140 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

xMADCATTERx, on 14 December 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

Clan mechs are basically factory limited designs. They have their omni pods and that's it. Clan warriors are some times tossed into different machines on the fly to fit a situation and they all have to be fairly standard to fulfill that versatile role.

They could of course ignore this altogether like most other lore.

Clan Mechs = Basic MWO custom features.
IS = advanced mechanics.

The Clan feature people should be asking for is bidding. We have tonnage. Lets pool the wasted tonnage left over for the team into scouting features, + Turret HP, C-Bill/GXP bonuses etc. In regard to this, solo kills for Clan players should be VERY high. Not just C-Bills, but more experience.

I actually never liked C-Bills for Clan. Influence or Notoriety made more sense than a form of currency. Advancing in respect with the Clans gave you access to better equipment and gear. Just another aspect of the game thrown together quick and easy.

you seem to be saying Clan & IS, when you should be saying OmniMech & BattleMech,
remember both Sides have both, and this topic is about Problems with the OmniMech System,
Problems that BattleMechs dont have, which is why BattleMechs are easier to Balance to each other,

Bidding could be fun, But thats not what this Topic is about,
this Topic is about Balancing OmniMechs Construction to BattleMech Construction,

[Mechteric]

I think they should be able to toggle on/off ES and FF, mainly because there are some chassis that are "lesser" clan mechs because they cannot.

But I'm really torn on the jump jets, but only because the TimberWolf was pretty OP back when they could mount jets anywhere. Perhaps if they made it so the jump jets could be removed, but then only placed back in their original spaces rather than anywhere.

Though if jump jets weren't so bland and useful in combat for more than just gently hovering over a tiny rock, then perhaps you wouldn't ever want to trade in the jets in the first place!


MASC probably also should be removable, but also made good for the same reasons as jump jet, so they aren't just a waste of tonnage and space on those mechs that have them.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 14 December 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Isnt that the point of the IIC mechs? To break the game's build limitations?

Then again, given how little this game listens to lore in any case, why are clan mechs gimped for lore reasons??

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 14 December 2015 - 05:06 PM.

[Nightmare1]

I think the Clan chassis should be fully unlocked like in MW4. Locking them down like this is a grievous affront to MechWarrior and ruins the fun of building your Mechs. Since the IIC Mechs are the only Clan Mechs that are fully customizable, those will be the only ones I will ever be purchasing.

I say, let Clan Mechs choose whether to equip Endo or not. Let them choose whether to equip Ferro or not. Let them choose their Engine Type. Let them choose their Engine Rating. Unlock the DHS and JJs on their chassis. Quit selling half-Mechs!

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Nightmare1, on 14 December 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

I think the Clan chassis should be fully unlocked like in MW4. Locking them down like this is a grievous affront to MechWarrior and ruins the fun of building your Mechs. Since the IIC Mechs are the only Clan Mechs that are fully customizable, those will be the only ones I will ever be purchasing.

I say, let Clan Mechs choose whether to equip Endo or not. Let them choose whether to equip Ferro or not. Let them choose their Engine Type. Let them choose their Engine Rating. Unlock the DHS and JJs on their chassis. Quit selling half-Mechs!

Hence why the IIC mechs are gonna break the game roflmao. The mechs that are second line, walking coffins in lore will be customizably better than the front line mechs lol

[Naduk]

They should stay locked
The real problem is that FF is so much worse than endo
Nobody ever says "oh sweet this Mech has ferro"
No they say "damn I have to pay to ferro to endo tax on this Mech"

Majority of the clan argument disappears if the two upgrades are equal
And anything that remains is squashed because you must pay for the power to pick your hard points
If you don't want that ability then drive a battle Mech instead of an omni

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 December 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

you seem to be saying Clan & IS, when you should be saying OmniMech & BattleMech,
remember both Sides have both, and this topic is about Problems with the OmniMech System,
Problems that BattleMechs dont have, which is why BattleMechs are easier to Balance to each other,

Bidding could be fun, But thats not what this Topic is about,
this Topic is about Balancing OmniMechs Construction to BattleMech Construction,

Thing is, I could see IS OMNI mechs being tweaked around just like normal Battlemechs as the pilot will probably be in it until one of them is destroyed. I could see the Techs ripping to pieces a new assigned IS Omni just to see how it ticks....so they can make it better in some way for that particular machine.

Messing around with machines was never a clan thing. There were more than likely always replacements on hand and the stories of a cut off from supply Clan unit, using tic tacs and duct tape to muck around with their machines is in the very low percentiles.

You are right though. In regard to the game, all omni mechs should be treated the same, though I'm pretty sure IS Omni didn't have the benefit of Clan XL, so even with that, very different and closer to Battlemechs than Omni mechs.

[Nightmare1]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 December 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Hence why the IIC mechs are gonna break the game roflmao. The mechs that are second line, walking coffins in lore will be customizably better than the front line mechs lol

I know, and it makes me kind of mad. The Omnis, supposedly the most customizable Mechs in existence, wind up relatively uncustomizable while the supposedly "inferior" Mechs wind up being more versatile! For people like me, who enjoy building the Mech as much as piloting it, this is rather insufferable. It's also frustrating for folks like me who would like MWO to at least follow the most basic of MechWarrior rules.

And when I say "MechWarrior," I do mean "MechWarrior." I don't mean the BT board game.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Naduk, on 14 December 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

They should stay locked
The real problem is that FF is so much worse than endo
Nobody ever says "oh sweet this Mech has ferro"
No they say "damn I have to pay to ferro to endo tax on this Mech"

Majority of the clan argument disappears if the two upgrades are equal
And anything that remains is squashed because you must pay for the power to pick your hard points
If you don't want that ability then drive a battle Mech instead of an omni

so whats the argument for the IICs? Theyll have both. And theyre supposed to be WORSE not better in lore.

When it will be the opposite in this game

Quote

The Hunchback IIC is a Clan-tech refit of the venerable Hunchback. Its meager six tons of armor, coupled with paltry ammunition and lack of long-range weapons, led Inner Sphere observers to conclude that this 'Mech was a last-ditch effort for failed warriors to die with glory. In truth, the assignment of a Hunchback IIC was essentially a death sentence. Warriors given this machine were not expected to survive their next battle.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 14 December 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Naduk, on 14 December 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

They should stay locked
The real problem is that FF is so much worse than endo
Nobody ever says "oh sweet this Mech has ferro"
No they say "damn I have to pay to ferro to endo tax on this Mech"

Majority of the clan argument disappears if the two upgrades are equal
And anything that remains is squashed because you must pay for the power to pick your hard points
If you don't want that ability then drive a battle Mech instead of an omn

so what about the NVA?
here is a OmniMech that has NO Upgrades, also its Prime Variant has 12 Energy,
there it no reason not to Take less than 12 Energy because you dont have to Tonnage,
as Energy is the Lightest of Weapon Type you take all Energy(but only SL/ML),

Q1) but it has Variants with Ballistics and Missiles, Why not Equip them?
A1) Tonnage means no Large Anything or Anything with Ammo,
-
Q2) well Why should we worry about those wail we have 12Energy Hard Points,
A2) well 12 Energy is good, but 12E + Hot Clan Weapons = Lots of Controlled Fire and Waiting,
-
Q3) Ok so What would Endo Add Anyway? Couldnt be Much?
A3) only about +2.5Tons, but thats 2-3 More DHS, or Ammo Ect,

Edit-
If their is an Imbalance In construction than that May Need to Change for Balance,
OmniMechs will still have Locked Engines and DHS, but they will have abit more Freedom,
Think on IS OmniMechs and tell me that they will be better than IS BattleMechs?

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 December 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[Chuck Jager]

In manufacturing you save a lot of weight by manufacturing locked componentry. So this makes sense to me (less than 10s the dweebs will spout the various exceptions missing the point).

I could care less about lore being the guidelines. I think of it more like mythology and religion. It may have some really good points to guide your choices, but do not take it literally or force it on others. FYI I got MW2 from a bargain bin at WalMart.

[MauttyKoray]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 April 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

=OK First The Topic=
i know there are allot of Topics about Endo for Clans,
This is not Just a Endo for Clan Topic, but an Omni-Topic,
remember the InnerSphere will eventually get Omni-mechs,
so this Topic also applies to Both IS as well as Clans,


=First Question=
=Should Omni-Mechs be able to Upgrade to Endo?=
in this case all mechs with out Endo will get it and in so lose 7 Internal Slots,
all mechs with Ferro could be allowed to switch Ferro for Endo Trading up,
-
=Mechs with Endo that will not Change=
Lights(MLX)(KFX)(ACH)(ADR), Mediums(IFR)(SHC)(SCR), Heavies(EBJ)(TBR),
so to recap the SCR/TBR will not in Any Way be buffed by this change!
-
=Mechs without Endo that would Gain Tonnage & locked points=
NVA+2.5= 1HD(-) 1ST(1less DHS in ST) 2Arms (1less DHS in Arms)
HBR+3= 1CT(-) 3ST(no AC20 ST)
DWF+5= 1R(1less DHS) 3ST(no AC20/Gauss in ST)
these Points can be Changed as per Balance
-
=Current Mechs that have Ferro and could switch Ferro to Endo=
MDD(8.5Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1Ton) +Endo(+3tons)= +2Tons After Switch,
SMN(9.5Tons of Armor)=-Ferro(-1.25Ton) +Endo(+3.5tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
GAR(11Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.5Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.5Tons After Switch,
WHK(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
EXE(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4.25tons)= +2.50Tons After Switch,
the 2 Extra Tons Can & Will be Useful for All Ammo Dependent Mech Builds


=Second Question=
=Should Omni-Mechs be able to Change their Engine Type?=
this ONLY means that you could change your Omni-Mechs Engine Type,
so if you have an XL-Engine you can change it to STD-Engine. but Why?
(note this is Engine Type(XL to STD) not Engine Rating(250XL to 300XL),
-
well all(to my knowledge) Clan Omni-Mechs have XLs so no Clan Change,
but most Early IS Omni-Mechs also have IS-XL-Engines, Hence the Problem,
so why not allow these Omni-Mechs to change their engine type from XL to STD?
again this change would only affect IS-Omnis as Clan-Omnis only have XLs,
-
-Possible Up in Coming IS-Omni-Mechs-
Raptor(25Ton(3052)(11.5FreeTons)(175XL(118kph)
Owens(35Ton(3056)(10.5FreeTons)(280XL(129kph)
Strider(40Ton(3057)(14FreeTons)(240STD(97kph)
BlackHawk-KU(60Ton(3055)(17FreeTons)(300XL(86kph)
Avatar(70Ton(3056)(37FreeTons)(280XL(64kph)
Sunder(90Ton(3056)(36FreeTons)(360XL(64kph)
-
(FupDup was Right Not an Omni-Mech misread Sarna)
Bushwacker(55Ton(3053)(25.5FreeTons)(275XL(86kph)



i would like hear peoples thoughts,
Are you For these Changes for Omni-Mechs?
Are you Against these Changes for Omni-Mechs?
Explain How you Feel, and please Leave Lore out of it,
-
as most MechWarrior games Lore Construction Rules dont apply,
Remember this isnt TT this is MechWarrior, and Customization is Key,
in Lore Battle-Mechs where much more restrictive than Omni-Mechs,
and please remember IS Battle-Mechs do have Hard-point inflation,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,


Edit- Reworked Topic abit,
Edit2- Removed Bushwacker,
Edit3- Added other IS Omnis
Edit4- Possible Endo Locations,
Edit5- Full Topic Rework,
Edit6- Full Topic Rework2,

No. I stand by the lock on these.

Just as the Clan Battlemechs will get the options to swap these items, IS Omnimechs will have them locked (including engine size). Some see this as making mechs sub-optimal, or bad, or useless, however I've taken practically any mech people consider bad and done something with it, usually at least average or better. That doesn't show the mech is bad but that the game is still not yet balanced, even more easily displayed by the fact that META builds (which cannot be entirely rid of) are significantly more effective than any other build, not just slightly. A META build in MWO shouldn't be THE definitive build of a mech, just one that can squeeze out that slight bit of extra power.

So no, I reiterate, I believe the locked or unlocked features of mechs should stay as they are to be used as a balance mechanic for the Omnipod system. It already works fairly well and with further improvements on overall game balance, it should matter less about the mech and more about the player.

The only real topic I think needs to be taken into consideration are the IS Omnis and their locked engine. The reason Clan Omnis haven't had much issue is the Clan XL. Meanwhile the IS Omnis being locked to IS XLs could provide serious gameplay issues, possibly needing the ability to at least switch to the Light Fusion Engine which would provide an option to reduce crit usage and prevent side torso deaths but at the cost of weight (LFE are heavier than XLs but lighter than STDs, sort of a compromise.) and thus bring a new mechanic into play for the IS Omnis as a mirror for Clan XLs and their penalty instead of death trade off when losing a ST.

The only other balance I can think of is possibly add the penalty for losing a ST to LFEs in general since they would technically function similar to a Clan XL at that point.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 14 December 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Wouldn't mind endo/ff for the underperformers, but HBR is not an underperformer. It's already picked before the EBJ most of the time even without endo/ff... and neither is the DWF, but most builds I think are space limited anyways so the impact is probably a bit smaller there... but the HBR with endo/ff would be the perfect mech.

65 tons, optimal engine ratiing clan XL, ECM, high mounts for both E and B.

[Lykaon]

From a strictly background fluff reason,No omnimechs have always had fixed crit slots for the basic chassis construction materiels.

So Ferro Fibrous,Endo Steel, XL engine,And any fixed Double Heatsinks.

However also from a strictly background fluff reason Jumpjets should not be locked and jumpjets should be available to all omnimechs as an option.

[Adamski]

Yep, Clan mechs technically have locked upgrades, and if they want to upgrade something like the Summoner to Endo Steel, that's a whole new chassis, called the Grand Summoner / Thor II.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thor_II

The Clan Omni-Mechs are highly customizable, in that Clan techs could swap out Omni pods in the time it took the dropship to get from the Jumpship to the drop zone.

Battlemechs took months of time at a factory refit facility to change out weapons or upgrade structure.

But for balance reasons within MWO, I think a fair system would be:
Battlemechs: can swap engines, hardpoints locked, upgrades available
Omnimechs: locked engines, hardpoints swappable, upgrades available

Also, allow all Omni mechs to remove equipment like jumpjets / flamers / masc / cap.

Give Omni pods & IS body parts Jump Jet hardpoints, combined with the overall mech Jump Jet cap.
Also, make it so that Clan Upgrades are locked to using specific critical slots. ie: Endo takes 4 legs, 2 ST, 1 CT & Ferro takes 2 Arm, 4 ST, 1 head

The only mech that would still be slightly underperformers would be IFR, KFX, GAR.
The only mechs that would possibly become OP would be HBR & DWF & WHK.
The mechs that would be fixed would be: NVA, EXE, MLX, SMN, SHC, ACH, GAR, MDD

Edited by Adamski, 15 December 2015 - 05:01 AM.

[Adamski]

Also, once all the clan Omni & Battlemechs are playing with the same tools, then it becomes easier to change over/underperforming equipment, without worrying about how it will impact individual viable builds.

[Lugh]

One Medic Army, on 18 April 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

I'd be fine with the endo thing. Probably help the clan underperformers.

Engine swapping from STD to XL I doubt is needed.

Also to improve the bad clan mechs, they should be able to swap from ferro to endo, using the same crit slots taken up.

[edit] Or, as Fup said above, balance Endo vs Standard internals. And probably balance Ferro vs Endo while we're at it.

(And I may sound insane here, but balance DHS vs SHS by making first 10 of either be 20 dissipation, and the rest at 1ton/3(2)cries/1.4 or 1/1/1? depending on installed type?)

You have no idea how awesome a STD engine Dire wolf would be do you... With Endo steel and a STD 360 moving 68kph or so? That would be better than the Bees Knees.

[Karl Streiger]

Lugh, on 15 December 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

You have no idea how awesome a STD engine Dire wolf would be do you... With Endo steel and a STD 360 moving 68kph or so? That would be better than the Bees Knees.

why should you do this? Why to run a standard engine on a Clan Mech? That is like having 18 slots remaining and not using endo steel for IS

Oh wait I've killed a DireWolf lately by 2 destroyed side torsos.... of course with a STD he would have lived 3sec longer to deal some damage with its remaining 2 lasers!!!

Adamski, on 15 December 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

The only mech that would still be slightly underperformers would be IFR, KFX, GAR.
The only mechs that would possibly become OP would be HBR & DWF & WHK.
The mechs that would be fixed would be: NVA, EXE, MLX, SMN, SHC, ACH, GAR, MDD

the GAR; IRF can be fixed if it is allowed to swap the fixed heat sinks
the KFX... well its hardly possible to make the KFX better without changing the engine and/or add hard point inflation

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Lugh]

Karl Streiger, on 15 December 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

why should you do this? Why to run a standard engine on a Clan Mech? That is like having 18 slots remaining and not using endo steel for IS

Oh wait I've killed a DireWolf lately by 2 destroyed side torsos.... of course with a STD he would have lived 3sec longer to deal some damage with its remaining 2 lasers!!!



the GAR; IRF can be fixed if it is allowed to swap the fixed heat sinks
the KFX... well its hardly possible to make the KFX better without changing the engine and/or add hard point inflation

When you are talking about duels amongst equals 3 seconds and 2 lasers is the difference between a winner and a loser...Just ask all the Atlas pilots that are now living it up with the STD engine brawler builds...

[Karl Streiger]

Lugh, on 15 December 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

When you are talking about duels amongst equals 3 seconds and 2 lasers is the difference between a winner and a loser...Just ask all the Atlas pilots that are now living it up with the STD engine brawler builds...

The Atlas with XL and the Dire Wolf with XL are two different pairs of shoes.
The Atlas doesn't use a STD because it can deal so much damage just as a stick without arms. he runs std to deal damage even when half the mech is gone.
When i could run a IS Light or a Clan XL on an Atlas i would not think twice, its a no brainer

edit:
ok the DWF W with 3 ER-Large Laser a 400 STD and 19 DHS - even when your side torsos are destroyed you have 100% or your fire power...
of course it is a stupid build and a 400XL dire wolf would have killed you faster

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2015 - 06:52 AM.