109 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Damon Howe, on 29 April 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

I have no idea what the heck "ceding firing angles" means or how it affects me taking their leg off, but...

Dominant and successful strategy against lights/rushs:
1) Leg light/rushing mech
2) Kill light/rushing mech

So you're saying that we shouldn't leg mechs because its too hard, even though everyone knows the only way to stop a rush successfully is to leg the mechs.

Explain this to me, because I really must be missing some key element to an advanced level of thought.

Explained it before, you must have skipped over that post.

Recap: The only time legs should be the focus on anything over a light mech is when 11 are focusing to stop a generator rush.
Additional note - that is not a brawling situation, that is intercepting mechs that are running past you with no intention to fight unless legged.
--
Ceding the fire angles is when you stay locked/focused on a bad one giving your opponent the choice and control over what firing angles are being used in your encounter.
Basically put - you are giving them the control over your brawl, willingly and intentionally.

You start firing at their legs in a brawl - they have open season on you because you are not forcing them to do anything but move their legs - that means they get to choose not only where to shoot you - but also dictates how you can proceed because you will be the one with wide open armor and at risk of losing your armament.

Even if they overheat while you are employing the poor tactic of shooting legs, they will have gotten a full burn on whatever part they wanted, when they pop back up the next shot shreds off a component instead of grazing across good armor. At most you get a leg, while they get a kill and still have full weapon power.

Edited by sycocys, 29 April 2015 - 09:47 AM.

[luxebo]

sycocys, on 29 April 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

A commando can brawl anything. It's not light v light - its learning your positioning angles in a humanoid mech that is weak enough to go down fast and show you exactly the points you are messing up at.
And a Stormcrow regardless of the front/rear armor is still vastly quicker to disarm at the side torsos, because those are the only hit boxes it has that aren't wonky - zomg they turned and gave your their weaker yet back armor?!?!?!
---
Concerning that 4sp built your weak points are your srm6's and your lack of heat sinks. Even with artemis srm6s don't converge until past 150-170m so most of your damage ends up being wasted (especially with the quirk). Srm4's with artemis are nearly pinpoint converged at 50m.
Put a 235 in that thing and srm4s with artemis, and fill up with heat sinks. Once you are running an effective build you'll better understand why shooting at legs with it is a pointless battle.

....

I said I'm not talking about lights at all in this discussion. They can brawl but they are still lights, and their role is to harass or defend the slower mechs in most if not all cases.

Legs are always shot at in CW for a reason. A legged Stormcrow can allow me breathing room to get out and poke with MLs, risking no further damage. Also, notice in comp play unless a specific mech is there legs are always the main main target. Almost always aim legs unless you know you can finish one whole torso before they notice from behind, or if you are engaging directly you should aim legs so they don't outpace you (since they have better speed.)

If you are fighting at 50 meters against a Stormcrow with 8 (16 after two salvos in quick succession) - versus 12 and 24, only 6 missiles away from their alpha, their 30 missiles (double TWO salvos of the 4SP) will be able to disarm you quickly, along with the 3-2 punch for heat cooling (still doing the same amount of damage with no drawbacks except an extra half a second of facetime). 170 m is still a bad place to brawl, so maybe 200-230/240 would be safer + maybe cover yourself.

Heat is a nonissue with quirks + the amount of cover on most maps (which is reliable in a brawl, almost necessary in all cases.) But removing the 275 to a 235 is drastically cutting your speed, even though the Stormcrow can outpace you anyways by at least 10 kph.

[luxebo]

Dawnstealer, on 29 April 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Listen to Khama: he is wise in the ways brawling and Steinerisms.

The range or damage disadvantage at long range is actually quite nigh, especially with STK-4Ns, HBK-GIs, SHD-2Ks, RVN-2Xs, etc on the field.

sycocys, on 29 April 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Explained it before, you must have skipped over that post.

Recap: The only time legs should be the focus on anything over a light mech is when 11 are focusing to stop a generator rush.
Additional note - that is not a brawling situation, that is intercepting mechs that are running past you with no intention to fight unless legged.
Ceding the fire angles is when you stay locked/focused on a bad one giving your opponent the choice and control over what firing angles are being used in your encounter.
Basically put - you are giving them the control over your brawl, willingly and intentionally.
You start firing at their legs in a brawl - they have open season on you because you are not forcing them to do anything but move their legs - that means they get to choose not only where to shoot you - but also dictates how you can proceed because you will be the one with wide open armor and at risk of losing your armament.
Even if they overheat while you are employing the poor tactic of shooting legs, they will have gotten a full burn on whatever part they wanted, when they pop back up the next shot shreds off a component instead of grazing across good armor. At most you get a leg, while they get a kill and still have full weapon power.

If you think legging is a poor tactic, then you have no idea how badly a 106 kph turn all the way to a lowly FIFTEEN kph would change a brawl. You would almost always win by the time you leg him.

BTW, their leg hitbox isn't ONLY their legs, it's also their HIP. A 4SP is INSANELY easy to disarm btw, as those torsos stick out like two sore thumbs. Stormcrows have no one place that could be easy meat, while 4SPs are pretty obvious to hit there. Stormcrows are best when against their legs, but I'm not saying ONLY aim legs, for stuff like the Timber, it's best to aim CT, and for stuff like the Griffin, it's best to hit the legs since it is very thin from the side and hitting it's side arm is not great.

Brawling isn't straight up in your face, if you're not using cover in brawling, it's not a great idea to do that in the first place.

Oh and 4SPs are not great at all in a brawl, more or less they are pretty good at brawling something not meant to brawl (LRM boat, big snipers, etc), but something like the GRF-2N can just run all over any 50 tonner brawler with better speed, WAY better shielding, etc etc etc until you realize that 2N is the best in a brawl. 4Gs, 4Ps, etc etc etc also can knife fight, but the 2N is literally the best brawling option against a Stormcrow.

Edit: Are we good now? I can bring in video evidence if I can find some since many upper level tourneys are solely based on aiming for legs.

Edited by luxebo, 29 April 2015 - 06:35 PM.

[sycocys]

Pretty sure you are thinking of every hunchback but the 4sp, but I saw your loadout and understand why you can't be effective with it so it's really pointless to continue, because if that's how you load out your brawlers you are going to have a terrible time in any of them and come to the conclusion Clans are op.

[Thorqemada]

Fought a Mad Dog armed with 6xSRM6 and 2 ERML - it was already damaged and had 2 yellow no armor ST - i put several MLs and PPCs into it and than i was dead and it run still around a tad more yellow than b4.
It was faster than me so i could not escape and when it was close my PPC were worthless but i still had my 4xML and they did notinhg to it despite me hitting its "disadvantegous" ST Hitboxes.

Clans dictate the combat range for all weightclasses aside of Lights and good pilots do what the best range is for them as they have ususaly the initiative in their Clan Mechs.

Edited by Thorqemada, 30 April 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[luxebo]

sycocys, on 30 April 2015 - 02:40 AM, said:

Pretty sure you are thinking of every hunchback but the 4sp, but I saw your loadout and understand why you can't be effective with it so it's really pointless to continue, because if that's how you load out your brawlers you are going to have a terrible time in any of them and come to the conclusion Clans are op.

My loadout is perfectly fine, getting 400+ in most matches. There's really nothing wrong with that HBK build except that it may run hot, it has speed, it has enough ammo, it has enough firepower, and heat can be countered easily by taking cover.

My other HBKs generally do better though, and as much as the 4SP is fun, it's not as great in CW where mid range and long range are best except on Grim and maybe Emerald. 4G is the best of the HBKs in close combat (not counting GI as that's far far range). 4P is also fun but it's not as great as 4G etc due to range + heavy heavy heat compared to the 4SP. 4J is LRMs and 4H is meh compared to the 4G, so it all shows and goes.

I'm not saying Clans OP ermahgawd but I'm saying that it's futile to brawl in close combat against Clanners that can do much better. Long range is actually a plus for us, as our best longer ranged mechs can easily sustain damage and punch it back in in most games longer ranged. Close range brawling is our detriment generally, as when everyone takes a brawler wave, it generally ends to a terrible end against better Clan brawling. Same as mid range but we can all agree Clans better at mid range. Nobody agrees that Clans are better than IS brawling, but in most cases, it's proven that it's not good to brawl against Clan speed, godlike hitboxes/mobility, and still plenty of firepower.

[sycocys]

The problem is brawling without sustained dps, especially against clans, not being able to sustain it is where you lose the majority of your advantage.

[luxebo]

sycocys, on 01 May 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

The problem is brawling without sustained dps, especially against clans, not being able to sustain it is where you lose the majority of your advantage.

I actually disagree with this one; most if not all of my brawls depend on just whoever has the best alpha and whoever can take cover/has better mobility/more speed wins. Taking cover increases survivability and lessens heat, along with letting you prepare for a brawl (sesmic, etc). Mobility and speed generally wins most forms of brawling except a really hard close range fight, which then it's who has the most survivability and alpha while having decent mobility and speed.

Dps is for mid range fighting from what I see in most matches that end up being mid range trade games. Long range is pretty balanced, with both sides with a strong mech to play on, along side the fact that long range is rarely a good covering fight, so dps is also great there, though trading games is where dps is the best option.

Fast firing mechs survive better in mid range or long range, but in the case of the 4SP or Huginn, it's dependent on either sneaky attacking (which tend to favor mobility, cover, and speed, therefore the 4SP needs at least 90 kph to keep up in a ton of cases, and heat can be solved by taking cover). Both mechs are niche, but Huginn has better mobility, which favors it over the 4SP. Sustaining damage is less useful when in close combat, since generally brawls end up being a take cover and alpha match, with a bit of heat issues.

[Crockdaddy]

My unit excelled at pop tarting ... and sniping so have at it. Bring back the pop tarts then watch the river of rage start to truly flow again.

[Nightshade24]

the Hunchback 4P is a far superior brawler to the Nova Prime / S configs with and without severe modification to the chassis.

I know that much.


PS I give you credit for knowing the difference between a brawler and juggernaut. Have a cookie.

[luxebo]

Nightshade24, on 02 May 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

the Hunchback 4P is a far superior brawler to the Nova Prime / S configs with and without severe modification to the chassis.
I know that much.
PS I give you credit for knowing the difference between a brawler and juggernaut. Have a cookie.

Ty for zee cookie, I remember that we talked about roles in TT vs MWO at one point.

I agree that the 4P is stronger than the Nova (in most cases, but sometimes those extra couple ML/SPL help), but it is weaker than to the Stormcrow. SRMs are just strong in a brawl, so it's hard to go lasers in a brawl due to even more heat than SRMs while SRMs are generally stronger. But if it's laser vomit at close range, for sure the IS wins that one in most cases, sometimes CMPL helps but really at range is where they do more than at close range brawling.

[Nightshade24]

luxebo, on 02 May 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

Ty for zee cookie, I remember that we talked about roles in TT vs MWO at one point.

I agree that the 4P is stronger than the Nova (in most cases, but sometimes those extra couple ML/SPL help), but it is weaker than to the Stormcrow. SRMs are just strong in a brawl, so it's hard to go lasers in a brawl due to even more heat than SRMs while SRMs are generally stronger. But if it's laser vomit at close range, for sure the IS wins that one in most cases, sometimes CMPL helps but really at range is where they do more than at close range brawling.

Well from memory the Hunchback 4SP can do duel SRM 6's at rapid fire rate which if it doesn't out damage the stormcrow, can keep the enemy rocking' and due to the unique hitbox for a hunchie. It can do an XL engine.

Stormcrow is a touchie subject, but the AC 20 hunchback and AC 10 hunchie really over powers the Stormcrow B (UAC 20 one) and the C (LBX 10 one) .

Personawlly I think the IS can do nearly anything due to quirks, they have some mechs that out range every Clan mech possible, quite a few that out run and has higher armour due to quirks, has rapid fire weapons (some cases tooo much rapid fire... grid iron, dragon, I'm looking at you)and so on.

Clans? Nothing really making the Direwolf worthwhile to use LRM's or to make it have a non meta cheese build (IE anything with an AC , UAC, or LBX. Excluding AC/UAC 5, however this has a bit of an issue with me)

There is quite a few problems with Clan tech which makes me sad =c I would like to see a day when I take some mechs of a certain role for eg a Sniper Adder, LRM's on a direwolf, or a Ballistic stormcrow without being the laughing stock of the team as everyone runs in with cheese.


I do think we need to lower some quirks and exchange them with some others. For eg lower the dragon 1N's gattling-AC5 and instead gives it the ability to have slightly more ammo per ton, slightly increased zoom, and a light-CASE like quirk (say ammo explosion will happen / deals 10% damage less?)

I'm getting off topic here... I do think some IS mechs can technically 'out brawl'.

But it's CW, literally everything is valid but situational and requires X and Y and X2 to peform well.

Instead of telling people to stop brawling, it should be instead an insight to how to brawl in CW and such. That would be how I will go about it.

[hargneux]

luxebo, on 25 April 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

Have you ever heard of chainfire and SSRMs? If you say OMG ECM then that's due to no GRF-2N for c-bills.

LOL. Good luck with that. By the time you get off your second full volley my Griffin will have take a leg off your stormcrow and then I am off looking for more legs to collect while my teammates finish you off.

[luxebo]

hargneux, on 02 May 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

LOL. Good luck with that. By the time you get off your second full volley my Griffin will have take a leg off your stormcrow and then I am off looking for more legs to collect while my teammates finish you off.

I meant 3-2 punch of SSRMs not so much chainfire, and I also said not including 2N (though 3M is quite good against the stormcrow).

Nightshade24, on 02 May 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Well from memory the Hunchback 4SP can do duel SRM 6's at rapid fire rate which if it doesn't out damage the stormcrow, can keep the enemy rocking' and due to the unique hitbox for a hunchie. It can do an XL engine.
Stormcrow is a touchie subject, but the AC 20 hunchback and AC 10 hunchie really over powers the Stormcrow B (UAC 20 one) and the C (LBX 10 one) .
Personawlly I think the IS can do nearly anything due to quirks, they have some mechs that out range every Clan mech possible, quite a few that out run and has higher armour due to quirks, has rapid fire weapons (some cases tooo much rapid fire... grid iron, dragon, I'm looking at you)and so on.
Clans? Nothing really making the Direwolf worthwhile to use LRM's or to make it have a non meta cheese build (IE anything with an AC , UAC, or LBX. Excluding AC/UAC 5, however this has a bit of an issue with me)
There is quite a few problems with Clan tech which makes me sad =c I would like to see a day when I take some mechs of a certain role for eg a Sniper Adder, LRM's on a direwolf, or a Ballistic stormcrow without being the laughing stock of the team as everyone runs in with cheese.
I do think we need to lower some quirks and exchange them with some others. For eg lower the dragon 1N's gattling-AC5 and instead gives it the ability to have slightly more ammo per ton, slightly increased zoom, and a light-CASE like quirk (say ammo explosion will happen / deals 10% damage less?)
I'm getting off topic here... I do think some IS mechs can technically 'out brawl'.
But it's CW, literally everything is valid but situational and requires X and Y and X2 to peform well.
Instead of telling people to stop brawling, it should be instead an insight to how to brawl in CW and such. That would be how I will go about it.

ACs on the Clan side need a buff; I agree. LBX20 + SRMs might actually be better than AC10, but AC20 is better than LBX20 (assuming respective 4H and 4G.) AC10s ain't that great either, though LBX20 + SRMs I've seen as a bigger SRM with less damage.

I think we might need to redesign the GI/Dragon and give it more hardpoints + better scaling in place of quirks. Eh, seems like PGI just wants quirks instead. Both are glass cannons though, aim the arm/torso the firepower is gone.

I dunno tbh, as of right now I'm not really wanting a brawl in CW since it almost always loses due to positioning + Clan SRMs/SSRMs. I would like more options in brawls and maybe for example different SRMs, different lasers, etc.

Maybe you/anyone else can do a guide on CW brawling? I'm struggling overall on that so I wouldn't be so much help on that. (I could one day produce a pugging/group que brawl guide, though once again I wouldn't be 100% accurate, though I will definitely be more accurate on that.)

Edited by luxebo, 04 May 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Nightshade24]

luxebo, on 04 May 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

I meant 3-2 punch of SSRMs not so much chainfire, and I also said not including 2N (though 3M is quite good against the stormcrow).


ACs on the Clan side need a buff; I agree. LBX20 + SRMs might actually be better than AC10, but AC20 is better than LBX20 (assuming respective 4H and 4G.) AC10s ain't that great either, though LBX20 + SRMs I've seen as a bigger SRM with less damage.

I think we might need to redesign the GI/Dragon and give it more hardpoints + better scaling in place of quirks. Eh, seems like PGI just wants quirks instead. Both are glass cannons though, aim the arm/torso the firepower is gone.

I dunno tbh, as of right now I'm not really wanting a brawl in CW since it almost always loses due to positioning + Clan SRMs/SSRMs. I would like more options in brawls and maybe for example different SRMs, different lasers, etc.

Maybe you/anyone else can do a guide on CW brawling? I'm struggling overall on that so I wouldn't be so much help on that. (I could one day produce a pugging/group que brawl guide, though once again I wouldn't be 100% accurate, though I will definitely be more accurate on that.)

I would say they need quirks, buffs not really.
Also I personally see lots of value in the LBX like the similar heat, crit chance, and the lower heat (also no ghost heat, so 6 LBX 5 on a direwolf for EG can alpha strike all day everyday!)

However I think improving the range abilities of it and having a slight buff for clans since it is a bit hindered (it's main advantage came from the fact it can switch ammo types in mid game, this is atm cancled. For eg the "LBX 5" can turn into a "AC 5" when ever it wants. this is why the LBX's for clans isn't lighter then the normal UAC's.)


but yea, I know a thing or two of Clan brawling. I got a few clan mechs with LBX's, Streaks, SRM's, small/ medium lasers, etc.
As well as other things along close range combat.

I wounder if there should be a quirk that reduces clan AC/ UAC spread (like they fire in those busts more faster

Edit: I am still a noob in this forums. I rarely make threads and when I do it's suggestions and I learned that that part of the forum is ignored.

Edited by Nightshade24, 04 May 2015 - 02:11 AM.

[Setun]

luxebo, on 01 May 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

I actually disagree with this one; most if not all of my brawls depend on just whoever has the best alpha and whoever can take cover/has better mobility/more speed wins. Taking cover increases survivability and lessens heat, along with letting you prepare for a brawl (sesmic, etc). Mobility and speed generally wins most forms of brawling except a really hard close range fight, which then it's who has the most survivability and alpha while having decent mobility and speed.

Dps is for mid range fighting from what I see in most matches that end up being mid range trade games. Long range is pretty balanced, with both sides with a strong mech to play on, along side the fact that long range is rarely a good covering fight, so dps is also great there, though trading games is where dps is the best option.

Fast firing mechs survive better in mid range or long range, but in the case of the 4SP or Huginn, it's dependent on either sneaky attacking (which tend to favor mobility, cover, and speed, therefore the 4SP needs at least 90 kph to keep up in a ton of cases, and heat can be solved by taking cover). Both mechs are niche, but Huginn has better mobility, which favors it over the 4SP. Sustaining damage is less useful when in close combat, since generally brawls end up being a take cover and alpha match, with a bit of heat issues.

What you're describing isn't brawling, that's knife fighting.

[sycocys]

Setun, on 04 May 2015 - 02:55 AM, said:

What you're describing isn't brawling, that's knife fighting.

Yeah, maybe that's where our difference lies lux. You are doing the poke and trade thing, where brawling is more constant and active engagement. This is a place that most IS mechs actually shine in part due to their limited hardpoint selections, but also because the ghost heat plays into our favor much more.

You do want to engage clan mechs from a distance to coerce them into building up heat as you approach, but once you are engaged in brawling the last thing you want to do is to let them cool down that's why better heat efficiency is more important than a slightly better looking alpha.

You speed requirement is tied directly to your peek a boo play, if your plan is to hide every time you heat goes up then that's what you need to live because 70-80% of your time will be spent going in/out of hard/full cover. On the other hand if you slow it down and sustain your dps, you can make much better use of soft/partial cover to soak shots and keep the pressure on to force your opponent into bad situations.

I'd highly recommend checking out the spread difference between srm4s and 6s, even with artemis the 6s are quite wide until 150-170m so until that range you'll being spreading your damage out a la lrms or missing with 2-3 out of each launcher, wasting ammo and heat. That is the primary reason I mention srm4s ability to pinpoint at 50m, its not that you'll always engage at that range its that you are essentially firing an ac8.6 (or pair of them), and wasting no ammo or heat.

The srm6 is nice, and the cd quirk on the 4sp is decent, but the 4s allow you to tear through the armor location you want to tear through. That kind of accuracy makes all the difference when you are doing active brawling. The only places I would use srm6s on anything is if it was in packs of 3-4+ and on a heavy or larger where you can afford a bit less ammo efficiency. On medium mechs you need every shot of your 2-3 tons of ammo to count to the fullest extent possible.

-- just peeking at smurfy here, and in the case of something like a stormcrow - a st has 52 armor, say 42 front and 10 rear for a probable setup. This means 1 round of 5ml and 2 srm4s punch all of that st armor and you are on the internals, second round pounds the other side (because he's twisting the one you just opened away) and now you have a crow that isn't thinking so much about facing you up no matter what its armament is. With the cd modules I believe you are clocking that shredding at 2.7 seconds from full (2.8-2.9 if you count travel time) and you've basically taken that mech out of the battle.

If you want to stick to your legs first plan (I still don't recommend it), you can open up both legs, or entirely drop one without wasting half your missiles.

Edited by sycocys, 04 May 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[B0oN]

So, after 4 pages of going back and forth, what can we agree in here ?

Both sides can dish out damage pretty horrifyingly fast if the mech is built well and played to it´s intended role .

Equilibrium reached, I guess .

Carry on

[luxebo]

sycocys, on 04 May 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Yeah, maybe that's where our difference lies lux. You are doing the poke and trade thing, where brawling is more constant and active engagement. This is a place that most IS mechs actually shine in part due to their limited hardpoint selections, but also because the ghost heat plays into our favor much more.

You do want to engage clan mechs from a distance to coerce them into building up heat as you approach, but once you are engaged in brawling the last thing you want to do is to let them cool down that's why better heat efficiency is more important than a slightly better looking alpha.

You speed requirement is tied directly to your peek a boo play, if your plan is to hide every time you heat goes up then that's what you need to live because 70-80% of your time will be spent going in/out of hard/full cover. On the other hand if you slow it down and sustain your dps, you can make much better use of soft/partial cover to soak shots and keep the pressure on to force your opponent into bad situations.

I'd highly recommend checking out the spread difference between srm4s and 6s, even with artemis the 6s are quite wide until 150-170m so until that range you'll being spreading your damage out a la lrms or missing with 2-3 out of each launcher, wasting ammo and heat. That is the primary reason I mention srm4s ability to pinpoint at 50m, its not that you'll always engage at that range its that you are essentially firing an ac8.6 (or pair of them), and wasting no ammo or heat.

The srm6 is nice, and the cd quirk on the 4sp is decent, but the 4s allow you to tear through the armor location you want to tear through. That kind of accuracy makes all the difference when you are doing active brawling. The only places I would use srm6s on anything is if it was in packs of 3-4+ and on a heavy or larger where you can afford a bit less ammo efficiency. On medium mechs you need every shot of your 2-3 tons of ammo to count to the fullest extent possible.

-- just peeking at smurfy here, and in the case of something like a stormcrow - a st has 52 armor, say 42 front and 10 rear for a probable setup. This means 1 round of 5ml and 2 srm4s punch all of that st armor and you are on the internals, second round pounds the other side (because he's twisting the one you just opened away) and now you have a crow that isn't thinking so much about facing you up no matter what its armament is. With the cd modules I believe you are clocking that shredding at 2.7 seconds from full (2.8-2.9 if you count travel time) and you've basically taken that mech out of the battle.

If you want to stick to your legs first plan (I still don't recommend it), you can open up both legs, or entirely drop one without wasting half your missiles.

Maybe you are correct on this. I think of brawling generally less of an all in push but more shoot and scoot at very close ranges, which happens a ton (and disfavors the IS).

But when we are considering all in brawling, I think in most situations IS will actually win if we factor in strong Atlases, Victors, Banshees, King Crabs, and Stalkers. The Dire Wolves can't really outbrawl them, and Timbers are quite strong, but can be outalphaed/utilitied with ECMs, better range, etc in the brawl.

However, it's rare that a full push happens, and not really the parameters I'm talking of. Generally CW is tonnage limited, so bringing an IS assault brawler is a real toughie and can end badly. CW relies much more on fast brawling, not head on since map layout is favoring mid range in most terrains. Stormcrows and Timbers are strong, but when GRF-2N is out, we will have something that can make them run for their money. But until then, it's a rough one.

The ST armor of a Stormcrow is NEVER an autohit, unlike the hip, which can induce leg damage, which is why I aim legs a lot. Also, aiming at the hip is best with SRM6s, as all 6 most likely will hit it if you are careful in the aim (which 4s will also hit and more precisely but 6s are gonna core it out a bit faster).

Most likely I won't hide for very long, and if I'm hiding for 70-80% of the time, it's likely happening even worse on their side with heat. The slightly looking alpha is pretty much double if you are using 4s, 16 in comparison to a full 30 or 36 missiles in one or two shots for Clans.

Well, each man to his own. Both of us has different terms of brawling, both of us have different set-ups, but if it works, then we can work each's strategy to beat the Clanners down.

[Nightshade24]

luxebo, on 04 May 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

-snip-

Brawling: generally a medium to heavy mech (<=stereotypically) going faster then most other classes. (Juggernaut, Sniper, LRM boat, etc) but slower then the others (scout, skirmisher, striker, harasser, etc)

This is a mech with some long range weapons (say a single PPC or large laser, or a few LRM's, ie Centurion, [X] Ballistic and LRM 10), but majority of firepower is focused for close up brawling and close range combat.


An atlas, King crab, or stalker fail to be a brawler as they are too heavy and can not catch up to an average brawler like a centurion or a hunchback.

These mechs here (minus Stalkers stock configurations) are juggernauts, basicly the step lower, worse range combat (to ratio) with less speed and more armour and firepower, ie atlas with a LRM 20, SRM 6, 4 medium laser, AC 20.


Now there is the verb term which is different which basicly means "close up fighting" in short for BT.

So a Skirmisher and Juggernaut can brawl but they are not brawlers.



These fine but fuzzy lines are one reason why I like having my mechs follow there traditional roles to have this fine diversity in this game. This is why a firestarter, jenner, wolfhound, or panther will never be the same to me even though all are 35 ton mechs with lots of E hardpoints.