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Everything you never wanted to know about Joysticks



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#61 Mechteric

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:06 PM

View PostCyBerkut, on 12 December 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:


Just get rudder pedals that have toe brakes. With rudder pedals, when you push one, the other pulls back toward you... but the toe brakes are independant of that.

Alternatively, if you had pedals from a steering wheel, they would operate independantly from each other... but I'm not sure how readily you could program your software to react differently (jump jets) to both being pressed simultaneously.


I have the CH pedals, so its got both the toe brakes and the sliding axis. Currently I just use the sliding axis for turning since it behaves as a single axis and I haven't yet delved into how to get the two toe brakes to act as a single axis to use them for mech turning in Mech4/MWLL.

#62 Win44

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:31 PM

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16826100006

I opened up newegg after reading this thread got me thinking about new sticks. Take a look at the above item, neurohelmet mod anyone?

#63 Trogusaur

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 01:41 PM

PC-synced Xbox controller. :)

#64 macfarlane

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:15 AM

I used the whole Thrustmaster throttle, joystick and peddles set up the last time I played back in 1992-1996 on GEnie with MPBT. I'd heard that since then at the turn of the century that Thrustmaster products took a nose dive in quality?

I'm currently pondering the Logitech G940 set up with the playseat chair. I'm just curious how well made the gear is. I recall I used to get pretty rough on that stuff back in the day and I'd assume I'd get just as wound up now. lol Any one have any feed back on this set up?

Jim aka MacFarlane*GK*

#65 CyBerkut

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:51 AM

View Postcapperdeluxe, on 12 December 2011 - 01:06 PM, said:


I have the CH pedals, so its got both the toe brakes and the sliding axis. Currently I just use the sliding axis for turning since it behaves as a single axis and I haven't yet delved into how to get the two toe brakes to act as a single axis to use them for mech turning in Mech4/MWLL.


I can't think of any good reason to try to get the toe brakes to control turning (either the legs, or the torso). The toe brakes could be a pretty good means for actuating jump jets though.

#66 CyBerkut

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:57 AM

View PostWin44, on 12 December 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16826100006

I opened up newegg after reading this thread got me thinking about new sticks. Take a look at the above item, neurohelmet mod anyone?


That device has been out for quite awhile now. It IS interesting, and might eventually lead to something useful with more refinement and/or computing power. Based on the various user reviews posted, plus things I've seen elsewhere, I wouldn't try using it in a game online with other people. I can just see it now... the significant other starts chewing you out about taking out the trash... your mind thinks "$h!t, $cr#w th@t!" and your gauss rifle fires into the back armor of the teammate you're following!

#67 Win44

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 08:31 AM

View PostCyBerkut, on 13 December 2011 - 07:57 AM, said:


That device has been out for quite awhile now. It IS interesting, and might eventually lead to something useful with more refinement and/or computing power. Based on the various user reviews posted, plus things I've seen elsewhere, I wouldn't try using it in a game online with other people. I can just see it now... the significant other starts chewing you out about taking out the trash... your mind thinks "$h!t, $cr#w th@t!" and your gauss rifle fires into the back armor of the teammate you're following!



I was shocked when I first saw it, didnt believe that it was possible yet. I would love to try it though if only just to experience a random sneeze turning into a friendly fire alpha strike LOL.

#68 CyBerkut

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 08:39 AM

View Postmacfarlane, on 13 December 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

I used the whole Thrustmaster throttle, joystick and peddles set up the last time I played back in 1992-1996 on GEnie with MPBT. I'd heard that since then at the turn of the century that Thrustmaster products took a nose dive in quality?

I'm currently pondering the Logitech G940 set up with the playseat chair. I'm just curious how well made the gear is. I recall I used to get pretty rough on that stuff back in the day and I'd assume I'd get just as wound up now. lol Any one have any feed back on this set up?

Jim aka MacFarlane*GK*


Well... Thrustmaster is getting good reviews these days. The majority of the bad press they got in the past, it seemed to me, was over the Cougar high end HOTAS. Big bucks, and a number of serious users were disatisfied with the joystick gimbals, etc. A number of 3rd party mods showed up to address the gimbal system, or replace it with a force sensing setup. Thrustmaster has discontinued the Cougar HOTAS. Their new high end HOTAS is the Warthog. The old gimbal system of the Cougar is not there anymore. The Warthog has a ball in socket system, with Hall sensors instead of potentiometers. The overall sentiment of the combat flight sim community is that it is much better. On the low end, their T.16000M is well regarded as a stand alone joystick.

As for the Logitech G940, it would be interesting to hear what Paul has to say about it. Hopefully, he can share some thoughts without revealing any MWO secrets. In the combat flight sim community, it seems to be a mixed bag. People who wanted it for DCS:Blackshark wanted the Force Feedback for the trim system of the helicopter (motors would hold the stick in the "trimmed" position). For the demanding pilots, it turns out that the G940 does not do that (DCS:Blackshark trim) particularly well. To be fair, that probably wasn't Logitech's design target... but they haven't been reported to be particularly helpful in addressing the concern either.

Since I'm pontificating, I might as well expound upon the other big names... :)

CH Products continue to have a solid reputation, and just hold up exceeding well. They aren't as flashy, and still get a pretty good price, but the real beauty appears to be inside. About the only things I see them get dinged on much, is that their rudder pedals are spaced as widely as many would prefer... and that their throttle slides forward and back instead of rotating through an arc.

Saitek, like Logitech, gets dinged on their customer support quite a bit. I think that on a "bang for the buck" basis, the Saitek X52 HOTAS gets you more control inputs in a useable way than most alternatives. The X52Pro improves on that design and looks more like something that belongs in a combat vehicle, but it does cost more. Both have a twist grip on the joystick, which works well for mech torso twisting if you are so inclined. Saitek's top end HOTAS offering is the X65F. The stick does not move, as it is a force sensing stick (NOT to be confused with s Force Feedback stick). Along with sensing force along the X and Y axis, it also senses "twist" force. User reactions to this are a mixed bag, but mostly seem positive. Most of the negative comments seem to come from non-users who just can not imagine that a stationary stick would work well for them. (I can certainly understand the concern, as it does seem to be quite a stretch for some applications). The other common ding on the X65F is that the split throttles are very stiff when new, but eventually loosen up with use. Recently, I've seen some complaints about quality control (of the throttles), but not enough to say it is a pervasive problem. I'd like to try one out someday, but do not want to spend that much money right now without already having laid hands upon one.

I ended up ordering a Saitek X52Pro (to free up my X52 for hopefully modding into a helicopter HOCAS setup), and Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals. The pedals arrived yesterday, and the X52Pro should be coming in soon. My long term goal is to put together a multi-use pit. We'll see. ;)

#69 Technocide Rex

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 08:57 AM

Likely will be a CH or Thrustmaster with a Razer Nostromo Gamepad for my left hand. I had a two hand stick for MW3/4 and got used to torso twisting with a thumb wheel. Gamepad has a thumbstick with a great programmable layout for left hand. Foot pedals would be way too much work...

#70 Halfinax

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 09:25 AM

View Postmacfarlane, on 13 December 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

I'm currently pondering the Logitech G940 set up with the playseat chair. I'm just curious how well made the gear is. I recall I used to get pretty rough on that stuff back in the day and I'd assume I'd get just as wound up now. lol Any one have any feed back on this set up?

Jim aka MacFarlane*GK*


I know I posted a very basic review around here somewhere, but here's a basic run down of my experience, and what I've heard elsewhere.

I bought mine almost as soon as it hit the market, and have been very happy with it. All the pieces of the unit feel sturdy and have good weight to them so they don't rock during excited play. The force feedback on the flight stick is powerful, and easily adjusted via the software. I haven't had any issues with any of the units during game play (I'm a fairly avid Combat Flight Sim so I use it quite a bit), however; in the calibration menu the pedals have a noticeable back and forth jumping to the input when you are changing rudder direction. This is an issue some people say they notice in game, but I never have. It is one of the most common complaints about the unit. Another issue I've seen people complaining about is overheating of the flightstick, but I've never had this issue. I have noticed at times that when the stick is first powered on (PC starting) that I will hear the centering motors whirring. For some reason they occasionally can't center it, but a simple tap on the stick usually corrects this. I suspect the two issues are related, and it's possible that people with the overheating units aren't hearing the motors continuously whining to center the stick. As I said mine is a first generation, so I don't know how many of these issues may have been fixed in newer versions. The unit as a whole has plenty of easy to reach buttons without having to every take your hand of the stick, and the throttle has many buttons in easy reach if you just keep your hand planted on it, even more if you utilizes the buttons on the base. I've never been wanting for buttons at easy reach, and very very rarely need to use the keyboard for any input.

In conclusion: I couldn't be happier with my purchase, and for the price point I am really impressed you simple can't get a full flight system anywhere else for the price point much less with force feedback. The unit has a number of known issues, but I haven't seen any personally and of those listed I think most are fairly minor. With all the buttons and the sturdiness of the unit I don't foresee needing to replace mine anytime soon.

Edited by Halfinax, 13 December 2011 - 09:26 AM.


#71 Mason Grimm

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 09:39 AM

View PostHalfinax, on 13 December 2011 - 09:25 AM, said:

In conclusion: I couldn't be happier with my purchase, and for the price point I am really impressed you simple can't get a full flight system anywhere else for the price point much less with force feedback. The unit has a number of known issues, but I haven't seen any personally and of those listed I think most are fairly minor. With all the buttons and the sturdiness of the unit I don't foresee needing to replace mine anytime soon.


That is good enough for me.

Between your comments and a few others I've seen (plus knowing one of the Devs uses it) this will be on my wish list for when the game is released.

#72 snapcrackly

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 10:21 PM

I jumped the gun and bought the Logitech G940 Flight system the very day I saw the MechWarrior "Reboot" videos a few years ago, and then the legal actions started on that development and I felt I was out $300. To make myself feel better, I loaded up MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries to try the flight system out.

The set-up software was easy to figure out, and I was quickly in-game shooting up mechs in instant action and figuring out what I wanted each of the many buttons to do. Now it had been close to a decade since I had last played in a pod at Virtual World, but I tried to set up the system closely to what I remember. The one issue I had was that while I want the petals to control torso-twisting, the game wasn't able to recognize that my petals were an axis input, so I simply set it up so when I "twist" the petals left, I would torso-twist to the left and the same for the right.

This worked seamlessly for a mech like the Vulture which had full 360 degree torso twisting in MechWarrior 4. But for most other mechs, I would have preferred to have the axis input, that is I "twist" the pedals half-way to the left or right and my torso twists only half-way as well. This would be how I remember my sidewinder joystick with the twist handle rudder action working in MechWarrior 3 and 4 when I played those games.

That aside, the G940 worked flawlessly and for the first time I had a simulator feel for MechWarrior 4. I had given up on the game in frustration a few years before after briefly trying online multiplayer where it became very obvious that players were using mouse-aiming to snipe cockpits near-flawlessly. Playing with a joystick may not be pin-point accurate, but it feels right.

The G940 looks clean, has metal petals, a nice heavy construction but is expensive. Flight sim fanatics can point you toward other great flight systems that are cheaper and work great for them, but to me the sheer number of customizable buttons on the G940 makes it worth the cost. Now I'm just left wondering if my Nvidia 3D vision will work in MWO.

Edited by snapcrackly, 13 December 2011 - 10:24 PM.


#73 Majer

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:20 AM

I cannot afford new G940, but considering using both Logitech DFGT wheel with pedals, a T.Flight Hotas joystick with throttle, and FreeTrack headtracking device if supported. Wonder if steering wheel, attached to the side of desk, would make a good secondary throttle stick.

#74 Dihm

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:35 AM

I lean towards the X52 Pro myself, not a huge fan of pedals. I put it on my Christmas list for kicks to see if anyone gets it. :P

#75 Frantic Pryde

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:48 AM

I just got myself(from my wife technically) a Saitek X52 for Christmas. Tried it with MW4 yesterday and it worked great! Its awesome to never have to touch the keyboard. Even got my TS3 PTT set on one of the throttle buttons :P I'll be adding the pedals later on. Theres a ton of these sticks on ebay and the prices are good. I got mine for $62 shipped.

#76 CeeKay Boques

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 11:16 AM

View Postsnapcrackly, on 13 December 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:


This worked seamlessly for a mech like the Vulture which had full 360 degree torso twisting in MechWarrior 4. But for most other mechs, I would have preferred to have the axis input, that is I "twist" the pedals half-way to the left or right and my torso twists only half-way as well. This would be how I remember my sidewinder joystick with the twist handle rudder action working in MechWarrior 3 and 4 when I played those games.



Unfortunately that's a limitation of MW4, I'm sure you had to bind the pedals "Torso Twist Right" or "Left" and its just adding "More twist" its not syncing with the stick/pedals. Its kind of an illusion with the stick there too, try to twist "slightly" to the right with your stick. You will slightly twist, slowly, but you won't stop at your twist point, it too just adds "more twist power". Twist more and you will twist faster, but it won't sync with your stick position.

Maybe MWO will fix that one.

#77 aglarang

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 11:34 AM

Nice setup Paul.

As far as sticks go, I have been a devotee of CH Products sticks since the early 90's. They are by far the most stable, durable, and comfortable sticks I have ever used. Back in the day I worked at an EB when it sold more software for PCs than for game consoles and we sold a lot of sticks. CH Products never came back. We got lots of Thrustmasters, MS Sidewinders, and the cheaper brands back. That was before Saitek became a major player and Logitech was much more than a mouse maker, so I don't have as much experience with them.

Anyway, I use a CH Products Combatstick and I have a set of CH Pedals as well. When I played a lot of Mech4 with it, I did not actually use the pedals as I found a joystick/mouse setup gave me the best control. Here is a link to the combatstick on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.co...23891225&sr=1-8

#78 Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 11:54 AM

Currently, i play MW4 Mercs with an old Logitech Wingman extreme digital 3D. This Stick is more than 10 years old and has already some problems (throttle control, z-axis), but it is still "playable". Yesterday i bought a new Thrustmaster T.Flight Stick X. Looks good, has more buttons and works very well. Nice Stick and a fair price (35€)!

#79 macfarlane

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:47 PM

Wow a lot of great info/feed back. Really appreciate all the posts on the various systems. I've wondered about the Saitek 52PRO set up as well so good to hear about the mech torso twisting on those. Also good to hear that Thrustmaster has recovered from some of that bad press/reviews of a few years ago that I recall reading while waiting for a new Mechwarrior online to come out. heh

Now to figure out which set up to go with, I'll do more reading up since we have time. This time around I really want to to go with some sort of office style computer chair set up that I can add bases to for the throttle on one side and joystick on the other.

I'd noted this chair...

http://www.playseat....-executive.html

I hope its ok to add a link to a post? Anyhow I'm wondering if anyone has any feed back on chairs? With this chair I was thinking I'd still have room for my keyboard and mouse which I could easily reach with the joystick and throttle where they were. Since we do have some months away I wanted to investigate every option. :)

#80 Holmes

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 09:48 PM

I absolutely adore my X52, but if you have the option of going chair sim cockpit awesome... I would go for that. That just sounds unreasonably cool.





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