medium mechs, .

Thing is its only 75 tons and has a large engine. It supposed to be agile. The problem is Clans weapons and heat sinks. You can run 27 heatsinks with around a 50 alpha. If the Victor could ake the same fire power and run one of the biggest engines it would be just as bad. But its undergunned now compared to the TW with less hard points and less effective IS weapons.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 April 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Whale doesn't really need many nerfs at this point; it has a downside, it's a Whale. At least until JJs are fixed.

Timby and Crow both have excellent hitboxes and torso twist range.

That makes for two interesting solutions which do not involve blanket nerfing the Terribad robots.


Remove the 60% damage reduction for destroyed ST to CT damage transfer. Suddenly, they take half the damage to kill.


Alternatively, touch the torso yaw (twist) angle.
The BJ1x is a 45 ton Med that moves over 100 Kph with 8 hardpoints. It has a limited torso yaw as a result; 96 degrees max.

The DoomCrow is a 55 ton Med that moves over 100 Kph with up to 14 hardpoints. It has an incredible torso yaw of 156 degrees.

Timby does have the same 108 as the Orion, while the Stalker 4N has 72. Cutting torso yaw on the Timby makes a bigger difference, since the Crow has a rather small CT, while the Timby is larger. Cutting it makes it significantly more fragile.


Now, see how those aren't Blanket Nerfs to the Terribad robots? They specifically target God Tier robots, and make a significant difference, without outright gimping them.

[Juodas Varnas]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:

Thing is its only 70 tons and has a large engine. It supposed to be agile. The problem is Clans weapons and heat sinks. You can run 27 heatsinks with around a 50 alpha.

Nope. Mad Cat/Timberwolf is a 75 tonner. Summoner/Thor is 70 tons.
I'd say the problem is Clan XL engine, but nerfing them would **** over the underachievers pretty hard.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 18 April 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[War Dogz]

Nerfing the clan mechs isn't the answer. What is lacking for the IS are mechs in the 55 and 75 ton range that can perform. As for 65 tons the thunderbolt is equal to or better than the hellbringer except for not have ECM.

The IS has these 55 ton mech`s Griffin, Wolverine, shadow hawk, and kintaro which was designed prior to Clan invasion. However the king crab is about equal to the Direwolf due it release after the DW.

The remaining Clan mech that are seldom used in CW can not even challenge the underperforming IS mech in there tonnage bracket.

[Mcgral18]

Juodas Varnas, on 18 April 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Yeah, but only an absolute moron puts an XL engine in The Orion (no offense to anyone who actually puts an XL engine in The Orion, but still, wtf guys?).
Because you know, IS XLs kill ya if you lose a side torso

Still more ST durable than the Highlander, just like the Thunderbolts.

[FupDup]

Summon3r, on 18 April 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

really? so what about the KGC then? it literally machine guns 6x ac2 and with no burst fire + positive quirks, it can run ppc's as opposed to being stuck with god awful erppc's..... i do not understand the thought process here at all of singling out the DWF and not mentioning the KGC... nothing personal at all fupdup

i dont think either need nerf's or buffs btw.

Compared to the Whale, the Crab has the following drawbacks:

1. Must use IS guns instead of Clan guns, which tend to be heavier and bulkier. Clan lasers are better unless the IS mech is heavily quirked.

2. Depending on your build, you might need to use an IS XL, which is much worse than the Whale's Clan XL.

3. In general, a Whale can crank out more damage than most Crab builds (i.e. 6 UAC/5 or 2 Gauss + 2 ERLL + 6 ERML).


The Crab's ability to use different engines mostly comes into play as a result of puggie teams lacking coordination. In "ultracomp" land, the Whale is the king assault because they're smart enough to not leave theirs behind. The Crab is more pug-friendly because its team doesn't care as much about it.

And why did you bring up the 6 AC/2 Crab build? The AC/2 is trash. There are much more efficient DPS builds like 4 UAC/5 for the Crab.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Nope. Mad Cat/Timberwolf is a 75 tonner. Summoner/Thor is 70 tons.
I'd say the problem is Clan XL engine, but nerfing them would **** over the underachievers pretty hard.

Just a tyo had already been fixed.

[Koniving]

This isn't for any mech in particular but a mention of something I noticed.

Many quirks out there include "+10% turn rate low speed. +10% turn rate medium speed. +10% turn rate high speed."

Why so identical?

What if it went something like "+10% turn rate low speed. +5% turn rate medium speed. +0% turn rate high speed."?

The Shadowhawk, which was so great they nerfed / reduced its abilities, has a turn rate of "+5%" for low, medium and high speed. Why? Things tend to turn slower when going faster, not that we really ever notice it in MWO.
---------------------------
That said...

On the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf, the biggest things they have going for them are very large torso twist angles that depending on the pods you use also gets extended. High firepower, high acceleration, high speed, high agility, and high twist range? All the while they have Stalker/Firestarter-like hitboxes highly favoring max armor on the front with little risk of rear damage due to twist capabilities?

On both mechs I can go into a fight against 4 enemies, go in between them, and fight while going less than 54 kph and still come out with only yellow rear armor... with all three rear torsos set to 2 armor. Dig up a private match and try it -- of course you need to make it a point to keep enemies in front of you while they are trying to get behind you so it needs to be a serious game to call results on.

I have a twist range of 90 on the Timber Wolf though between the unlocks (10% for basic, so 99 degrees and 20% for elites so 108 degrees) and the +10 twist range (listed as a flat 10 degree increase, so 100+10% = 110 degrees twist for basic and 100+20% = 120 degrees for elites)... Meanwhile the highly versatile Shadowhawk is identical, but often without the increase to twist range (so 99 basics, 108 elites).

Now the Stormcrow's twist range is 130 degrees stock. +10% basics is 143 degrees and +20% elites is 156 degrees. Nothing extends this as far as the omnipods, but there are stackable increases to get +20% faster torso twist and and up to 30% faster arm movement. I should point out that stacks additively with the percentage increase of Arm Reflex for an additional +15% basics or +30% elites (so a total possible increase of +60% faster arm movement). As if they aren't already insanely fast at stock! While the Timber Wolf's wide back will take some damage even if enemies can't focus on it during genuine gameplay, a Stormcrow's back is almost impossible to hit because any pilot worth their salt will never reveal it with twist ranges and speed of that incredible versatility.

I might add just for comparison: A twist of 90 degrees or higher in tabletop requires a mech to have the extended torso twist quirk (regular twist gives 1 hex rotation, extended gives 2 hexes, so to even reach the possibility of hitting a target 90 degrees to your left or right with twisting you need extended torso twist). The Stormcrow does not have this in TT, yet in MWO it has 156 degrees after elites? Why so high?

Just food for thought. The thing that both of these mechs truly have going for them is hitboxes with rear sections that almost don't exist.

Edited by Koniving, 18 April 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Weird. I have no problems dueling the Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, or Storm Crow. I actually hope to duel the Dire Wolf because it is so squishy unless you stand in front of it. Dire Wolf is just helpless if you see it coming.

Timber Wolf is a nice challenge. Shoot out one side and it's a pup though.

Strom Crow has no damage resistance. Just shoot first and you win usually.

You nerf-needers really just need to up your game and be MechWarriors.

Oh yeah, I don't usually pilot any of these three mechs. I think they are generally weaker than other mechs available if you know what you are doing. They are just popular so they have creased a lot of azzes.

Seriously, they are. The Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf, Summoner, and Storm Crow are likely the top four most popular Clan mechs, if you exclude the Shadow Cat and Kodiak. If you get killed by a Clan mech it was likely one of those three since the Summoner is not actually in MWO. We just have a placeholder for it.

Edited by Lightfoot, 18 April 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[InRev]

FupDup, on 18 April 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

And why did you bring up the 6 AC/2 Crab build? The AC/2 is trash. There are much more efficient DPS builds like 4 UAC/5 for the Crab.

Inorite? It's like saying "WHAT ABOUT THE CRAB IT CAN MOUNT 4 LRM15S!~!!~!!"

Lightfoot, on 18 April 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

The Jagermech is equal to the Timber Wolf in elite load-outs and toughness. And there are Inner Sphere mechs near 75 tons that are better than the Timber Wolf in a duel. Storm Crow is very fragile for 55 tons, that is it's weakness.

Also, this post is so incredibly wrong, I genuinely wonder if we are playing the same game.

The Jagermech is ridiculously fragile. It almost always uses IS XLs and it is incredibly easy to ST kill. Meanwhile, the Timby is notoriously durable due to Clan XL and favorable torso hitboxes. Jager and Timby aren't even close to being in the same league for durability.

Also, Timby laser-vomit is the best heavy loadout currently in the game. Jager dual gauss is good, but laser vomit trumps it still. So, no, not even comparable. And that is not even talking mobility yet.

The only IS heavy that could conceivably beat a Timby in a 1v1 duel (lol btw, this is a team game) might be a Thunderwub, but that is so situational (as in the Timby pilot would have to be terrible in order to allow the Thud to close in on it in a 1v1 situation) it doesn't even merit discussion.

Additionally, the Doomcrow is the antithesis of "very fragile for 55 tons". In fact, it's body hitboxes are perfect and allow a competent player to spread damage all over the place. Good luck CT killing it if the pilot isn't a moron. Its only glass jaw is its legs (seriously people, LEG THEM) but I would gladly take that over basically any IS 55 tonner durability.

Finally, putting the Atlas anywhere near this discussion is a joke.

So yeah, that post is MWO bizarro world. I really just do not get where people get their information.

[CantHandletheTruth]

Juodas Varnas, on 18 April 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Yeah, but only an absolute moron puts an XL engine in The Orion (no offense to anyone who actually puts an XL engine in The Orion, but still, wtf guys?).
Because you know, IS XLs kill ya if you lose a side torso

That is Timberwofl's issue?

[CantHandletheTruth]

Grisbane, on 18 April 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

the stormcrowe was originally a missile based chassis, think it should be returned to that, removing some of the energy hardpoints, forcing you to take missiles or deny firepower on the mech..

Ummm the prime is all laser all the time.