1189 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

The USS Relativity scans time, finds the time period the Imperium began, uses temporal beam to send multi-petaton torpedoes back in time, killing the Emperor and destroying the planet he was born on. The Imperium of Man no longer exists, and thus, loses.

Edited by Zakatak, 24 December 2011 - 04:00 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Zakatak, on 24 December 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

The USS Relativity scans time, finds the time period the Imperium began, uses temporal beam to send multi-petaton torpedoes back in time, killing the Emperor and destroying the planet he was born on. The Imperium of Man no longer exists, and thus, loses.

That'd be interesting since the result would still be the same. You see the Imperium is supposed to lose anyways, they are prophesied to lose.

You see the whole strategy was that humanity was supposed to offer itself up on a galactic scale and sacrifice their species so that the rest of the universe could live in peace for X amount of years without mad powerful Chaos Gods stomping their faces in.

Turns out it didn't work that way though, because humanity survived the massive civil war known as the "Horus Heresy." So it looks like the universe is doomed anyways.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 04:03 PM.

[steelwraith]

Now see, this is where it gets sticky. Remember my first post comparing subspace to chaos? It's because we need a 'common ground'; the same set of physics. Otherwise the debate will devolve into which universe they're fighting in. Now, since this is strictly a fight between humans, we can leave the chaos gods (and Q) out of it.

As I posted earlier the underlying theme in both universes is the same... a shadow plane consisting of energy. They might have actually been identical prior to the birth of the chaos gods. As I recall, stargate (ie. entering hyperspace/immaterium entirely) technology does exist in the ST universe, the Feds just don't have it.

So if we can assume that subspace and the immaterium are one in the same (again, prior to corruption) then we can make valid comparisons between the two technologies.

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 04:03 PM, said:

Now, since this is strictly a fight between humans, we can leave the chaos gods (and Q) out of it.

I think the trouble there is that the Chaos Gods are actively involved with the action of FTL travel, teleportation, and using a psychic attack. The Q on the other hand, get involved when they feel like it. It's not really a day-to-day affair.

Basically every time your ship enters the Warp, there's a chance your very ship could be possessed, that's why the Geller Field exists. Every time you perform a "Rite of Teleportation" to move your tank from here to there, you risk the tank becoming possessed by the warp. Every time a psyker uses his talents to unleash a psionic attack, there is a risk that person could be possessed by the warp.

So you see the Warp, the Chaos Gods, and the Imperium's technology all coincide with one another. If you remove the "randomness" of the Warp, then now the Imperium can freely perform even the most dangerous maneuvers without any fear of the Warp attacking them.

You know it's like. They have the tech to teleport, why not just teleport everywhere? Cause of the Chaos Gods.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 04:09 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Oh another thing, I think I'm giving the wrong image of the Chaos Gods.

They aren't like watching every single person in existence, in fact most of the time they're busy doing their own thing. It's just BECAUSE of the Chaos Gods that there are grave dangers in the warp. The Chaos Gods don't have to be there for daemons to attack your ship, your tank or your body during Warp travel.

So in other words, removing the Chaos Gods does not change the imminent dangers of daemonic possession or just being attacked by daemons in general in the warp.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 04:11 PM.

[Zakatak]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

By the way, does anyone else find it ironic that Star Wars has taken the lead?

http://starwars.wiki...iki/Sun_Crusher
http://starwars.wiki...wiki/Galaxy_gun
http://starwars.wiki...i/Death_Star_II
http://starwars.wiki..._Star_Destroyer

You can debate all day about Star Trek vs WH40k, but you can't really argue against Star Wars because they have s**t that destroys solar systems in 1 strike.

Edited by Zakatak, 24 December 2011 - 04:13 PM.

[steelwraith]

As long as their influence is restricted to their plane, it doesn't matter. ST ships don't enter it, and we've already established that warp is hazardous to 40k ships.

[steelwraith]

Zakatak, on 24 December 2011 - 04:11 PM, said:

http://starwars.wiki...iki/Sun_Crusher
http://starwars.wiki...wiki/Galaxy_gun
http://starwars.wiki...i/Death_Star_II
http://starwars.wiki..._Star_Destroyer

You can debate all day about Star Trek vs WH40k, but you can't really argue against Star Wars because they have s**t that destroys solar systems in 1 strike.

Pfft and how much resources were used in making those? A Star Trek tech could cause a sytem's star to collapse with a shuttlecraft.

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 04:15 PM, said:

As long as their influence is restricted to their plane, it doesn't matter. ST ships don't enter it, and we've already established that warp is hazardous to 40k ships.

The Chaos Gods can affect the material world by unleashing catastrophic amounts of warp into the world(piercing a hole in reality, warp basically bleeds out). But like you said this is a battle between IoM vs Fed, so the Chaos Gods will be content to observe(which is realistic, they like it when people kill each other).

More on topic though.

It probably means that neither side can really resist each others FTL mechanics. Since teleportation is done through the warp, the IoM wouldn't have any technology designed to protect against ST teleportation. The reverse is also true though since ST have technology designed to resist their own form of teleportation.

The Fed would not be very well off to try to fight the IoM in man-to-man boarding action. But nothing stops them from beaming up a nuke onto an IoM ship if they wanted. You could do stuff like that. IoM could warp the object out if they could find it in time, but that is just a general illustration about how neither side have defense against teleportation mechanics.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 04:22 PM.

[steelwraith]

Zakatak, on 24 December 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

The USS Relativity scans time, finds the time period the Imperium began, uses temporal beam to send multi-petaton torpedoes back in time, killing the Emperor and destroying the planet he was born on. The Imperium of Man no longer exists, and thus, loses.

Ugh, try to keep time travel out of this, its another deus ex machima.

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

Ugh, try to keep time travel out of this, its another deus ex machima.

Pulling a deus happens all the time in Warhammer. We are used to it heh.

Like play Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine for the next gen console. The main character gets saved randomly by the warp for some unexplained reason, and is apparently somehow warp resistant despite not having the proper rites of teleportation.

It's deus ex machina. But no one gives a crap in Warhammer cause that's the way it is.

That's why they say the only truth is Chaos.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 04:24 PM.

[Zakatak]

How about something new?

Leviathan-class Warship vs. Normandy SR-2 (refit) vs. UNSC Pillar of Autumn.

No magic like the warp or transporter, no gods like Choas and Q. Less to speculate about.

Edited by Zakatak, 24 December 2011 - 04:27 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

I'd imagine that the Pillar of Autumn would destroy the Normandy SR-2 even with its refits in a single blow from the MAC cannon, the issue there would be if you could even hit something as small and as fast as the Normany. On top of that you'd have to concern yourself with the sensors of the Autumn, could they detect the Normandy with its stealth technology? Does the UNSC rely on thermal scanning for sensory data?

The Normandy is kind of unfair though since it has that "main character" status so it can pull off stunts other ships of its class couldn't do(like defeat the collector vessel).

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 04:43 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

It probably means that neither side can really resist each others FTL mechanics. Since teleportation is done through the warp, the IoM wouldn't have any technology designed to protect against ST teleportation. The reverse is also true though since ST have technology designed to resist their own form of teleportation.

Well, actually Trek would have the advantage there, because we've seen them develop shields to block subspace-based teleporting like the IoM uses. I've noted it before, but in VOY "Equinox" we see an under-manned Nova class frigate (tiny little ship with very limited resources) reconfigure their shields to prevent subspace fissures from forming on their ship, because they managed to **** off some subspace aliens who decided to try and kill them (out of self-defense because the Equinox crew was killing them, but that's another story). Trek shields would easily be able to be configured to block IoM teleportation, if they didn't already block it in normal configurations.

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

The Fed would not be very well off to try to fight the IoM in man-to-man boarding action. But nothing stops them from beaming up a nuke onto an IoM ship if they wanted. You could do stuff like that. IoM could warp the object out if they could find it in time, but that is just a general illustration about how neither side have defense against teleportation mechanics.

Infantry-vs-infantry is a mixed bag. Lightly-equipped security teams would waste conventional IoM infantry, though Space Marines would be more of a challenge. The Space Marines would also be at something of a disadvantage, because while their armor isn't absolute proof against their enemies' attacks, it DOES afford not inconsiderable protection against the conventional attacks they're used to facing (otherwise they wouldn't wear it). It would offer zero protection against Trek weaponry, however, and at full setting even the famed ability of Space Marines to keep fighting even after sustaining fatal damage would do them little good because the phasers at higher settings would vaporize them inside their armor suits (an effect we've seen often enough on ships, with phasers penetrating the thick, durable outer hull and then gutting the much weaker interior).

A lightly-equipped security team would probably be on more-or-less equal footing with a Space Marine force, but a well-equipped Trek infantry force, with Trek body armor (it does exist, we've seen it) and personal forcefields would outmatch even the vaunted Space Marines quite easily.

Boarding actions would probably be few and far between, however, because Trek ships would have little reason to close to within range of IoM ships in combat. Space Marines might face off against Trek boarding parties looking for survivors of IoM ships that were mission-killed but not outright obliterated, or the occasional surprise attack during negotiations or what-have-you, but boarding actions, particularly IoM boarding actions against Trek ships, would be uncommon.


Aaaand time to head off for the annual Christmas Eve family get-together. More later this evening. Merry Christmas, everyone!

[steelwraith]

I'm going to go off on a tangent here, so bear with me.

To be brutally honest, most of this list can't be fairly compared. Why? Because their media affects their lore. For instance:

Star Wars: Basically a fantasy movie with sci-fi scenery. Young knight with sword? Check. Wizard mentor? Check. Roguish companions for comedy relief? Check. Enemy fortress to infiltrate? Check. Princess to rescue? Check. Black knight to defeat... well you get the idea. Since the sci-fi elements were only a backdrop, no real effort was made to make them believable, or accurate.

Star Trek: Though the later series tried to be scientifically accurate (with actual scientific consulting), the original series didn't have that luxury, and had serious budget problems to boot. The inclusion of transporter technology was a workaround to avoid filming expensive shuttle scenes. End result, an otherwise believable sci-fi setting with a single super-science piece of technology that was so powerful that writers had to continually find excuses not to use it. I mean seriously, the ability to disintegrate, transport, and reintegrate matter would have been centuries ahead of their current level of technology, if it's possible at all. This single budget concession has become the focal point for the entire franchise.

Warhammer 40k: Here we have an enigma. On one hand, we have Games 'why have hundreds when you can have gazillions!' Workshop and their tendancy to be over the top with their franchises, yet at the same time they had to scale back the technology in order to keep the tabletop game fun. Rightly so of course; imagine what the game would be like with the kind of tech they should have: 'Ok, I won initiative. I fire my black hole generator, turning your half of the board into a quantum singularity. Good game.' This of course leads to some interesting contradictions in technology; it reminds me of pounding a square peg into a round hole. The inclusion of magic to help entice Warhammer players to buy their shiny new 40k versions only adds to the confusion. Like Star Wars, I would consider it more fantasy than sci-fi.

Stargate: Never followed it, can't comment.

Various video games: Though the tech lore tends to be quite good in these, there tends to be only enough of it to make the game. Mind you, if the game spawns sequels then enough lore may accumulate to make the franchise as detailed as any sci-fi novel. Unless of course, the game is based on an existing franchise (see above), then you're pretty much stuck with the baggage it brings.

Various anime shows: Varies widely, but tends to be unrealistic... mechs the size of the Eiffel Tower would be crushed under its own weight, regardless of what it was made of; but that's the beauty of animation, anything is possible. Again though it depends on the series in question.

So as you can see, the medium has a direct and lasting effect on the lore. While it's fairly easy to compare franchises of a similar medium (ie. movies/tv, or video games) lumping them all together becomes an exercise in frustration.

On a personal note, as someone who has read literally hundreds of sci-fi novels (sadly, I'm not exaggerating... I had no life as a kid), I find that the more advanced the setting, the less interesting it becomes. Firstly, because the further you go into the future the harder it becomes to predict it, making it harder to suspend disbelief. A good example is Star Trek. Think of all the things you could do with transporter technology, and all they came up with (for the most part) are automated food vendors. Secondly, as technology becomes more advanced, the human component becomes less and less relevant; and ultimately, its the human connection that makes these stories enjoyable, whether it be Luke or Shepherd or Kirk or the Dark Angels. My personal favorite? Cyberpunk (and yes, Battletech can fall under the cyberpunk genre).

[Zakatak]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 05:31 PM, said:

...I find that the more advanced the setting, the less interesting it becomes. Firstly, because the further you go into the future the harder it becomes to predict it, making it harder to suspend disbelief. A good example is Star Trek. Think of all the things you could do with transporter technology, and all they came up with (for the most part) are automated food vendors. Secondly, as technology becomes more advanced, the human component becomes less and less relevant; and ultimately, its the human connection that makes these stories enjoyable...

Have you ever watched the new Battlestar Galactica? Makes Battletech look like Star Trek in technology. You should really give a go. Also Stargate. Stargate is really awesome. Imagine if the US government slapped a bunch of alien technology on F-22's.

Edited by Zakatak, 24 December 2011 - 05:59 PM.

[steelwraith]

Zakatak, on 24 December 2011 - 05:56 PM, said:

Have you ever watched the new Battlestar Galactica? Makes Battletech look like Star Trek in technology. You should really give a go. Also Stargate. Stargate is really awesome. Imagine if the US government slapped a bunch of alien technology on F-22's.

Yep, big BSG fan, along with Babylon 5.

[steelwraith]

BTW, Games Workshop has the entire Battlefleet Gothic game available via pdf, it's the ship-to-ship combat game for Warhammer 40k.:

http://www.games-wor...questid=4334095

Might have some relevant info somewhere in there.

[Zakatak]

I cannot get into Babylon 5. I just can't.

Maybe i'm too young to appreciate it, despite it being no older then Mechwarrior 2. Maybe its the acting, or the upbeat 80's music, not sure what. I stopped 18 episodes into the 1st season.

Watch Stargate for sure, I like it. Also, how is Enterprise? Star Trek without shields or tractor beams (yet transporters, annoyingly...) sounds pretty awesome on paper.

[steelwraith]

I rather liked Enterprise for the most part, you get to see the beginnings of a lot of the later Star Trek technology. The biggest problem with the series (in my opinion) was that Scott Bakula was horribly miscast as the captain. He just comes off as too docile, too nice guy... and when the ratings started to drop and the writers tried to make him more 'edgy', it just became laughable. There are some nice story arcs with the Andorians in the later seasons though.

As for Babylon 5, yeah the acting pretty much sucked in the first season. Actually season one was by far the worst season of the series. Some of the writing was pretty questionable too, but the overarching story was pure genius. You may want to give it another try starting in season two (Michael O'Hare is replaced with Bruce Boxleitner, a much better actor in my opinion). Character development of the various alien ambassadors was pretty good too. I imagine the cgi is pretty dated though...