85 replies to this topic

[Yosharian]

It's just far too hot. The only mechs that can use PPCs efficiently in this game are the ones quirked for it, and the clans possess no adequately quirked mechs for this weapon system.

Look at what made the ERPPC usable on the 9S. It was the heat gen quirks.

Edited by Yosharian, 30 April 2015 - 11:35 AM.

[Telmasa]

I am with Soy, ERPPCs are working just fine. I'm one of those ERPPC nova guys (and I was long before the quirks came out, too), and it does work. ERPPCs are also quite viable on other mechs, I think; it's in a good balance of more heat for pin-point-fixed-damage compared to conventional lasers.

(I just wish the leg hitboxes weren't so huge or high up on the Nova, it's startling how my often the legs are being hit on my Nova without touching any other part of the mech - even if I don't have my legs twisted sideways.)


As for IS, we get the PPC. That's what having other weapons for backup is supposed to be for, for covering that 80m minimum range; the regular PPC's heat is very manageable.

ERPPCs aren't meant to be boated, it's intended to only have one or two of the thing on a 'Mech, with other weaponry present for other situations & heat management.

Why the Thunderbolt-9S got so much ERPPC buffing combined with so many energy hardpoints (and ridiculously highmounted ones at that) is beyond me, unless PGI thought players would only run the stock build for some reason...

But, for mechs like the Awesome-9M, I think it makes sense for those many quirks, because it's a very rare niche 'Mech that relies purely on ERPPCs to fight, and it doesn't get magically high hardpoints.

Edited by Telmasa, 30 April 2015 - 05:16 PM.

[Odins Fist]

CLAN ERPPC should 15 damage or GTFO. not 2.5 per whatever side of whatever.
Are we sure it's even doing that..?? I have hit stuff with CERPPCs and saw nothing next to the spot I hit light up.. WTF is up with that..??

Oh, and your 2.0 sec burn time on Clan ERLLaser, SUCKS PGI.... It SUCKS.

That will be all.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mister Raven, on 30 April 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

Lulz.. even MWLL had problems with PPC hit reg.

this amuses me. but only slightly

MWLL was Crysis, using the same engine, so there you have that similarity.




As for what I would do wtih PPCs in this game....

PPC: 10/10, 3.5s CD, 1250ms
ISERPPC: 10/12, 4s CD, 1300ms
CERPPC: 13/15, 4.25s CD, 1200ms

Then quirks for velocity and some heat reduction for certain mechs. Warhawk, Adder, Awesome, Summoner would see some of the best quirks for PPC velocity and heat reduction in the area of 10-15%, other mechs might not get any at all.

Get rid of splash, it obviously makes PPC hit reg real shoddy. THen PGI should shrink the PPC bolt's geometry so it doesnt collide with so much terrain....

[Chagatay]

ERPPCs/PPCs are only for the Primus Paul I's anointed 'mech list. No other 'mech shall use them as he has decreed (well they can but they will perform very badly).

[FupDup]

Telmasa, on 30 April 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

ERPPCs aren't meant to be boated

Lol

[Chagatay]

FupDup, on 30 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Lol

Hellstar actually looks like a pretty decent Assault mech. It has Endosteel, good speed (around Warhawk level), torsi ERPPCs are at cockpit level, and a whopping 30 DHS to deal with that ridiculous heat generation. It would all come down to hitboxes but they don't look too bad other than the XL cockpit. Probably would be ok as only one pane of glass in this game would be the cockpit.

[Telmasa]

Odins Fist, on 30 April 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

I have hit stuff with CERPPCs and saw nothing next to the spot I hit light up.. WTF is up with that..??

I am like 90% sure that's just a visual bug. I've noticed that all the time, but I'm pretty sure the damage is still being done, if I'm carefully watching the paper doll (or turret/gen health when 'testing' on that). It's hard to replicate without some macro, cause of the timing involved, but I think it's probably a visual glitch related to a 'cooldown' of the animation that flashes your reticule red when you hit something.

FupDup, on 30 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Lol

3079 tech dude! (though the Warhawk Prime w/ 4 ERPPCs can get up to 28 heatsinks, only 2 less, so meh)

I've seen the Direstar videos, just cause it *can* be doesn't mean it's meant to be ideal. lol

Take the 4 ERPPC Warhawk for instance - it's in a great spot the way it is. 60 points of alpha damage is extreme - if it weren't for all the various characteristics given to ERPPCs in MWO (heat, spread damage, velocity, crit space, tonnage, etc.), that would be the go-to OP mech for sure. Even with all the drawbacks folks complain about, with ERPPC Warhawks, many pilots still go to town with the things.

So yeah, I think it's in a good spot the way it is.

Edited by Telmasa, 30 April 2015 - 11:57 PM.

[FupDup]

Telmasa, on 30 April 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

3079 tech dude! (though the Warhawk Prime w/ 4 ERPPCs can get up to 28 heatsinks, only 2 less, so meh)

The tech is all available in the invasion era. The mech just needs XL, Endo, DHS, and ERPPCs...which are already here. It's just that engineers didn't think up the idea for the mech until much later.

Telmasa, on 30 April 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

I've seen the Direstar videos, just cause it *can* be doesn't mean it's meant to be ideal. lol

The difference is that this Hellstar mech was literally meant to boat 4 Clan ERPPCs with no heat issues of any kind. 60 total heat per turn, 60 total heat dissipation per turn. If standing still you generated zero net heat, if you moved you only generated a little bit of net heat.

This is accompanied by it going at Warhawk speed with Atlas armor.

It was actually one of the most heat efficient mechs available, especially considering that it's very well-armed (many heat neutral mechs are silly things like a Locust or w/e).

Telmasa, on 30 April 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Take the 4 ERPPC Warhawk for instance - it's in a great spot the way it is. 60 points of alpha damage is extreme - if it weren't for all the various characteristics given to ERPPCs in MWO (heat, spread damage, velocity, crit space, tonnage, etc.), that would be the go-to OP mech for sure. Even with all the drawbacks folks complain about, with ERPPC Warhawks, many pilots still go to town with the things.

So yeah, I think it's in a good spot the way it is.

I'd rather use the Legendary Wubhawk™. FEAR MEH!

Edited by FupDup, 01 May 2015 - 04:36 AM.

[Almond Brown]

DarthRevis, on 30 April 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

stuff

They hardly de synched it...I still run a 2x gauss 2x erppc dwf just fine just without the simultaneous pinpoint.

Key point: "without the simultaneous pinpoint"

Stationary target = 60 (spread may add or subtract)
Moving target = 30 + 30 (spread may add or subtract)

Edited by Almond Brown, 01 May 2015 - 07:09 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Odins Fist, on 30 April 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

stuff

Oh, and your 2.0 sec burn time on Clan ERLLaser, SUCKS PGI.... It SUCKS.

That will be all.

Well you're in Luck today then. The CerLL has a 1.5s burn time. LOL!

Quote

Name Damage Heat Cooldown Range Max Range Slots Tons Speed Duration
C-ER LRG LASER 11.00 10.00 3.25 740 1,480 1 4.0 - 1.50

Pretty sure that will not be all, sadly.

FupDup, on 30 April 2015 - 06:44 PM, said:

Lol

Can I borrow your HellStar Fup. Mine seems to have gone missing...

Edited by Almond Brown, 01 May 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Telmasa]

FupDup, on 01 May 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

The tech is all available in the invasion era. The mech just needs XL, Endo, DHS, and ERPPCs...which are already here. It's just that engineers didn't think up the idea for the mech until much later.

The difference is that this Hellstar mech was literally meant to boat 4 Clan ERPPCs with no heat issues of any kind. 60 total heat per turn, 60 total heat dissipation per turn. If standing still you generated zero net heat, if you moved you only generated a little bit of net heat.

This is accompanied by it going at Warhawk speed with Atlas armor.

It was actually one of the most heat efficient mechs available, especially considering that it's very well-armed (many heat neutral mechs are silly things like a Locust or w/e).

I'd rather use the Legendary Wubhawk™. FEAR MEH!

Meh, tabletop. lol

All the Warhawks I've seen with 4 LPL - including my own - usually just end up spreading damage all over the place, and either lose to a brawl or to other long-ranged weapons. I must not be noticing when a good Wubhawk shows up.

(that tabletop 4LPL warhawk was super OP cheese though, omg...)

Edited by Telmasa, 01 May 2015 - 12:53 PM.

[FupDup]

Telmasa, on 01 May 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Meh, tabletop. lol

All the Warhawks I've seen with 4 LPL - including my own - usually just end up spreading damage all over the place, and either lose to a brawl or to other long-ranged weapons. I must not be noticing when a good Wubhawk shows up.

(that tabletop 4LPL warhawk was super OP cheese though, omg...)

That's because there aren't a lot of Wubhawks as it is, hence why they're Legendary™.

It seems to be more of an all-rounder build than a specialist. Not the best long-range mech, but it can fight at long range decently. Not the best short-range mech, but it can defend itself up close decently. It's for when you can't predict the whim of the Pug Overmind® that an "adaptable" build like it becomes useful.

[Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson]

To the OP what ballistic balance? I have tried to find info but nothing yet could you point me in the right direction.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 01 May 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

I'd rather use the Legendary Wubhawk™. FEAR MEH!

Have you tried Wubhawkv2™?

WHK-C

It's really Wubtacular™, although it has a little Ghost Heat in it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 30 April 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Yup. Let's sync em back up with Gauss Rifles and see how folks enjoy those 50pt. Alphas from >1200m.

GET OVER IT! Those weapons would never hit the same thing at 1200 meters, unless you were standing still like a scrub.


Seriously though, if 50 pt alphas scare you more than the 84 pt alpha Dire today, then just give the Dire a negative velocity quirk. Small price to pay for having these weapons useful on other mechs.

[Pjwned]

What the C-ER PPC and ER PPC both need is a big velocity increase so that it can be actually used as a decent sniper weapon at its max optimal range. Something like 1,600 m/s for C-ER PPC (which would be faster than it is now) and 1800 m/s for ER PPC (so that being heavier, bulkier, and doing less damage would come with at least a small benefit comparatively) would revitalize the usage of ER PPCs in both tech trees. The reason I suggest 1600 m/s for C-ER PPC is at that speed it would take just a tiny bit over 0.5 seconds to reach a target at 810m, and then 1800 m/s for ER PPC would mean taking a bit under 0.5 seconds to reach a target at 810m.

Removing the splash damage is unacceptable because the C-ER PPC is already smaller and lighter than the ER PPC and if you want 15 pinpoint damage you can use the gauss rifle which is also smaller and lighter than its Inner Sphere counterpart.

[Xenocidez]

Exactly.

[Revis Volek]

Almond Brown, on 01 May 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Key point: "without the simultaneous pinpoint"

Stationary target = 60 (spread may add or subtract)
Moving target = 30 + 30 (spread may add or subtract)

Wanna know how far off it is from simultaneous?

About .03-.05 seconds.....for 80% of the pilots in the game it is the same thing still....if you are decent and torso twist it was a big help.

Deathlike, on 01 May 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

Have you tried Wubhawkv2™?

WHK-C

It's really Wubtacular™, although it has a little Ghost Heat in it.

Same thing i did to mine....well not quite. 3x LPL and 2x MPL and a TC3 I think cuz i had the weight....

Edited by DarthRevis, 01 May 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

so tell me how the C-Gauss is OP vs the Grid Irons Gauss?

youre confusing weapon balance with mech balance...

1) clan gauss is overpowered compared to other weapons. thats a weapon balance problem.
2) gridirons quirks are overpowered compared to other mechs quirks. thats a mech balance problem.

both are overpowered in their respective categories.

ideally all weapons should be balanced against all other weapons. And all mechs/quirks should be balanced against all other mechs/quirks.

Because clan mechs dont really have quirks we know immediately balance problems have to be on the weapons side of things... because of the huge bias towards lasers in the current meta. clan weapon balance obviously needs work.

And because IS mechs only use weapons which are buffed by quirks we know the balance problem with IS mechs is that quirks are too powerful on certain mechs. IS mech/quirk balance also obviously needs work.

Edited by Khobai, 02 May 2015 - 08:21 PM.