140 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 April 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

They follow the rules. I don't have Phased cannons or Light Sabers. They follow the construction rules set up by FASA and PGI.

Neverwinter is billed as a D&D game using 4th edition rules. But I've never been in a D&D game where my character has thousands of HP!

Tell me which engines you can mount in TT?

Compare the Spider to the Cute Fox, if you will.


Then tell me what you can mount in MWO.

[Alex Morgaine]

Maybe allow endo/ff equipping (not dequipping if it came stock), but engines can only be upped from stock as per formula, not lowered. The holy trinity won't be buffed as much, and nascar needs could be met with lighter mechs.
Artemis is still optional.

[Mcgral18]

Frosty Brand, on 27 April 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Maybe allow endo/ff equipping (not dequipping if it came stock), but engines can only be upped from stock as per formula, not lowered. The holy trinity won't be buffed as much, and nascar needs could be met with lighter mechs.
Artemis is still optional.

Mr Gargles and Ice Fridge not helped

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 27 April 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

Tell me which engines you can mount in TT?

Compare the Spider to the Cute Fox, if you will.


Then tell me what you can mount in MWO.

On TT I could mount any engine that gave me a full movement point. So My Zeus could not have a 375 engine in it. That isn't new to MW titles though and works cause movement points are only a TT requirement.

Also on TT depending if you played on "my Table" or a FanPro event your Spider and Kit Fox had to fit the rules I set up being the GM. If I was acting as a FanPro Commando both had to be TRO Complaint.

[Whatzituyah]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 April 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

On TT I could mount any engine that gave me a full movement point. So My Zeus could not have a 375 engine in it. That isn't new to MW titles though and works cause movement points are only a TT requirement.

Also on TT depending if you played on "my Table" or a FanPro event your Spider and Kit Fox had to fit the rules I set up being the GM. If I was acting as a FanPro Commando both had to be TRO Complaint.

This same argument though can go for the clan mechs in Mechwarrior 2 through 4 they are also fully customizable if I recall correctly. But I don't think those tried to balance them at all.

Edited by Whatzituyah, 27 April 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Ragtag soldier]

Whatzituyah, on 27 April 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

This same argument though can go for the clan mechs in Mechwarrior 2 through 4 they are also fully customizable if I recall correctly. But I don't think those tried to balance them at all.

they're not, they still have limited hardpoints and restrictions on ECM and some other stuff. but omnimechs had omni hardpoints that could hold anything that'd fit.

[Chuanhao]

Where then do we draw the line in terms of changing TT construction rules ?

There are two kinds of players.

Lore players enjoy piloting the mechs they loved from TT, in accordance with all the limitations defined in TT. This faction I feel, might just needs the less-viable mechs to be made more viable through quirks, at least for non-CW play, not ultra-competitive at the expense of lore.

Competitive players will always choose the most powerful “meta” mech. There will always be a flavor of the season. There are also the perennials (Holy Trinity). Yes we saw many play metas during CW. But of course. This is hard core mode. This camp might want to change TT construction rules so that more mechs have a powerful equivalent meta. But to what extent?

The flexibility of Omnipods is balanced by the fixed engine / HS / ES and FF. There have been many calls to allow flexibility in one or all of the four. This would make omnis OP compared to non-omnis. No one will need to play non-omnis. Take the Warhawk. Allow for a change from FF to ES, a change in the positions of the DHS, and suddenly you have a monster of a mech. Its currently profile of a “useless” left Torso and less than useful FF, gives it inherent weaknesses that players can then work around to make the mech work in its direct fire-support role. Not the brawler that it was never meant to be (at least for Prime)

So in the interest of the wider community, let competitive players stick to their meta mechs in hard core game modes / events. For lore lovers, let’s have a certain amount of sensible quirks, small improvements to attempt to level the playing field for less-viable mechs.

[Mcgral18]

Chuanhao, on 28 April 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Where then do we draw the line in terms of changing TT construction rules ?

There are two kinds of players.

Lore players enjoy piloting the mechs they loved from TT, in accordance with all the limitations defined in TT. This faction I feel, might just needs the less-viable mechs to be made more viable through quirks, at least for non-CW play, not ultra-competitive at the expense of lore.

Competitive players will always choose the most powerful “meta” mech. There will always be a flavor of the season. There are also the perennials (Holy Trinity). Yes we saw many play metas during CW. But of course. This is hard core mode. This camp might want to change TT construction rules so that more mechs have a powerful equivalent meta. But to what extent?

The flexibility of Omnipods is balanced by the fixed engine / HS / ES and FF. There have been many calls to allow flexibility in one or all of the four. This would make omnis OP compared to non-omnis. No one will need to play non-omnis. Take the Warhawk. Allow for a change from FF to ES, a change in the positions of the DHS, and suddenly you have a monster of a mech. Its currently profile of a “useless” left Torso and less than useful FF, gives it inherent weaknesses that players can then work around to make the mech work in its direct fire-support role. Not the brawler that it was never meant to be (at least for Prime)

So in the interest of the wider community, let competitive players stick to their meta mechs in hard core game modes / events. For lore lovers, let’s have a certain amount of sensible quirks, small improvements to attempt to level the playing field for less-viable mechs.

Or...those robots get ignored because some robots ARE OPTIMIZED...


Guess which is happening?

[Leetskeet]

FupDup, on 18 April 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

I'm not a fan of it because it just feeds the mentality that everything everywhere must always mount Endo at all times all day every

That's unfortunate because everything must mount endo at all times

That's how it works, sorry.

[Andi Nagasia]

Topic Fully Reworked,
Now discussing an Omni-Upgrade that switches Ferro for Endo,
this would keep Omni-Mechs Unique but still give players choice,

removed Engine modification portion,
but kept text for reference in Topic,

Edit-
Reverted Change to Topic,
will create a new topic and keep this one as reference,

the New Topic can be found in the Link Below,
(Ferro To Endo Upgrade Swapping For Omni-Mechs!)

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 29 April 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Leetskeet, on 28 April 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

That's unfortunate because everything must mount endo at all times

That's how it works, sorry.

the sad truth, is just this,

ya we could hope for a day when Ferro is just as useful as Endo,
but that doesnt seem like much of a prioraty as its not a Huge issue,
ya many feel it needs to change but its not near the top of the list,

will Endo make the Nova completely Viable? No, the nova is currently ok if your boating Lasers,
but Endo it will help many non Laser builds, many Balistics(other than AC2s) would benefit,
2 more DHS may not help much, but 2 more tons of ammo, that can really help,

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 October 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

the sad truth, is just this,

ya we could hope for a day when Ferro is just as useful as Endo,
but that doesnt seem like much of a prioraty as its not a Huge issue,
ya many feel it needs to change but its not near the top of the list,

will Endo make the Nova completely Viable? No, the nova is currently ok if your boating Lasers,
but Endo it will help many non Laser builds, many Balistics(other than AC2s) would benefit,
2 more DHS may not help much, but 2 more tons of ammo, that can really help,

Well, Clan Ferro is not on par with Endo, but be glad you are not saddled with IS Ferro, which IS useless...and takes up twice as much room. At least on Clanners, unless running an Assault, you can usually use both.

That said, the only way I ever see Ferro being useful is if it increased armor CAP, not just pts.

For instance, it gives 1.2x the pts per ton that std armor does. A 75 ton mech can use 14.5 tons of Std Armor, or 12 tons of C-FF. In MWO that is 460 max pts. (231 in TT).. Imagine if FF now allowed the TWolf to mount 552 (277 in TT) pts of armor? That would be 4.5 tons more armor to max out. So it would be MORE (equivalent) than Endo, so perhaps the cap would need to be toned down a bit.

But it's an idea. Also, if one could now up armor an Orion to carry 515 /1.12x multiplier) armor (16 tons)? Again, it would take even MORE tonnage than the Clan FF, but would give one an option based on offensive or defensive playstyles.

Perhaps both allow a blanket 1.12 armor cap increase on top of their respective (1.12 and 1.2x armor pt multipliers) or even,to justify the extra 7 critical space tax for IS, swap the caps.... Clan IS allows more pts per ton, but IS Ferror allows a higher cap (no omni pods to worry about fitting into the armor) making the IS more durable, perhaps, but clans more efficient.

Totally non lore, mind you.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 October 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[SaltBeef]

I would support Endo / ferro swapping for both Clan and IS mechs.
I would support IS XL to Standard switching.
I would support Clan XL engine downgrading or upgrading 5 or 6 engine sizes . If Your Clan omni has 300xl you can upsize or downsize it 5 or 6 sizes only!,...could go up to 325 or 330xl or could downgrade to 270 or 275xl. 400xl mechs can only go downgrade of course.
I would support alowing adjustment of most fixed CT equiptment items both IS and Clan.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 October 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[R Razor]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 April 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

perhaps but Still, i can live with Locked JJ/DHS if we got Unlocked Endo,
thats Endo(with Locked Locations) & Ferro to Endo Switch for Ferro Omnis,

if BattleMechs can Upgrade Endo Ferro DHS dont have Fixed or locked Equipment and its not a problem,
then i dont see why OmniMechs cant Upgrade Endo(Locked Locations) if they have Locked Engine JJ/DHS still,

I'd be okay with unlocking them provided weapon and equipment weights and slot requirements are equalized with their IS counterparts. Otherwise it's just giving the Clans another advantage they don't need now, and really won't need once quirks are removed from the game.

[WildeKarde]

I think I'd have to say no to this idea. As had been mentioned any changes like this aren't purely affecting the underachievers but all the mechs at the top which will get even better. They'd become IS mechs with variable hardpoints at that point.

If the clans were get this then would the next discussion be why can't IS mechs move weapon hardpoints since they are customising everything else? It would help the badly performing chassis and variants compete more would it?

[crustydog]

The lore fully supports the unlocking of everything. The real question is can PGI handle that with this interface?

That would be interesting - might even work.

As far as Clan engines go - in a game where engine size affects your ability to twist and turn - and your available tonnage for equipment and weapons - these engines need desperately to be unlocked... same is true for ES, FF and JJ. That more than anything will unlock the Clans from the laser meta.

What good are ballistic hardpoints without the available tonnage to properly utilize them?

[Bishop Steiner]

crustydog, on 18 October 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

The lore fully supports the unlocking of everything. The real question is can PGI handle that with this interface?

That would be interesting - might even work.

As far as Clan engines go - in a game where engine size affects your ability to twist and turn - and your available tonnage for equipment and weapons - these engines need desperately to be unlocked... same is true for ES, FF and JJ. That more than anything will unlock the Clans from the laser meta.

What good are ballistic hardpoints without the available tonnage to properly utilize them?

actually, the lore specifically does not, especially on Omnis. Omis were always core locked in construction.

Battlemechs had more freedom...but even they were never (for people who actually used the rules) free, open customization.

But that is irrelevant at this point, since PGI has sidestepped lore whenever convenient, anyhow, they might as well do so here, for the sake of balance.

[SaltBeef]

I was just Happy to log onto the PTS jump in a Near stock Timberwolf I put together and was able to use it closer to what it was when released during the initial invasion. Like I said before I support alot of the PTS changes, just not a Fan of more Clan nerfage without a decent trade off in another area where they suffer....like Autocannons , UAC still could use a little bit more of a buff and Heatsink dissipation a tad better. Nobofy wants to only be able to play in chain fire or Blow yourself up because you thought you turned the override off when dueling but had not. I have to ride the edge where there are no room for mistakes that i make alot because of Ghost heat penalties in the heat of the brawl.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 October 2015 - 07:52 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

hopefully we will see a better balance between OmniMechs vs BatleMechs,

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Clan mechs are basically factory limited designs. They have their omni pods and that's it. Clan warriors are some times tossed into different machines on the fly to fit a situation and they all have to be fairly standard to fulfill that versatile role.

They could of course ignore this altogether like most other lore.

Clan Mechs = Basic MWO custom features.
IS = advanced mechanics.

The Clan feature people should be asking for is bidding. We have tonnage. Lets pool the wasted tonnage left over for the team into scouting features, + Turret HP, C-Bill/GXP bonuses etc. In regard to this, solo kills for Clan players should be VERY high. Not just C-Bills, but more experience.

I actually never liked C-Bills for Clan. Influence or Notoriety made more sense than a form of currency. Advancing in respect with the Clans gave you access to better equipment and gear. Just another aspect of the game thrown together quick and easy.

Edited by xMADCATTERx, 14 December 2015 - 03:54 PM.