203 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

I say leave em all alone.

PuG play can never be balanced to people's unreasonable expectations. It's reasonably balanced experience overall...so why fuss over the occasional match were it's skewed a bit one way or the other...sack up and shoot back, that's the best and only solution.

CW doesn't need balanced mechs, what we need is asymmetric balancing. Create faction specific asymmetry in the various features of CW. Asymmetry can be in team size, tonnage, respawn timer, respawns, etc...all or any number of the above as required. Asymmetry in victory conditions, asymmetry in objectives, etc, etc. Asymmetry in operating costs/rewards.

There are so many intuitive and intelligent ways to create balance in an overall system/game model when their is inbalance between units taking part in the game model.

[Lightfoot]

InRev, on 18 April 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

Also, this post is so incredibly wrong, I genuinely wonder if we are playing the same game.

The Jagermech is ridiculously fragile. It almost always uses IS XLs and it is incredibly easy to ST kill. Meanwhile, the Timby is notoriously durable due to Clan XL and favorable torso hitboxes. Jager and Timby aren't even close to being in the same league for durability.

Also, Timby laser-vomit is the best heavy loadout currently in the game. Jager dual gauss is good, but laser vomit trumps it still. So, no, not even comparable. And that is not even talking mobility yet.

The only IS heavy that could conceivably beat a Timby in a 1v1 duel (lol btw, this is a team game) might be a Thunderwub, but that is so situational (as in the Timby pilot would have to be terrible in order to allow the Thud to close in on it in a 1v1 situation) it doesn't even merit discussion.

Additionally, the Doomcrow is the antithesis of "very fragile for 55 tons". In fact, it's body hitboxes are perfect and allow a competent player to spread damage all over the place. Good luck CT killing it if the pilot isn't a moron. Its only glass jaw is its legs (seriously people, LEG THEM) but I would gladly take that over basically any IS 55 tonner durability.

Finally, putting the Atlas anywhere near this discussion is a joke.

So yeah, that post is MWO bizarro world. I really just do not get where people get their information.

I can't help it if you (and others apparently) haven't learned how to make a tough Jagermech that carries fire-power similar to a Mad Cat's. Keep trying though, Mechlab is a very under-employed Skill in MWO, so it pays great dividends to the few who really understand it. Maybe something like this?

JM6-DD

or JM6-DD

You're pulling my leg if you say that can't go toe to toe with a Mad Cat.

The Jagermech is one of the best and most used mechs in the game. Say otherwise and tell me why everyone is using it. Not saying nerf it, but it's roughly as good as a Mad Cat if slower and only 65 tons.

I guess I am old school, the one that teaches it's not the mech or weapon, but the pilot that wins the match. If there is a Bug or some weakness, that should be fixed, but otherwise, you fix the problem by figuring out how to beat it.

MWO has spoiled it's players and the gameplay with the Request-A-Nerf format. That's where the "Bizarro" gameplay in MWO's current arcade robot laser-brawl comes from. True MechWarrior gameplay is multi-range and multi-tactical and always able to surprise you with the unexpected. That is it's greatest strength and greatest re-playability feature.

Edited by Lightfoot, 18 April 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

PuG play can never be balanced to people's unreasonable expectations. It's reasonably balanced experience overall...so why fuss over the occasional match were it's skewed a bit one way or the other...sack up and shoot back, that's the best and only solution.

I think your missing why people want changes. The comp players and higher Elo players all bring the best mechs. So on the higher end of the game every one is running the same mechs. People would like for more mechs to be viable than just a few.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 April 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

I think your missing why people want changes. The comp players and higher Elo players all bring the best mechs. So on the higher end of the game every one is running the same mechs. People would like for more mechs to be viable than just a few.

So by nerfing the 3 out of 13 clan mechs that don't actually suck you are going to accomplish this?

People will just run the top three IS chassis.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

So by nerfing the 3 out of 13 clan mechs that don't actually suck you are going to accomplish this?

People will just run the top three IS chassis.

What you want is balance. Then you could run the TW, Orian, Grasshopper, Victor, Awesome etc. And you can do so with a huge difference between the best and worst of them. Then you get a lot more varation in what people are running at the upper end of the game.

[Pjwned]

The 20% speed penalty on side torso loss should have gone through.

There, fixed.

[CantHandletheTruth]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

What you want is balance. Then you could run the TW, Orian, Grasshopper, Victor, Awesome etc. And you can do so with a huge difference between the best and worst of them. Then you get a lot more varation in what people are running at the upper end of the game.

I can, and do, I tear ass with a pair of grasshoppers, Orion and Vicotr I don't own, no point with the Vic until JJs don't suck, and Orion was DOA at launch, everyone knew that.

Awesome isn't as bad as its made out to be, but you can't play pokeaboo with it, that is failing.

I note you leave out Phract, and Thud, Thuds eat Timbers for lunch.

Edited by CantHandletheTruth, 18 April 2015 - 11:00 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Pjwned, on 18 April 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

The 20% speed penalty on side torso loss should have gone through.

There, fixed.

Bam, blanket nerf the Terribad Clams.

Again.

For the third time.


Targeted nerfs, not Blanket Nerfs.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I can, and do, I tear ass with a pair of grasshoppers, Orion and Vicotr I don't own, no point with the Vic until JJs don't suck, and Orion was DOA at launch, everyone knew that.

Awesome isn't as bad as its made out to be, but you can't play pokeaboo with it, that is failing.

I note you leave out Phract, and Thud, Thuds eat Timbers for lunch.

Being able to have some good games in pretty much any mech is not balance. I left out Thunderbolts and Cataphracts because I stoped and added etc. They do not change anything. A couple of thunderbolts with huge quirks are not bad and the grasshopper is not bad and the Victor is not bad. But they are still a ways from the TW. And Thunderbolts do not eat Timbers for lunch. If they did then comp teams would all be running Thunderbolts instead of Timberwolves. Although the Thunderbolt in certain situations is probably the closest to the TW at the moment.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 April 2015 - 11:11 AM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 April 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Being able to have some good games in pretty much any mech is not balance. I left out Thunderbolts and Cataphracts because I stoped and added etc. They do not change anything. A couple of thunderbolts with huge quirks are not bad and the grasshopper is not bad and the Victor is not bad. But they are still a ways from the TW. And Thunderbolts do not eat Timbers for lunch. If they did then comp teams would all be running Thunderbolts instead of Timberwolves. Although the Thunderbolt in certain situations is probably the closest to the TW at the moment.

Made up comp rules don't apply to the game at large, its JUST the comp set, and so few ACTUALLY PLAY in leagues that game balance descisions SHOULD NOT be made over them.

...and yes, Thuds DO eat timbers for lunch I catch a Timber close there is nothing he can do to that will save his mech.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Made up comp rules don't apply to the game at large, its JUST the comp set, and so few ACTUALLY PLAY in leagues that game balance descisions SHOULD NOT be made over them.

Made up comp rules? Its the same in group play at the higher end.

Quote

...and yes, Thuds DO eat timbers for lunch I catch a Timber close there is nothing he can do to that will save his mech.

Depends on what build the TW is running.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 April 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Torgun]

CantHandletheTruth, on 18 April 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

...and yes, Thuds DO eat timbers for lunch I catch a Timber close there is nothing he can do to that will save his mech.

Let's see what the SRMCat thinks about that comment

[CantHandletheTruth]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Let's see what the SRMCat thinks about that comment

The same two cycles a laser vomit cat gets. Its literally that fast.

[Torgun]

CantHandletheTruth, on 18 April 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

The same two cycles a laser vomit cat gets. Its literally that fast.

But you have a huge CT though and will be outmaneuvered with an STD engine or be a lot more fragile with an XL. So yeah I think laughing cat has a good reason to laugh.

[Mcgral18]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

But you have a huge CT though and will be outmaneuvered with an STD engine or be a lot more fragile with an XL. So yeah I think laughing cat has a good reason to laugh.

Outmanoeuvred when moving 83? Not likely.

It's as durable as a 90 ton Robot, +20 to each ST.


The 5SS is the better brawler, while still being effective to 500M. The Timby can be a better brawler, or a better mid range mech, but not both.

6 SPLs 4SRM6+A is the better brawler, but is completely decimated past 300M. The typical laservomit will lose in a brawl with the heat efficient 5SS.


The Timby is actually more fragile, ST wise. If you take missiles, your STs are not small.

[Torgun]

Mcgral18, on 18 April 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

Outmanoeuvred when moving 83? Not likely.

It's as durable as a 90 ton Robot, +20 to each ST.


The 5SS is the better brawler, while still being effective to 500M. The Timby can be a better brawler, or a better mid range mech, but not both.

6 SPLs 4SRM6+A is the better brawler, but is completely decimated past 300M. The typical laservomit will lose in a brawl with the heat efficient 5SS.


The Timby is actually more fragile, ST wise. If you take missiles, your STs are not small.

If we're talking 5SS smurfy says it gets +15 STs. How would that make it as durable as a 90t mech, since it has way less armor and a big CT that is easy to hit especially up close?

I'd definitely not go with SPL since the ERML would give me way more range and be useful in much more situations. I'd most certainly bet on that TW build to take out an 5SS whether close or at range. And the SRM racks don't give the TW the huge ears AFAIK, it's quite small targets compared to TW with LRMs,

[CantHandletheTruth]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

But you have a huge CT though and will be outmaneuvered with an STD engine or be a lot more fragile with an XL. So yeah I think laughing cat has a good reason to laugh.

.....with a 290 its hardly slow, and has more ST structure than a warhawk.

Not to mention focused damage.

[Kuritaclan]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

If we're talking 5SS smurfy says it gets +15 STs. How would that make it as durable as a 90t mech, since it has way less armor and a big CT that is easy to hit especially up close?

I'd definitely not go with SPL since the ERML would give me way more range and be useful in much more situations. I'd most certainly bet on that TW build to take out an 5SS whether close or at range. And the SRM racks don't give the TW the huge ears AFAIK, it's quite small targets compared to TW with LRMs,

A SRMA TBR with ErML is a pretty hot build. - For range trade it is underequiped compared to a full vmit loadout and for close range brawl it is just a fulltime shutdown candidate - not say'in that it is a bad build, but it does not be better than a TDR 5SS with Medium Wub, never.

[Torgun]

CantHandletheTruth, on 18 April 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

.....with a 290 its hardly slow, and has more ST structure than a warhawk.

Not to mention focused damage.

The big CT is a major downfall for the mech, up close in a brawl it's a huge target.

Kuritaclan, on 18 April 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

A SRMA TBR with ErML is a pretty hot build. - For range trade it is underequiped compared to a full vmit loadout and for close range brawl it is just a fulltime shutdown candidate - not say'in that it is a bad build, but it does not be better than a TDR 5SS with Medium Wub, never.

Up close you'd of course use mainly the SRMs and yes unless you have problems aiming, hitting the CT of a 5SS should not be an issue.

[XX Sulla XX]

There are a lot of ways to build a TW. And several of them work well at short mid range like the Thunderbolt SS. For example.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b9bb6949db650ee

or

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...195b7ac333965d9

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 18 April 2015 - 12:15 PM.