109 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

luxebo, on 04 May 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

-snip-

Brawling: generally a medium to heavy mech (<=stereotypically) going faster then most other classes. (Juggernaut, Sniper, LRM boat, etc) but slower then the others (scout, skirmisher, striker, harasser, etc)

This is a mech with some long range weapons (say a single PPC or large laser, or a few LRM's, ie Centurion, [X] Ballistic and LRM 10), but majority of firepower is focused for close up brawling and close range combat.


An atlas, King crab, or stalker fail to be a brawler as they are too heavy and can not catch up to an average brawler like a centurion or a hunchback.

These mechs here (minus Stalkers stock configurations) are juggernauts, basicly the step lower, worse range combat (to ratio) with less speed and more armour and firepower, ie atlas with a LRM 20, SRM 6, 4 medium laser, AC 20.


Now there is the verb term which is different which basicly means "close up fighting" in short for BT.

So a Skirmisher and Juggernaut can brawl but they are not brawlers.



These fine but fuzzy lines are one reason why I like having my mechs follow there traditional roles to have this fine diversity in this game. This is why a firestarter, jenner, wolfhound, or panther will never be the same to me even though all are 35 ton mechs with lots of E hardpoints.

[PerfectDuck]

Centurion or hunchback are not 'average brawler' by any means in the CW meta. They are rarely ever fielded by the successful teams. They certainly aren't popular among the winning Kuritan groups, and I can vouch for this because I have led drops of wildly mixed and assorted units/pilots out of House Kurita teamspeak. Do you want to be out-tonned by your opponent and crushed hard? Because taking a 50-ton mech is how you get out-tonned by your opponent and crushed hard. Take a good look at some of the decks that Kurita units use:

Atlas Stalker Firestarter Spider
Stalker Banshee Firestarter Firestarter
Stalker Thunderbolt Thunderbolt Firestarter
Atlas Dragon Dragon Spider
Banshee Dragon Dragon Firestarter
Atlas Dragon Griffin Firestarter
Atlas Thunderbolt Thunderbolt Locust

Variations: Atlas could be King Crab instead; Firestarter could be RVN-H; STK and BLR interchangeable.

Obviously this isn't every single pilot's deck represented here and you may see the odd medium occaisionally but we rarely ever use them because we do one of two things: 1, we bring our lights and cause as much destruction as possible, or 2, we get in big mechs that aren't flimsy and hope to crush our opposition. (Ever been in a pug drop where your team has two awesomes and a victor while your opponent has five assaults including 3 dire wolves? We aim to out-ton our opponents by going lights, doing whatever the lights can and getting that out of the way and then we TON UP). The reason IS brawls better than the clans is because clanner drop decks are loathe to bring many assaults into the field. 1,000 tons of IS assaults/heavies will defeat 850 tons of clanner mixed TBR - HBR hardware. The light waves don't trade too badly either.

[Carbon Guardian]

Does anybody use AMS anymore? I can take a good chunk out of a streakcrow, in my spider-5D if I use my ECM and AMS with 3 medium pulse lasers. AMS greatly reduces the damage of missiles, it's the only way to stay alive in a light mech while helping your team out. I try to run AMS on all of my mechs the one medium laser sacrifice for taking less damage imo is well worth it.

[Exotic]

PerfectDuck, on 07 May 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Take a good look at some of the decks that Kurita units use:

Atlas Stalker Firestarter Spider
Stalker Banshee Firestarter Firestarter
Stalker Thunderbolt Thunderbolt Firestarter
Atlas Dragon Dragon Spider
Banshee Dragon Dragon Firestarter
Atlas Dragon Griffin Firestarter
Atlas Thunderbolt Thunderbolt Locust

Variations: Atlas could be King Crab instead; Firestarter could be RVN-H; STK and BLR interchangeable.

Omg, wtf Atlas @ cw? Only 3rd deck looks reasonable (but I prefer 3L or 2X raven instead of FS).
IS mechs can beat clans only in midrange. Long is death for IS but close as well. cSRM is fine but cSSRM makes tons of pain (on 4x6 cSSRM adder and on 5x6 cSSRM stromcrow, on Timber better not to use cSSRM and MadDog just dont have good place in cw deck at all)

P.S. We usually play 1 by 1 weeks clans/is (by turn) so I think that we know all weak and strong points of both sides. If you are not sure about our expirience - just check our Tukayyid winrate (Kurita-VRGD) and compare with other units.

Edited by Exotic, 07 May 2015 - 11:32 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

We bring about 20 AMS units when we do our all-light rushes, with the vast majority of them mounted to Firestarter S models armed with Medium Pulse Laser. It greatly protects us against streaks (100% missile mitigation if our ball is tight and the streak volleys were shot at 250+ meters) but we are still vulnerable when a crow or mad dog splats 30+ missiles at point-blank ranges or if they are wisely targeting a straggler out of the group. It also protects us against LRMs which can be an issue for lights because the LRMs tend to cause leg damage when we're on the move. We've had enough experiences where our Firestarters have expended their 2000+ AMS ammo to know that this practice is worth doing.

[PerfectDuck]

Exotic, on 07 May 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Omg, wtf Atlas @ cw?

I have literally never once dropped in Community Warfare without an Atlas D-DC in my personal deck since the beginning of CW and I'm an officer / drop caller for Night's Scorn. I dunno what more needs said.

Exotic, on 07 May 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

IS mechs can beat clans only in midrange.

Mid range is EXACTLY where the clans want to fight you at. There is nothing they love more than to blast a full vomit volley of ERML and whatever else at 500m and then cool off and hide. If you let them do this they will win. Their best advantage is in high-alpha trading at mid ranges. Inner Sphere mechs actually can excel at extreme-range sniping due to the presence of dual-gauss builds [that don't suck], high mount locations, and specifically the quad-ERLL Stalker, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt.

To clarify: We call distances that SRMs cannot reach mid-range, so from about 300 to 600.

Edited by PerfectDuck, 07 May 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Davers]

Here is a video of moderatepudding doing 1v1 matches against a mix of long range and short range Timberwolves in a Thunderbolt 5SS (7 MPL). As you can see, if played smart, it is more than a match for the Timberwolves. Not sure if this would hold as true for a 12v12 though.

[Shiven]

Davers, on 07 May 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Here is a video of moderatepudding doing 1v1 matches against a mix of long range and short range Timberwolves in a Thunderbolt 5SS (7 MPL). As you can see, if played smart, it is more than a match for the Timberwolves. Not sure if this would hold as true for a 12v12 though.

As Duck said above, we (NS) regularly beat clanners in brawls. The areas where clan mechs shine are mid range skirmishes, where their mobility and firepower outclass IS machines. The only exception here is the STK-4N as it's firepower at mid range is nearly unparalleled but, it lacks mobility.

Edited by Shiven, 07 May 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[Void Angel]

luxebo, on 25 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

BECAUSE IT CLEARLY ISN'T CORRECT IN ANY CASE!

They actually brawl better in most if not all cases. A Stormcrow can have FIVE SRM/SSRMs along with a head laser, while being TEN tons under a Catapult A1, and THIRTY TONS under a STK-5M, likely with the same loadout and going 40 kph slower! A Timber can outpace ANY heavy except other Clan heavies, along with having a bigger alpha than assaults normally can contain. A Mad Dog can also rub it in the face with 6 SRMs along with some back up lasers while being 5 tons less than the Catapult and have more than 1000 damage worth of SRMs/SSRMs compared to the Catapult.

So stop brawling use 4Ns and dual gauss and stuff to try to trade enemies until they get free TBR-A hardpoints. Then after that just hope they don't bring TBR-A hardpoints.

Oh and if anyone goes to alpha in Grim then yell at them not to. Only exception is if it's a light mech rush.

Spoiler

And also: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

Inner Sphere v. Clan brawling effectiveness is a math problem with graphics, and you have the wrong answer.

[Shiven]

luxebo, on 25 April 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

They actually brawl better in most if not all cases. A Stormcrow can have FIVE SRM/SSRMs along with a head laser, while being TEN tons under a Catapult A1, and THIRTY TONS under a STK-5M, likely with the same loadout and going 40 kph slower! A Timber can outpace ANY heavy except other Clan heavies, along with having a bigger alpha than assaults normally can contain. A Mad Dog can also rub it in the face with 6 SRMs along with some back up lasers while being 5 tons less than the Catapult and have more than 1000 damage worth of SRMs/SSRMs compared to the Catapult.

So stop brawling use 4Ns and dual gauss and stuff to try to trade enemies until they get free TBR-A hardpoints. Then after that just hope they don't bring TBR-A hardpoints.

Oh and if anyone goes to alpha in Grim then yell at them not to. Only exception is if it's a light mech rush.

BTW, the Griffin 2N would like to have a word with you. 4xSRM6+art / 2SML and it's an ECM variant.

Edited by Shiven, 07 May 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[PerfectDuck]

After we do a light wave and then two huge assault/heavy waves, we tend to have a 4th junk wave of 'leftover' mechs and it often ends up being a combination of griffins and dragons and lights. Good God is it effective.

[RiceCop]

IS has GRF, HBK, WVR as medium brawlers, I'm not scared of a SRM30 crow at all in those mechs. And stop trying to brawl in a STK and start using AS7. A good brawler Atlas will wreck just about any mech 1v1 up close.

[PerfectDuck]

RiceCop, on 07 May 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

IS has GRF, HBK, WVR as medium brawlers, I'm not scared of a SRM30 crow at all in those mechs. And stop trying to brawl in a STK and start using AS7. A good brawler Atlas will wreck just about any mech 1v1 up close.

Medium mechs are simply not worth taking in CW. Too slow to be in a light wave and too puny to be in a heavy wave. The only reason they should be in a deck is to fill tonnage. Wolverine and Griffin do pull their weight commendably I will admit, but they are still squishy.

On the subject of Atlas, we have found that too many Atlas is too much tonnage commitment and not enough precision focus fire damage. We never take more than two per wave, and they serve as the damage sponges, spearheading a push and often being the first to die so that the rest of the mechs like Stalkers and Thunderbolts come in and wreck house against a bunch of clanners that overheated off killing the Atlas. We have our pilots swap Atlas for King Crab accordingly so that we ensure our damage is also high in these huge pushes.

[Void Angel]

PS: Because this:


The Inner Sphere would still be well-advised to brawl with the Clans even if your assertion that the Clans were better at it was anything like correct.

[Rando Slim]

Clans brawl just fine, don't understand this thread. I can put together several varieties of Crows, Timbers, Summoners, Adders, Warhawks that can maintain a sound heat efficiency and rip things apart in a brawl faster than anything the IS can come up with. And Im not even good. Maybe mathematically its possible that IS is better strictly on a weapon based analysis.........but tell that to my 4 srm 6+ Artemis/ 2 mg Summoner.......it runs 93, can spread damage, jump, unleash a 48 point alpha strike and never worry about ghost heat because its heat efficiency is north of 1.7. Yea, you aren't overheating me in a brawl and I will likely kill whatever IS mech you throw at me.........and thats not even in a crow or timberwolf. 4 small pulse, 4 srm 6+ Artemis and 3 mgs? And your sitting here telling me that theres an actual percieved argument that IS can compete with the EIGHTY-FOUR POINT ALPHA THAT PROVIDES (er well really its 72 plus whatever the machine guns can do). LOL. Oh sure I might just barely overheat and shut down for a split second (key word is MIGHT, but honestly probably not), but it wont even be long enough for you to get behind me. Look clans are pretty much OP, it has been this way for 11 months and nothing has changed, quirks be damned. Are the IS comparatively a little closer? I suppose, but saying they are superior brawlers is completely dependent on a mismatch of pilot skill. The only way IS can claim they have better brawlers is by matching up against mechs in a lower weight class piloted by someone who is off thier game that day. Yes, it is true that IS has a less significant comparative disadvantage when brawling than trading at range with the clans......but to say that means they are actually better at brawling overall than clans does not match up with what I see on the battle field at all. It only means they will lose less badly doing that.

Edited by Rando Slim, 07 May 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Kain Demos]

Clan 'mechs are not as incompetent in a brawl as many like to pretend (strong brawling builds do exist) but many of the most complained about metabuilds are NOT brawling builds and get wrecked when pushed to brawl.

Like many other people have stated already the strength of the clans is to play peekaboo with large alpha strikes at med-long range. This plays to their strengths (range, raw alpha damage despite its "spreadability") while downplaying their weakness since time to cool off is ample playing peekaboo.

The IS however, favors prolonged fights and the brawl. Better heat efficiency, pinpoint ACs, much more pinpoint lasers, and a plethora of man shaped 'mechs that can shield well.

The AC/20 + SRMs + MLs Atlas is about the last 'mech I want to suddenly find myself within 300m of no matter what I am in. Of course, that is a dedicated brawling build with very limited range so running it carries a risk of being engaged outside of its range......but so does every CSPLAS+SRM brawler the clans run.

[Moomtazz]

Davers, on 07 May 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

Here is a video of moderatepudding doing 1v1 matches against a mix of long range and short range Timberwolves in a Thunderbolt 5SS (7 MPL). As you can see, if played smart, it is more than a match for the Timberwolves. Not sure if this would hold as true for a 12v12 though.

Uhh 8:22 LMAO do you see it too?

[Kain Demos]

Moomtazz, on 07 May 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

Uhh 8:22 LMAO do you see it too?

The way target info is being displayed sort of looks like the radar hack from soy's video it but it is lacking some of the other features.

The way they are spectating (with no other player at the EOM screen, the ability to zoom out, and the way they see both players at all times) it seems like a completely different spectator mode is being used that I am not aware of.

Or were you referring to the "red reticle"?

The more I watch this how are they spectating like that? Is there a "free spectate" mode in this game that I don't know about?

Edited by Kain Thul, 07 May 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Thorqemada]

I would guess they use the Spectator Tool that PGI made once for Tournaments...

[Kain Demos]

Thorqemada, on 07 May 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

I would guess they use the Spectator Tool that PGI made once for Tournaments...

Is that still available? It looks really cool--usually when we do 1v1s and the like we just run out of bounds and spectate normally. This looks to have many more features.

Edited by Kain Thul, 07 May 2015 - 02:56 PM.