106 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

Pjwned, on 21 April 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

As far as fixing ECM, make it affect only the mech equipped with it.

i.e. remove supports from the game and decrese the amount of needed scouting, i want to shoot more

Quickdraw Crobat, on 21 April 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

By lore, clan ECM and probe are only superior to IS ones by tonnage and CHS, anyways, so I fail to see your argument.

>In the Clans, the Guardian ECM suite was used as the basis for an improved ECM Suite. This system can be found in every Clan's touman. They weigh a single ton, and can be mounted on nearly anything.

[Khobai]

Quote

As far as fixing ECM, make it affect only the mech equipped with it.

This. ECM should only stealth the mech its equipped on. Thats still amazing for 1-1.5 tons.

However ECM should keep the AOE bubble that doubles missile lockon time against nearby friendly mechs. It just wouldnt give those friendly mechs stealth anymore.

Passive sensor mode should also be added so mechs without ECM have a way to gain limited stealth... but it would come at the cost of switching off your targeting, detailed info, and sensor sharing.

Also LRMs would probably need to undergo some balance changes due to weaker ECM. But LRMs have needed balance changes for a long time anyway to make them less of a spammable noob weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 21 April 2015 - 03:02 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

before even thinking about nerfing ecm all maps should be made significantly (significantly!) bigger

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 21 April 2015 - 02:56 PM.

[Davers]

I don't think PGI wants to tackle ECM right now, because that actually means redesigning ECM, redesigning how LRMs and SRMs work, creating additional radar functionability, rebalancing all the mechs due to the change in ECM/missiles, changing what 'targetting' means and how it works, designing another use for UAVs, etc. Thats a lot of work to end up with something that half the players will hate regardless.

[Pjwned]

bad arcade kitty, on 21 April 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

i.e. remove supports from the game and decrese the amount of needed scouting, i want to shoot more

You can support your teammates with ECM when Angel ECM exists and is a separate piece of equipment for additional weight and space.

Davers, on 21 April 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I don't think PGI wants to tackle ECM right now, because that actually means redesigning ECM, redesigning how LRMs and SRMs work, creating additional radar functionability, rebalancing all the mechs due to the change in ECM/missiles, changing what 'targetting' means and how it works, designing another use for UAVs, etc. Thats a lot of work to end up with something that half the players will hate regardless.

Considering how grossly overpowered it is, all it needs is a hard nerf and then further adjustments can come later if warranted.

[Otto Cannon]

Mystere, on 21 April 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

Here's the rub: I like ECM as is. And I am not alone.

Here's another rub: I like it for reasons different from most people here.

I respect your right to have that opinion. There's no absolute right or wrong, only shades of popularity and preference. Having said that though, I also respect the right of others to like the music of Justin Beiber but if it were set as the background music of MWO with no way to turn it off I'd argue for that to be changed too.

[Khobai]

Quote

Here's the rub: I like ECM as is. And I am not alone.

But you are in the irrational minority. Thankfully most other players have the sense to realize that the benefits ECM provides are not at all proportional to its cost. And even PGI themselves have admitted ECM is broken... they just dont consider fixing it a top priority.

Quote

Considering how grossly overpowered it is, all it needs is a hard nerf and then further adjustments can come later if warranted.

Yep. The absolute bare minimum would be removal of AOE stealth (ECM only stealth the mech its equipped on) and a nerf to indirect LRMs. That wouldnt be difficult to implement at all.

Everything else, like passive sensors, can wait till a later date.

Quote

You can support your teammates with ECM when Angel ECM exists and is a separate piece of equipment for additional weight and space.

Even Angel ECM, as impressive as it is, still doesnt grant stealth. Stealth in battletech/mechwarrior traditionally only comes from null signature system, stealth armor, and passive sensor mode.

Since we dont have NSS, SA, or passive sensors at the moment its okay for ECM to temporarily provide stealth. But it should really only provide stealth to the mech its equipped on. Later on if NSS/SA are added then the stealth abilities of ECM should be completely removed.

Edited by Khobai, 21 April 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Davers, on 21 April 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I don't think PGI wants to tackle ECM right now, because that actually means redesigning ECM, redesigning how LRMs and SRMs work, creating additional radar functionability, rebalancing all the mechs due to the change in ECM/missiles, changing what 'targetting' means and how it works, designing another use for UAVs, etc. Thats a lot of work to end up with something that half the players will hate regardless.

i hope you are right because with the current map size ecm is perfect right now and nerfing it in any way will only simplify the gameplay

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

I was willing to organize something, but they said I couldn't lay my hands on anyone or anything, so basically I was only able to shout cheers from the side lines. What the **** do we need? A thread? A Poll? I think we had plenty of those? consensus? We had a few of those too. What we didn't have was a clear channel to communication. Notice I said to, not of.

Yes we could put something on the board, but what indications do we have that anyone of note is paying attention? I didn't even know the council was shitcanned. I thought it was 'tabled for now, but we're actually going to do this ****.' If I had know that Bish's tweets were the way to go, I would have sent him some cbills yesterday.

Bish : Jump Jets my dude, holler at your boy. the MC is in the mail.

[TLBFestus]

Fool!

No one can see the ECM council, well, because.....ECM......they aren't supposed to be seen.

[Lindonius]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 April 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

What happened to that player council idea anyways?

That was Russ' little bone that he threw the community in the wake of transfail and blaming all MWO's woes on IGP. Once you guys paid up for Clan grab 2 (or was it IS reinforcements? I can't remember, so many grab deals) he just kind of "forgot about it".

Funny that.

[Haji1096]

Shadowpunisher, on 21 April 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

What Happened To The Ecm Council ?

They're dead, Jim.


ECM is beyond stupidly powerful. If you could take on every mech, you would do it every single time.

Edited by Haji1096, 21 April 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Shadowpunisher, on 21 April 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Now everybody is running after new ECM mechs.

People are getting crazy about the Griffin 2N, they all want it !

Asking for an ECM Heavy for IS (Black Knight ?).

Saying how they love the future Shadowcat, just because it have MASC and ECM ... (I bought the complete pack BTW)

What Happened To The Ecm Council ?

Is now everyone OK with how ECM is working in this game ? Looks like it ...

I'm disappointed, I was really hoping for a change but it looks like it will never happen ...

IS should not be so quick to want an ECM Heavy. The Griffin-2N is easier to fit in drop decks, if it works out, it may well prove there is no need for an ECM Heavy. Only problem with it now is you need to pony up real cash for it, bet some will complain of P2B. While the Hellbringer is good for bringing ECM, it takes up more weight plus some Clanners do not consider it that good beyond bringing ECM and if the Shadow Cat is any good may get replaced by it.

Am I OK with ECM? No, there are several roadblocks that have to be overcome to get anything done though and the biggest ones are in the community, not in PGI.

Gas Guzzler, on 21 April 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

It is pretty naive to think that PGI would invest time and resources into holding our hands and producing such a council.

All Russ said, was if you can come up with a clearly and concisely written solution for how ECM should function, and get some super majority (don't remember exact percentage) to agree on it, then PGI would work to implement that solution. The "player council" concept came from other players being like "hey wouldn't it be great if we had a player council to come up with this and future ideas?". I don't see why PGI would be interested in a player council, and frankly, you will never get such a majority, there are too many varying opinions and different playstyles.

Russ' idea was clearly doomed to failure. The first msitake is that getting the playerbase under Anarchy conditions to agree to something would never work. The second was requiring a super majority. How much of a majority? Majority of people on the forums or in game? Majority in game would be tough because then you would have to contact all those players who never to rarely visit the forums to come and participate, good luck with that.
Player Council would work, the big roadblock is who gets to be on it.

Mystere, on 21 April 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

I have just two points to make:
The ugly side of player-led councils, and human nature, already started to rear it's head. I want nothing of that.
Do you personally know of any truly "great" products that were "designed by committee"? I personally have seen none. But, what I do have seen is are mediocre "designed by committee" products become "much better" because someone took personal ownership of the project. YMMV of course.

Yes, I do know of great products made with council involvement.

[Deathlike]

I'm more or less convinced that this was doomed to fail, but only because it was reinforce that the issue is complicated and PGI believes it knows best (and leave it alone, maybe revisit in in 2018).

I'm inclined to think the "quick fix solution" would have been PGI's best option, instead of a more complex solution that would take multiple steps/iterations to get working better than it is now.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 April 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[JaxRiot]

The Council was before my time here. But from what I know about it, I think it was just diversion tactics. Kind of like playing stick fetch with your dog but you throw it into the bushes to keep the dog occupied so you can go about whatever it was that you were doing.

They wont change ECM. I dont think they ever had any intentions of actually changing ECM. ECM is the most over powered item in the game and they are going to keep it that way so they can sell mech packs. A mech by itself is pretty cool. A mech with ECM is pure gold and practically too good to pass up.

Thats why they are asking the community which future mechs would the community like to see with ECM. Because ECM sells more than the mechs do. Thats their gimmick

This so called "ECM Council" was nothing more than a Red Herring. They duped the community is all they did.

Edited by JaxRiot, 21 April 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 21 April 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

But you are in the irrational minority. Thankfully most other players have the sense to realize that the benefits ECM provides are not at all proportional to its cost. And even PGI themselves have admitted ECM is broken... they just dont consider fixing it a top priority.

I can actually say you and some others are the irrational ones for insisting on 1-on-1 symmetrical balance in an IP that is inherently asymmetrical. It does work both ways, you know.

[Mystere]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 21 April 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

Without touching ECM at all? No, not really.

You, Khobai, 1453 R, and I just illustrated why a player council would not have worked, which is the real gist of this thread, not whether or not ECM need changing.

(And I apologize to you QC for manipulating you into becoming part of my example. )

Edited by Mystere, 21 April 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[1453 R]

Mystere, on 21 April 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

You just illustrated why a player council would not have worked.

(And I apologize for manipulating you into becoming my example. )

So if the playerbase as a whole does not completely agree with how Mystere wants to run things, it's indicative of why we're all a bunch of screaming lackwits who don't deserve to have any voice or input into a property we're nonetheless expected to pump hundreds of dollars into?

No chance for Quickdraw to say "removing those points without changing the rest of the proposal sorta invalidates the whole thing, but maybe we can figure out a way to lessen the ECM impacts of it, just to see where it goes"?

Seriously, Mystere. You can't honestly think that the current situation - both with Information Warfare, and with Piranha's decision to cut these forums completely out of their communications loops - is tolerable?

Edited by 1453 R, 21 April 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[Mystere]

1453 R, on 21 April 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

So if the playerbase as a whole does not completely agree with how Mystere wants to run things, it's indicative of why we're all a bunch of screaming lackwits who don't deserve to have any voice or input into a property we're nonetheless expected to pump hundreds of dollars into?

No chance for Quickdraw to say "removing those points without changing the rest of the proposal sorta invalidates the whole thing, but maybe we can figure out a way to lessen the ECM impacts of it, just to see where it goes"?

Seriously, Mystere. You can't honestly think that the current situation - both with Information Warfare, and with Piranha's decision to cut these forums completely out of their communications loops - is tolerable?

Read my edit. You're too fast to reply.

[bad arcade kitty]

JaxRiot, on 21 April 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

ECM is the most over powered item in the game and they are going to keep it that way so they can sell mech packs.

yeah, that's why they let people buy kfx-c right arm with ecm for c-bills, the only omnipod of all that gift store pack available for everybody for months before 21st april patch

it seems you are wrong on their intentions doesn't it