81 replies to this topic

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Dawnstealer, on 28 April 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Agreed - Clans need...something. As an IS-specific player, I'll leave that to Clan players to decide.

As a Clan player, what do you think about the idea of balancing the weapons with range (for Clans) vs damage (for IS)? So Clans would have beams that had a very gradual fall-off and a much longer top range, vs IS having a shorter range with a steep fall-off, but a higher (hotter?) damage output.

I really like the idea of asymmetric balance, but I think the difficulty of getting full burn onto specific parts of a target at long range makes that specific idea impractical. If you're a good player, rolling damage from lasers at range and hugging cover is pretty trivial. I think if that was the route that was going to be taken, perhaps give clans enhanced imaging and implement it in such a way that it makes it easier to use lasers at long range. A beefed up version of heat vision/zoom maybe? That's literally the first idea that comes to mind though.

If anything, I think the better way to implement your idea would be asymmetry between heat and range. Both clan and IS lasers would do the same damage, but clan lasers would have a shorter burn time, longer range and run very hot. While IS weapons would have a longer burn time, shorter range and run cool. The idea being that the weapons are equally powerful, but the clan ones are only really practical to use at range and the IS ones are only practical to use close up, meaning that the game becomes one of positioning. The IS have to get close and the clans have to stay back. In this instance, the clan weapon would need a shorter burn time due to the issue I mentioned above of aiming difficulty at long ranges. There can't be a skill gap between the two approaches because then they're not asymmetrically balanced. And, this idea neatly matches he fluff of clanners hating close combat.

Edited by Senor Cataclysmo, 28 April 2015 - 11:53 PM.

[DoctorDetroit]

More back story, meaning, and fluff for each battle.

[Dawnstealer]

Senor Cataclysmo, on 28 April 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

I really like the idea of asymmetric balance, but I think the difficulty of getting full burn onto specific parts of a target at long range makes that specific idea impractical. If you're a good player, rolling damage from lasers at range and hugging cover is pretty trivial. I think if that was the route that was going to be taken, perhaps give clans enhanced imaging and implement it in such a way that it makes it easier to use lasers at long range. A beefed up version of heat vision/zoom maybe? That's literally the first idea that comes to mind though.

If anything, I think the better way to implement your idea would be asymmetry between heat and range. Both clan and IS lasers would do the same damage, but clan lasers would have a shorter burn time, longer range and run very hot. While IS weapons would have a longer burn time, shorter range and run cool. The idea being that the weapons are equally powerful, but the clan ones are only really practical to use at range and the IS ones are only practical to use close up, meaning that the game becomes one of positioning. The IS have to get close and the clans have to stay back. In this instance, the clan weapon would need a shorter burn time due to the issue I mentioned above of aiming difficulty at long ranges. There can't be a skill gap between the two approaches because then they're not asymmetrically balanced. And, this idea neatly matches he fluff of clanners hating close combat.

Having the zoom module be an initial part of a Clan tree (a basic/core unlock, in other words) would make a lot of sense with this form of balance. Also, with the balance being "Damage vs Range," you could drop the beam times back to even. One of the problems Clans have now is that the beam rate is so long that they end up painting across their target, which is part of the current balancing.

DoctorDetroit, on 29 April 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:

More back story, meaning, and fluff for each battle.

That would be awesome, and I'd love to have some fluff on each planet, but that kind of writing takes a lot of time. I think I said it somewhere up in that wall of text, but I'd consider that to be in a game that's gone Gold. Even though they pulled the Beta tags off a while back, I think anyone who plays this game would agree that it's a promising work in progress, but still in its infancy.

It's getting there, though, and I'm still playing it and enjoying it.

[Dawnstealer]

I'd think something like this (or maybe a more parabolic drop?):



So Clan lasers would gradually fall off, IS lasers would do stronger damage at close range and then rapidly lose strength out to range.

Edited by Dawnstealer, 29 April 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[Phex]

Verry nice Ideas!
Suport them all.
+1

[Tigerwolf]

I wonder if PGI is reading or taking notes on this thread or just going blind.

[Varvar86]

so sweet dreams so like it anyway. Most of all I agree with this "arena feel". 50% time you sitting in isolated personnel hangar, and 50% time get pointless random drops with no common sense and goal. CW gave us some sort of starting point of some big and wonderful universe, and I hope that someday it becomes more than anonymous queues represented by cold numbers and soaked through by “forever alone” feeling. Need more social aspect, need more life in “ingame” maps, etc.

[Dawnstealer]

Varvar86, on 29 April 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

so sweet dreams so like it anyway. Most of all I agree with this "arena feel". 50% time you sitting in isolated personnel hangar, and 50% time get pointless random drops with no common sense and goal. CW gave us some sort of starting point of some big and wonderful universe, and I hope that someday it becomes more than anonymous queues represented by cold numbers and soaked through by “forever alone” feeling. Need more social aspect, need more life in “ingame” maps, etc.

I honestly think this is coming, but it's not a priority. And I think that PGI is still trying to find a magical balance before they start filling in the universe with fluff. But like you, yeah: the maps just don't feel lived in. There's not enough maps. The maps are getting better, but these things are still "Half-Life"-levels of map design rather than competitive with the norm from nowadays.

[Apnu]

Dawnstealer, on 28 April 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

A game that did it brilliantly was Joint Operations. The games would go until one team had conquered all the spawn points. Yes - they would go until one team actually won completely. Sometimes games would be over in five minutes, sometimes they would run days

Definitely not suggesting that, just that it led to a lot of "push the attack, or consolidate?" And it was a genuine question - push too far, too fast, and you'd find yourself alone and surrounded by enemies. Then you'd be wiped out and, while waiting to spawn, the enemy push would drive back your now-shorthanded team.


Someone will always pick up the mantle. It just gives players an option of something else that's cool to do. You can go with heavy ammo-based builds because you can always go punch the crap out of something if you run out. Some mechs (Banshee) were holy terrors in melee and they could be given (tree-skill unlockable, natch) quirks to reflect that. Someone turns your armless mech into a stick? You can still kick them. Sure it's not much, but it's something.

And melee is such a huge part of BT lore:

Liked because the hatchetman is hella sexy.

[Dawnstealer]

Apnu, on 29 April 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Liked because the hatchetman is hella sexy.

OMG RIGHT??????

[Mirkk Defwode]

Dawnstealer, on 29 April 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

I honestly think this is coming, but it's not a priority. And I think that PGI is still trying to find a magical balance before they start filling in the universe with fluff. But like you, yeah: the maps just don't feel lived in. There's not enough maps. The maps are getting better, but these things are still "Half-Life"-levels of map design rather than competitive with the norm from nowadays.

I personally think the maps aren't organic enough. Most table top maps didn't have elements of the environment that couldn't be scaled. For the most part this was also true in MW2-4 if you were good with jump jets. We have maps here that are very much funneling the user into specific spaces to artificially create "hot zones" that lead to fairly stagnant combat, or repetitive if you want to look at it that way. Most fights end up being very similar experiences to previous fights on that map.

I point at the inspiration for these maps as being the MOBA maps seen in DOTA, and LoL. These have the specific "lanes" that you're intended to push up to assault the oppositions base, the primary concern with this is that those games have mechanics to stun, push back, or eliminate the opposition giving a tactical edge. MWO mechanics aren't built with this in mind and have far more variable components.

[Dawnstealer]

Mirkk Defwode, on 29 April 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

I personally think the maps aren't organic enough. Most table top maps didn't have elements of the environment that couldn't be scaled. For the most part this was also true in MW2-4 if you were good with jump jets. We have maps here that are very much funneling the user into specific spaces to artificially create "hot zones" that lead to fairly stagnant combat, or repetitive if you want to look at it that way. Most fights end up being very similar experiences to previous fights on that map.

I point at the inspiration for these maps as being the MOBA maps seen in DOTA, and LoL. These have the specific "lanes" that you're intended to push up to assault the oppositions base, the primary concern with this is that those games have mechanics to stun, push back, or eliminate the opposition giving a tactical edge. MWO mechanics aren't built with this in mind and have far more variable components.

You're right and it's specifically designed that way. That's not a mistake with map design: it's a feature, and Russ, etal have confirmed this. They feel the goal is to funnel teams towards each other so they fight. It makes sense, but the cost is that the maps all feel like arenas where the action is being controlled and there are a few obvious places that are tactically superior to hold and fight over.

The maps that Cryengine can produce are amazing, but a lot of the MWO maps are wasted space. Ideally, all points of a map should be valid or at least space you could reasonably expect to find a mech in. But you look at the "heat" maps of travel on Smurfy and that's rarely the case.

But maps are another topic. This one is more about balance and things CW needs to make it work better. I agree that the maps don't feel like a lived in world, and feel more like arenas. That is a problem that needs to be solved in later maps.

[Wildstreak]

Dawnstealer, on 28 April 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Clans shouldn't have artillery...come on.

[SovietKoshka]

wow, all this stuff is great except for one problem.... "minimally viable product"

what PGI does not seem to understand, is that vast amounts of dosh only come with time and effort, and the games that get the most money, are fun, in-depth, and well supported, AND THEY ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT "MINIMALLY VIABLE PRODUCTS"

I hope some one sees this, i hope someone cares, but the way things stand today, it does not seem likely.
I love Battle Tech, and i really like MWO but PGI has put in to little effort and expected too much money for that effort.

But i suppose only time will tell...until then i wish you luck with your ideas sir, they seem like good ones.

[Apnu]

Tigerwolf, on 29 April 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

I wonder if PGI is reading or taking notes on this thread or just going blind.

I have tweeted this thread to @CM_TinaBenoit and @russ_bullock. I hope they're checking in. This is a great thread and has no real d-bags. Its breath taking seeing a calm rational discussion on these forums.

[Dawnstealer]

SovietKoshka, on 29 April 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

wow, all this stuff is great except for one problem.... "minimally viable product"

what PGI does not seem to understand, is that vast amounts of dosh only come with time and effort, and the games that get the most money, are fun, in-depth, and well supported, AND THEY ARE MOST CERTAINLY NOT "MINIMALLY VIABLE PRODUCTS"

I hope some one sees this, i hope someone cares, but the way things stand today, it does not seem likely.
I love Battle Tech, and i really like MWO but PGI has put in to little effort and expected too much money for that effort.

But i suppose only time will tell...until then i wish you luck with your ideas sir, they seem like good ones.

I guess it depends on how you/PGI define "viable." At the moment, I'm giving PGI a pass because I feel like this game is nowhere near a finished product, and I don't think PGI thinks it is, either. They get a lot of flak for it, but I don't feel Russ is washing his hands of MWO at all, and I don't think the game will continue "as is" with minimal tweaks.

The end goal will be to make money off of this game. If the money being pulled in is less than the headaches that an extremely vocal community can bring, it might get dumped in favor of a more profitable idea.

I don't want that to happen because I like playing Mechwarrior and want to see it keep going. But I also want it to feel right. Right now, it feels raw and unfinished.

[SovietKoshka]

Dawnstealer, on 29 April 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I guess it depends on how you/PGI define "viable." At the moment, I'm giving PGI a pass because I feel like this game is nowhere near a finished product, and I don't think PGI thinks it is, either. They get a lot of flak for it, but I don't feel Russ is washing his hands of MWO at all, and I don't think the game will continue "as is" with minimal tweaks.

The end goal will be to make money off of this game. If the money being pulled in is less than the headaches that an extremely vocal community can bring, it might get dumped in favor of a more profitable idea.

I don't want that to happen because I like playing Mechwarrior and want to see it keep going. But I also want it to feel right. Right now, it feels raw and unfinished.

right but its been in beta as a "minimally viable product" for what, two years now?
The real problem PGI has is that easy money mentality. there is no such thing as easy money, or quick money, everything needs time and effort in order to be profitable. and in theory BT should be one of the most profitable F2P IPs due to its somewhat rabid fan-base.

but PGI managed to get rid of A LOT of their goodwill, and A LOT of the hardcore fans because of their easy money mentality, and if they continue to do so PGI will cease to exist as a company.

[Mirkk Defwode]

SovietKoshka, on 29 April 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

...

I understand your frustration. I also agree that the overall business plan and development of the title isn't ideal.

Please lets remain on point for suggestions to improve the title at it's mechanics and depth approaches beyond just content as the subject.

[Dawnstealer]

SovietKoshka, on 29 April 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

right but its been in beta as a "minimally viable product" for what, two years now?
The real problem PGI has is that easy money mentality. there is no such thing as easy money, or quick money, everything needs time and effort in order to be profitable. and in theory BT should be one of the most profitable F2P IPs due to its somewhat rabid fan-base.

but PGI managed to get rid of A LOT of their goodwill, and A LOT of the hardcore fans because of their easy money mentality, and if they continue to do so PGI will cease to exist as a company.

Again, I get the frustration, but this thread is not for bitching about PGI - there's plenty of threads for that. This is about constructive ideas to improve the experience. Trust me, I could easily go full snark on this post, but I actually want this game to succeed long-term, and the only thing vague complaining will bring about is PGI throwing in the towel and then waiting another decade or so for someone else to pick it up and (try to) run with it.

[Apnu]

Everything here screams: DEPTH!
Its pretty clear a lot of players desire more depth in the game, more immersion, more options, more everything.

In discussions on HHoD comms this comes up a lot. A lot of our older guys are dreaming of a logistics system in game. It would be awesome if we had that.

Think about it, a logistics system can ensure that premades have scheduled matches against each other. And if we had other game modes in CW (like conquest for resource gathering or other such things) we could kill time playing those games in a solo/small group queue, then suit up when the drop ships arrive on planet for the real deal. Maybe a series of 2 out of 3 Invasion/Counter attack.

IMO, that would make this game tops.