109 replies to this topic

[luxebo]

Bows3r, on 27 April 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

You did not mention in the post I referred to that you were only down to a leg and CT, next time clarify please.
And also, while GMan's opinion is to be respected, and frankly that goes for the whole of SJR, there are other skilled comp units out there, some of whom do use brawling as their primary tactics.

Yeah, which is why I'm in the progress of asking other teams/group leaders too. Should've been more clear on the AS7 case, it's not easy to assault brawl anymore due to how important mobility is.

Torchfire, on 27 April 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

Defining a brawl as combat within 200 meters:

Effective Clan Brawl Weapons

• A+SRM 4/6
  
• S-SRM 4/6
  
• Small Pulse Laser

Effective IS Brawl Weapons

• SRM 4/6 (NEEDS ATERMIS)
  
• AC 20
  
• Small Pulse Laser (Lights only)

This is what competitive brawl is. Maybe add LPL, MPL, and ML for edge quirked cases (Thunderbolt, HBK-4P). Rest is really really reliant on all of this here, ASRMs, SSRMs, AC20s, and maybe some almost unneeded lazors (except once again Thunderbolts and HBK-4P).

Not gonna comment on lights, it's directly forced to IS being better as of right now until Arctic Cheetah, which will likely over take every single Fs9 advantage, but until then not gonna say anything. Same as Cauldron or Shadow Cat.

If you're gonna argue that the SCR is worse than a STK-5M at brawling... well two seconds later that SCR is right in the STKs back. Unless a STK is actually pushing against a SCR, in almost every case the STK-5M will lose. The STK isn't any less potent to overheating, and is 10 times slower, so any smart SCR player can get out and return to the brawl. Speed is life for all brawling except tanky/slow brawling at face to face type brawling (which almost rarely happens unless the other team messes up.)

[luxebo]

White Bear 84, on 27 April 2015 - 10:12 PM, said:

Trading has its place, but only if your smart enough to not allow yourself to get out ranged or out damaged by the clans.
But brawling has a place. Most of my dropdeck is brawling mechs - the entire competition for Tukayyid, after 30 matches I have consistently reached match score with anywhere between 5 - 10 kills, ~1,500 damage.
Might not be the greatest score of all time.. ..but what I value about this is that none of my preferred CW mechs are 'long range'. NONE. (I do have variants of all the meta, but i choose to run otherwise).
Long range sniping and trading counts for squat if you get rushed or they are on top of the gen and you need to disable them fast - or you are engaged in close range choke points.
As for the argument regarding streakcrows and the likes - my YLW with its sole AC/20 has taken the scalp of many streakcrows, lrmdogs, gausswolves and the likes. I have no shame in brawling to the max.
On a side note, maybe also consider - which mechs tend to run hotter? Clan or IS? Whoever runs hottest & cannot dish out sustained dps will probably be at the disadvantage...
On a second side note - at the end of the day, different people and units have different approaches. Groups should work with what tactics work for them, pugs should learn what does and does not work and work with that.

Long range/mid range generally works, as long as your team takes cover and knows where to defend from etc.

I personally like brawling. But it has almost no place as IS vs Clan in CW, as Clanners have better brawlers over all. Streakcrows aren't the main worry but more splatcrows with their 3-2 punch then flanking out and pushing again. Generally my team can do well without brawling, though we might leave one med brawl wave for last if all goes wrong. We generally never brawl in CW now since it's sorta lacking and trading shots from range is just better.

Long ranging and mid ranging is extremely important, which ends up why almost every single comp battle (or even pugging) ends in pure dps from long/mid range. Barely anyone uses Streaks, SRMs, or AC20, just lazors, gauss.

Remember that the Clan mechs can hit harder quicker, which makes them much more preferable as they can swoop in and cooldown out. Plus if that fails they still have a team (enough speed to maneuver to their team, while IS mechs stuck in pitiful STD engines end awfully slow.) Brawling is more about fast brawling, able to move in and out of cover and strike the enemy at 200m or less.

[Lily from animove]

luxebo, on 25 April 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

Have you ever heard of chainfire and SSRMs? If you say OMG ECM then that's due to no GRF-2N for c-bills.

How to spread dmaage like a baws and lose any brawl? chainfire ssrms!

LOL in which elo do those tactics work?

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 April 2015 - 10:57 PM.

[luxebo]

Lily from animove, on 27 April 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

How to spread dmaage like a baws and lose any brawl? chainfire ssrms!
LOL in which elo do those tactics work?

Not chain fire but the 3-2 punch on the Stormcrow, and 2-2 punch on Timber (or just alpha but heat will rise).

[Romeo Deluxe]

My experience has been it comes down to heat. Make a heat efficient IS mech and keep moving. Always try to circle strafe, even if you are in a slow Heavy. That little bit of moving around can still work to your advantage. When the clan mech shuts down, make sure to try to get to his back and get in a couple more volleys. You will not always win the duel but it might be enough to edge your team ahead.

Also, legs are my main focus. Since I run a mostly light deck I'm always going for the legs. My score has been improving. I'm more consistently getting to 1k damage this way. Still needs to get better, but it's crawling up as I play more CW.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 28 April 2015 - 02:50 AM.

[demoyn]

luxebo, on 27 April 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

Long range/mid range generally works, as long as your team takes cover and knows where to defend from etc.

I personally like brawling. But it has almost no place as IS vs Clan in CW, as Clanners have better brawlers over all.

This would be a good point if it weren't completely wrong. Your argument seems to be that patient pilots with good aim and map awareness are better than ADHD kids with short ranged weapons.

Put those patient, aware pilots behind cover until the enemy is forced to make a mistake and engage at close range and you will be dumbfounded by how much better they perform. You know how I know this? Because my AS7-D-DC brawler, GRF-2N brawler x2, RVN-3L ERL deck has been wrecking shop all weekend.

Edited by demoyn, 28 April 2015 - 07:37 AM.

[sycocys]

luxebo, on 27 April 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

As much as I like the Hunchies, 4SP is not as great as Griffins due to heat of MLs, so much symmetry, and easily isolated torsos. 4G is better though, though is not really reliable compared to Griffins in CW due to ammo problems. 4P suffers the same Nova-like fate of heat.

I have one experience with ol' boomstick 4SP, I ran into a Stormcrow with 5 SRM6 loadout as usual (because every other person is running it). It's just me and him since we were fighting over a side cap point (Gamma or Sig?) He one shotted (well 3-2 punched) my side torso, so I ran to cover. Of course I'm too slow (106 kph > 92 kph) and my SRMs barely core one leg as I'm left with ML. I get it to orange and then I die even though I wasn't even cored when I lost all my other weapons. The 4SP is simply way too glass cannon and can't take hits, unlike the Stormcrow which can soak damage with it's stupid hands and impossible to isolate torsos.

Why in god's name are you trying to shoot out legs with a 4sp? Much less running either straight srm6s with no ammo/few DHS or an xl engine?

You have 5ML + 2 SRM's that you can pinpoint onto their ct/st/cockpit all of which have better hitboxes than legs and don't flail around - again why would you even mess around with legs in a brawl?

You shoot for ineffective locations which sets up terrible positioning on your part.

Solution:
Start playing Commandos - get right up into the fight with guys and learn about setting up shot angles for you and poor ones for them and gaining position with or without cover. One you are brawling with the Com units and netting 400+ damage and a kill per match then you are ready to start thinking about bigger mechs.

If you can't brawl in a commando, you aren't going to be very successful in anything else without completely breaking out of your poor habits the hard way - dying a lot and thinking IS mechs are worse brawlers.

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

sycocys, on 28 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Why in god's name are you trying to shoot out legs with a 4sp? Much less running either straight srm6s with no ammo/few DHS or an xl engine?

You have 5ML + 2 SRM's that you can pinpoint onto their ct/st/cockpit all of which have better hitboxes than legs and don't flail around - again why would you even mess around with legs in a brawl?

You shoot for ineffective locations which sets up terrible positioning on your part.

The reason why you go for legs is because if you are all focusing the same targets, the legs are a single target without seperate front and back armor, that way anyone following your target can hit it no matter what angle they are shooting him from. In addition, you don't aim for the leg itself you aim for the hip which does not sway back and forth but is still part of the leg hitbox.

Edited by Asian Tupac, 28 April 2015 - 04:33 PM.

[luxebo]

demoyn, on 28 April 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

This would be a good point if it weren't completely wrong. Your argument seems to be that patient pilots with good aim and map awareness are better than ADHD kids with short ranged weapons.

Put those patient, aware pilots behind cover until the enemy is forced to make a mistake and engage at close range and you will be dumbfounded by how much better they perform. You know how I know this? Because my AS7-D-DC brawler, GRF-2N brawler x2, RVN-3L ERL deck has been wrecking shop all weekend.

Notice how I specifically omitted the 2N. That is a mech that CAN counter the Stormcrow, as ECM + JJs have quite a bit to add on against the Stormcrow, along with good hitboxes in itself. DDC is a great mech, but I'm mostly focusing on fast brawling, which is the majority of the brawling and when the 2N comes we will have a good mech against the Stormcrow/Timber. The DDC is great when both sides are pushing, not only just one side trying to flank push/counter the enemies snipers/brawlers. And of course the Atlas, Banshee, and Stalker are best via brawling.

Patient pilots are always better than impatient ones. Good aim and situational awareness is key.

[luxebo]

sycocys, on 28 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Why in god's name are you trying to shoot out legs with a 4sp? Much less running either straight srm6s with no ammo/few DHS or an xl engine?

You have 5ML + 2 SRM's that you can pinpoint onto their ct/st/cockpit all of which have better hitboxes than legs and don't flail around - again why would you even mess around with legs in a brawl?

You shoot for ineffective locations which sets up terrible positioning on your part.

Solution:
Start playing Commandos - get right up into the fight with guys and learn about setting up shot angles for you and poor ones for them and gaining position with or without cover. One you are brawling with the Com units and netting 400+ damage and a kill per match then you are ready to start thinking about bigger mechs.

If you can't brawl in a commando, you aren't going to be very successful in anything else without completely breaking out of your poor habits the hard way - dying a lot and thinking IS mechs are worse brawlers.

Let's start from the beginning...

As Tupac said it's the hip joints rather than try to core a Stormcrow out since it can torso twist quickly and block shots with the stupid hands. Plus bouncing torso so it's even harder.

Cmon, XL engine on a Hunch? If you think I'm that dumb I wouldn't be making this thread. No Atermis? That's also a mistake.
If you want my build here it is. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3890f976dcac02b

It's a stupid Stormcrow. Not aiming legs is a waste of your ammo since it will disarm you way faster.

Commandos are lights, and I will treat them outside of what I'm talking of right this moment. Not going to consider light vs light brawling yet till Shadow Cat and Arctic Cheeter is here. Yes, the Arctic Cheeter.

[Valar13]

luxebo, on 28 April 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

Arctic Cheeter.

Death by LOL.

[sycocys]

A commando can brawl anything. It's not light v light - its learning your positioning angles in a humanoid mech that is weak enough to go down fast and show you exactly the points you are messing up at.

And a Stormcrow regardless of the front/rear armor is still vastly quicker to disarm at the side torsos, because those are the only hit boxes it has that aren't wonky - zomg they turned and gave your their weaker yet back armor?!?!?!

---
Concerning that 4sp built your weak points are your srm6's and your lack of heat sinks. Even with artemis srm6s don't converge until past 150-170m so most of your damage ends up being wasted (especially with the quirk). Srm4's with artemis are nearly pinpoint converged at 50m.

Put a 235 in that thing and srm4s with artemis, and fill up with heat sinks. Once you are running an effective build you'll better understand why shooting at legs with it is a pointless battle.

[sycocys]

Had to run to work -

Concerning the legs - the only times you should ever be targeting the legs on mechs heavier than lights are-
1. With 11 others stopping a gen rush.
2. The leg is already red.

Why? Because if you are targeting the legs you are ceding control of fire angles the moment you make that choice. Their legs don't shoot at you or matter which direction they are facing so the rest of their weapons can be put onto you - which coincidentally because you are focused on their legs you are wide open for being slaughtered.

If you are opening and focusing on torsoes, then the moment you strip the armor off of a torso part - YOU have control of their shots, their angles of approach, their need for giving you their back (which they have 0 shots from that angle), and force them into any sort of cover they can find - which is usually their buddy.

You are additionally eliminating weapons systems in the process that immediately reduces their battle effectiveness.

I suspect that this belief that the legs should be primary because of only one hitbox is the reason why most players are terrified of srm/streak clanners - just look at it this way, if they have 6 srm6's.. they are only hitting worth 4-5 srm4s because of the terrible spread and have worse heat efficiency than IS srm6s.

Streaks are a little tougher, but as soon as you strip the T's their danger quickly falls apart.

-- You should also note that especially in the case of a stormcrow, it has equal overall armor on a ST to a leg. What this means is that blowing out a torso is actually going to be faster regardless of the fact that legs flail around because that armor is split to have at least 10 on the back.

What that means in a 4sp with srm4s is that one cycle of your weapons will strip their front ST, while it will take a minimum of 1.5 to strip the leg armor. That equates to less heat/ammo spent gaining a much more superior advantage over your opponent.

Edited by sycocys, 29 April 2015 - 05:27 AM.

[DaynarFaol]

I routinely brawl assaults in a Yen Lo. Tanky Cent is tanky. While going against a pair of Dires tends to end poorly for me I generally dish out a rather decent amount of pinpoint damage.

Against IS Assaults I generally strip most of the armor off of them in a Cent or Enf.

Part of it is the difference in profile, part of it is skill with the mech.

That is the key to any build.

Yes the 60 SRM Crow is dangerous, but if you know how to move and use the map you can negate a lot of that. And after 3 or three shots they generally shut down.

Which is when I take off a leg.

Every mech will have a thing it is good at, and a thing it is bad at.

Each of the chassis will be similar.

But the key factor for any build is how comfortable the pilot is with it.

[sycocys]

Unless your mission is stricly for component destruction - the armor values and hardpoints make the torso locations vastly more valuable targets.

Yes legs slow them down - losing their armor protecting their life and weapons removes their capability to engage in any effective combat.

Different mech's do perform differently to some degree - the key to effective brawling is always controlling your opponents fire.

Edited by sycocys, 29 April 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[Klappspaten]

Mh strange, when the Clans can brawl better than the IS, why do the drops I command keep winning those brawls?

[Damon Howe]

Just a small point on "shooting legs".

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the greatest shot. I don't always hit my intended target, or hit it where I want to. Having said that, consider this.

When firing at a mech's torso, you have a grand-total of 9 potential hitboxes you can hit (HD, RA, RT, CT, LT, LA, RRT, RCT, RLT). In addition, if you hit a side that has already been destroyed, you do half the damage your shot would normally do to the next torso over.

Compare that to legs, where you have 2 potential hitboxes - RL, LL.

That is all.

[technopredator]

Whoever says a IS ',ech is better in anything to a same-class C-mech is either stupid or playing 1, for the following reason: clan anything are the next generation in 'mech technology, this is in the Battle 'mech Universe story, and as so in the game. Clan weapons deal more damage, have bigger range, cooldown isn't proportional to IS 'mech weapons, clan weps generate more heat but cool-down faster, have more tolerance to heat, can carry more weps, C-LRM is way more efficient in its fly path and fly faster, have omni-pods to optimize the loadout for the purpose you want, that's why c-mechs will always win at distance fights,and close range and at any range, all they have to do is group up and go stump the IS 'mechs, specially when th IS pilots are newbs, because c-mechs are the ones that know the game and story and they have bought the c-'mechs because of that, new pilots to the game and story like me don't have even enough 'mechs to be good grawlers let alone the C-Bills/MC to buy c-mechs and c-equipement.

BTW there is this c-mech that can carry 16 C-ML, yes, 16 !!! you can't alpha, but you can group them up to intercalate with coolants to fire them all and create great damage at a safe distance, that's 2xBNC-5M so F U if you think a IS 'mech can win at all, the event clearly shows this, the lower I've seen the % of it, it was about 33% favoring the attackers up to 77% also in attackers favor.

Don't mind the first people that post in a thread after the OP, every forum has them, probably some losers with no life, seeking attention or just dumb kids which maximum achievement is come and troll a forum of the game they play, this can be deducted from the simple and yet stupid/fallacies posts they make, and it's known that first conclusions are simple ideas generally wrong, it's just the way the human mind works, it should be avoided, and think hard before posting.

[sycocys]

Damon Howe, on 29 April 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Just a small point on "shooting legs".

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the greatest shot. I don't always hit my intended target, or hit it where I want to. Having said that, consider this.

When firing at a mech's torso, you have a grand-total of 9 potential hitboxes you can hit (HD, RA, RT, CT, LT, LA, RRT, RCT, RLT). In addition, if you hit a side that has already been destroyed, you do half the damage your shot would normally do to the next torso over.

Compare that to legs, where you have 2 potential hitboxes - RL, LL.

That is all.

Those 2 potential hitboxes also move constantly and have some amount of lag shield built in because of that - which shrinks their effective target size for players that have trouble aiming at the parts that don't.

The big thing is that if you are shooting legs you are ceding your control over firing angles, when you are brawling taking control of that aspect is the key to success.

Taking the armor off the 9 other hit boxes even if you can't place your targets perfectly controls how your opponent can engage you, while shooting at their legs which generally have more armor than all the other boxes but the front CT leaves them open to engage you at will - because you are still facing them to firing on their legs, but not controlling where they are facing.

[Damon Howe]

I have no idea what the heck "ceding firing angles" means or how it affects me taking their leg off, but...

Dominant and successful strategy against lights/rushs:
1) Leg light/rushing mech
2) Kill light/rushing mech

So you're saying that we shouldn't leg mechs because its too hard, even though everyone knows the only way to stop a rush successfully is to leg the mechs.

Explain this to me, because I really must be missing some key element to an advanced level of thought.