272 replies to this topic

[JaxRiot]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

No offense taken. But, I do suggest reviewing the anti-CW threads and posts again. You'll see I wasn't exaggerating (not much anyway ).

As for Steam, that will be a huge publicity nightmare unless things vastly improve.

Oh I agree. I watch those threads too and even though I agree that those things like spawn camping and light rushes and jerk Units dont happen every single time like some people seem to portray, they happen often enough that its a real turn off to CW for people.

And with the small community in CW, the chances or running across Units that actively try to do those things regularly is pretty good.

I should note though that not all Units do those things. There are some really good fun Units in CW, and if it wasnt for rule against throwing out names, I would throw some of them out there.

Edit- In case it is unclear, Im mostly agreeing with you about the exaggerations. Just saying that the accusations are not unfounded.

I also agree about the Steam thing. Opening the flood gates to an entire community of gamers (and more than likely casual types) is a double edged sword. They are not as understanding of a Niche game. Tick those people off and they will run off and tell the whole world.

But then again, if they like what they see, then it could be a real boon.

Edited by JaxRiot, 05 May 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Taemien]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

For the average solo player who does not know any better, when they constantly hear day in and day out that:

• "They are clubbing us like baby seals!"
  
• "We always fight against evil 12-mans!"
  
• "Three quarters of our team always dies because of spawn camps!"
  
• "It's nothing but light rushes everywhere!"
  
• <insert any other CW boogeyman or exaggeration>

tries to play CW once and experiences one of the above, what do you think is their most likely reaction?

Troll the forums? Seriously thats what it seems like they do.

I still don't see what happened other than a bunch of younger players getting in the mix. When I played planetary leagues in the late 90s and early 2000s, anyone who said, "I get stomped," or "they're too organized," or "too many pre-mades," or "I'm getting spawn camped." Would all have been laughed at in the general chats and told to get better.

So yeah my typical reaction is going to be the same, that being "get good." But then I'm called a bully or hardcore or whatever.

I really don't care if people don't play CW. My original point was, don't whine about the devs because your units won't play in CW. You always have the choice to join a CW focused unit. You really don't even have to leave the unit you're in if you have a bunch of blitzed out on legal/illegal substance 'casual' buddies. Just join a TS server or channel (if you're on one of those faction TS servers) and queue up with a real team.

The "I'm not so great so I'm going to blame the devs" excuse is really old. And I'm seeing alot of that in this thread. And the reason I can call it an excuse is NO ONE supports a game they don't believe in, NO ONE plays a game that is not fun for them. They don't stick around to troll. They are trolling because they like the game, but can't play it solo or can't put together the groups that other players can. They're hoping to generate like support and make them feel validated by demarginalizing those of us who do have fun and do see success.

They are lying to themselves and to the rest of us. And the ironic thing about it is they claim not to care about CW. However... to post in this thread they have to scroll down to the CW section, click it, and scroll down past the subforum links and pinned threads and then finally find this thread. That's alot of work for something they don't care about.

What they really want is for the devs to code out their ineptitude. Unfortunately for them, that's not possible.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

For the average solo player who does not know any better, when they constantly hear day in and day out that:

• "They are clubbing us like baby seals!"
  
• "We always fight against evil 12-mans!"
  
• "Three quarters of our team always dies because of spawn camps!"
  
• "It's nothing but light rushes everywhere!"
  
• <insert any other CW boogeyman or exaggeration>

tries to play CW once and experiences one of the above, what do you think is their most likely reaction?

No, they don't happen every game, but they do happen.

The problem isn't players losing. It's players losing so badly that they simply don't want to play anymore.
The more players leave, the more likely it is that the remaining players will experience one of the steamrolls.

I know people are gonna jump in and say that CW isn't a hug fest or make snide comments about participation trophies, but when a game mode loses players as quickly as CW has, it's time to accept the fact that something is wrong and needs to change.

I personally just don't find it all that fun. I've experienced the rolls and spawn camps, and while I find them frustrating, I might be able to put up with them if the mode was really fun and engaging. Unfortunately, CW has failed to hold my (and many others) interest.

[Caustic Canid]

Taemien, on 05 May 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Troll the forums? Seriously thats what it seems like they do.

I still don't see what happened other than a bunch of younger players getting in the mix. When I played planetary leagues in the late 90s and early 2000s, anyone who said, "I get stomped," or "they're too organized," or "too many pre-mades," or "I'm getting spawn camped." Would all have been laughed at in the general chats and told to get better.

So yeah my typical reaction is going to be the same, that being "get good." But then I'm called a bully or hardcore or whatever.

I really don't care if people don't play CW. My original point was, don't whine about the devs because your units won't play in CW. You always have the choice to join a CW focused unit. You really don't even have to leave the unit you're in if you have a bunch of blitzed out on legal/illegal substance 'casual' buddies. Just join a TS server or channel (if you're on one of those faction TS servers) and queue up with a real team.

The "I'm not so great so I'm going to blame the devs" excuse is really old. And I'm seeing alot of that in this thread. And the reason I can call it an excuse is NO ONE supports a game they don't believe in, NO ONE plays a game that is not fun for them. They don't stick around to troll. They are trolling because they like the game, but can't play it solo or can't put together the groups that other players can. They're hoping to generate like support and make them feel validated by demarginalizing those of us who do have fun and do see success.

They are lying to themselves and to the rest of us. And the ironic thing about it is they claim not to care about CW. However... to post in this thread they have to scroll down to the CW section, click it, and scroll down past the subforum links and pinned threads and then finally find this thread. That's alot of work for something they don't care about.

What they really want is for the devs to code out their ineptitude. Unfortunately for them, that's not possible.

Which would be a fine attitude to have if this games continued existence didn't rely on player base growth and retention.

"Back in the day" if I didn't like how hardcore a group of players were, I could just start my own server and play with friends and people of my own skill level. The only way to (sort of) do that now is with premium time.

[Mystere]

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

No, they don't happen every game, but they do happen.

The problem isn't players losing. It's players losing so badly that they simply don't want to play anymore.
The more players leave, the more likely it is that the remaining players will experience one of the steamrolls.

I know people are gonna jump in and say that CW isn't a hug fest or make snide comments about participation trophies, but when a game mode loses players as quickly as CW has, it's time to accept the fact that something is wrong and needs to change.

I personally just don't find it all that fun. I've experienced the rolls and spawn camps, and while I find them frustrating, I might be able to put up with them if the mode was really fun and engaging. Unfortunately, CW has failed to hold my (and many others) interest.

CW is currently just two game modes and a very simplistic "take 8 out of 15" "campaign". It lacks any depth whatsoever. As such, the obvious solution is to add better game modes and maps, while adding game elements (e.g. logistics, real campaigns) that add to the depth. Something like this.

But if people keep constantly demanding that maps so and so be changed first, mechanics so and so be made to hand-hold players now, mechs so and so be made less durable yesterday, and weapons so and so be made less deadly tomorrow, then PGI will not have time doing much of anything else. We have already had nerf/buff cycles that have gone full circle. Full ******* circle! Do people realize what that means? Those cycles just wasted PGI's time, a whole lot of time that could have been better spent on building the missing stuff.

Edited by Mystere, 05 May 2015 - 12:20 PM.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

CW is currently just two game modes and a very simplistic "take 8 out of 15" "campaign". It lacks any depth whatsoever. As such, the obvious solution is to add better game modes and maps, while adding game elements (e.g. logistics, real campaigns) that add to the depth. Something like this.

But if people keep constantly demanding that maps so and so be changed first, mechanics so and so be made to hand-hold players now, mechs so and so be made less durable yesterday, and weapons so and so be made less deadly tomorrow, then PGI will not have time doing much of anything else. We have already had nerf/buff cycles that have gone full circle. Full ******* circle!Do people realize what that means? Those cycles just wasted PGI's time, a whole lot of time that could have been better spent on building the missing stuff.

Nerfs and buffs are a necessary part of any game development cycle. Yes they take time, but they are required for any game to be balanced.

If you're building a car, and the engine is broken, you don't put the car together and then fix the engine later.

[Ghost_19Hz]

I have fun playing CW but mostly for the dropship.

Some things I have noticed are: The artificial choke points control the battle too much. Maps with 3 entrances alleviate it somewhat but there is very limited strategy even then, some maps have vast territories never used in combat and reinforcing rarely works just wave 1-4. I don't mind waves but i wish there was a little more incentive to use both tactics. Suicide waves onto Omega/Gens seem anti-climactic after waiting 30 minutes for a battle. It was very difficult (as IS anyway) to achieve 50 games (got 45) played in a week long event.

What would be really cool would be if the maps were open sandbox style and there were choice of where to set your home base, mobile assets, or various drop-zones to choose before hand. I even dream of field repairs or FOB's that could replace armor panels. Maybe an airstrip or two that when taken over unlocks slightly more accurate strikes or faster drops. I dunno... what do you guys think?

[Mystere]

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Nerfs and buffs are a necessary part of any game development cycle. Yes they take time, but they are required for any game to be balanced.

If you're building a car, and the engine is broken, you don't put the car together and then fix the engine later.

I think you missed the problem. Nerf/buff cycles going full circle means someone just wasted time, effort, and resources.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

I think you missed the problem. Nerf/buff cycles going full circle means someone just wasted time, effort, and resources.

Is that PGI or the players fault?

[Tywren]

Taemien, on 04 May 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

Seems to be a common theme here. Instead of taking personal responsibility. Players are still blaming the devs for everything.

In the days of previous MechWarrior and MechCommander games we had to rely on third parties to give us a planetary assault style of play. And you know what was required in those days? And do you know what you got?

1. A fully staffed unit. If you didn't have 4, 8, or 12 people to be able to drop on a semi daily basis, you couldn't play. If you ran with a 2-4 man unit, you were forced to play as a Merc and had to wait for a unit to allow you to drop with them. Most didn't use mercs for that purpose and instead hired mercs who could field a full load to do assaults and raids for them. You didn't have the luxury of letting PUGs fight an occasional sector. If you didn't show up, you were kicked from the league.

Imagine that, if a defense or offense alert happens and you don't answer it, you can't play CW anymore. You're done as well as the rest of your unit. Yeah its much better now.

2. Automation was NOT integrated with the game. You had to login to a website and when attacks or defenses happened, you used the current MechWarrior game as a proxy. Make sure you take screenshots when you win or when the opponent does something fishy. Couldn't rely on the system to enforce the rules of the league. Oh and when you were done, you logged back onto the website and put in the results, had to wait for the opponent to confirm.. and have another tab open ready to deploy again before he clicked his. You do wish to be on the offensive again. Not defense.

3. No rewards. You had dots that represented the InnerSphere. When you won you got another dot in your faction's color. That's it. And you know what? That's all we needed. We played competitively for the sake of playing competitively. What happened? You all are blaming the devs, but what kind of POS units are you all in that you have to rely on rewards to get your members to show up? This isn't the dev's faults. Its your members' fault and your leaders' fault. They're little zerglings that are only here to see a Cbill number go up. They are not competitive players, but entitled little millennials that need achievements to help them get to the next room in modern games.

Don't blame the dev's for people not showing up. Look at yourselves, your units' members, and your units' leadership.

So what you're saying is that the game you want to play already exists? Then maybe the solution is for PGI to tell you, and everyone who thinks like you to piss off; that way you can go back to playing the moldy oldies you enjoy so much, and PGI can focus on making this game into something the majority of their player base wants to actualy play.

By PGI's own admition, only 13% of the game's pop play CW, yet it's the major focus of development. There is only one word for that, suicidal; you can't build what is looking like atleast 50% of your game around 13% of your player base, and they've pushed CW too hard to backtrack now. That leaves one option, changing devlopment focus to expand the enjoyment of the 87%, even if that means loosing a large chunk of that smaller 13% such as yourself.

[Mystere]

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

Is that PGI or the players fault?

Both.

[Mystere]

Tywren, on 05 May 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

By PGI's own admition, only 13% of the game's pop play CW, yet it's the major focus of development. There is only one word for that, suicidal; you can't build what is looking like atleast 50% of your game around 13% of your player base, and they've pushed CW too hard to backtrack now. That leaves one option, changing devlopment focus to expand the enjoyment of the 87%, even if that means loosing a large chunk of that smaller 13% such as yourself.

That's because CW now is just a shell, nothing more. It has only 2 game modes, a simplistic "take 8 out of 15" "campaign", and no depth. Of course it's no surprise only 13% or so are playing it.

What is funny though is that some people have even demanded in other threads that PGI should restrict their efforts in CW to an equivalent of just 13%. Why should that be? That sounds to me like asking technology companies to spend 0% of their budget on research and development because no one is currently buying a product that has not been invented yet.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

Both.

How can someone be "at fault" for reporting bugs/imbalance in a beta? If something is game breaking the devs need to know about it and fix it before they should proceed with the rest of the game. Especially if the problem is systemic to the way development will continue going forward.

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

That's because CW now is just a shell, nothing more. It has only 2 game modes, a simplistic "take 8 out of 15" "campaign", and no depth. Of course it's no surprise only 13% or so are playing it.

What is funny though is that some people have even demanded in other threads that PGI should restrict their efforts in CW to an equivalent of just 13%. Why should that be? That sounds to me like asking technology companies to spend 0% of their budget on research and development because no one is currently buying a product that has not been invented yet.

That was me. It was more of an irritated response to the general attitude of "If you don't like it, get out." I'm fine with PGI devoting more than 13% of resources to it, as long as it appeals to more than 13% of the player base.

[Mystere]

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

How can someone be "at fault" for reporting bugs/imbalance in a beta? If something is game breaking the devs need to know about it and fix it before they should proceed with the rest of the game. Especially if the problem is systemic to the way development will continue going forward.

I'm sure you are aware of the history of the changes made to the PPC and the mechanics and other changes borne out of it, right? Track all of those.

Then compare those with what people are complaining about right now with regards to weapons, especially energy weapons and with regard to CW.

Connect the dots and tell me what you find.

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

That was me. It was more of an irritated response to the general attitude of "If you don't like it, get out." I'm fine with PGI devoting more than 13% of resources to it, as long as it appeals to more than 13% of the player base.

Actually, it wasn't just you.

Edited by Mystere, 05 May 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

I'm sure you are aware of the history of the changes made to the PPC and the mechanics and other changes borne out of it, right? Track all of those.

Then compare those with what people are complaining about right now with regards to weapons, especially energy weapons and with regard to CW.

Connect the dots and tell me what you find.

hexastalker -> ghost heat -> removal of some ghost heat -> laser vomit/boating. (poptarts are in there somewhere)
Did I miss a step?

Those problems are due to PGI being unsure of how to actually address the problem and trying different things.

A lot of the problems we're having with weapon balance in CW come from the design of the maps. They are also caused by the fact that the game itself started as single spawn TDM, was balanced to be single spawn TDM and then got turned in to a multispawn attack/defend mode where the TDM balance is actually working against it.

Light rushes (though not that big of a problem) are an example. Their hitreg is broken because in TDM, they are supposed to be assault killers, to add a perception of balance to the game. Otherwise no one would play lights. This same balancing mechanism allows lights to run past teams and eat the objectives.

If the game had been built from the ground up around CW, these balance issues would have been taken care of.

Again though, I'm not sure how the previous and current PPC/Energy weapon issues are the players fault, other than players minmaxing.

[Mystere]

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

hexastalker -> ghost heat -> removal of some ghost heat -> laser vomit/boating. (poptarts are in there somewhere)
Did I miss a step?

Yes. The various changes directly made on the PPC itself is just one. Quirks make up another one. I leave the rest to you.

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

Those problems are due to PGI being unsure of how to actually address the problem and trying different things.

A lot of the problems we're having with weapon balance in CW come from the design of the maps. They are also caused by the fact that the game itself started as single spawn TDM, was balanced to be single spawn TDM and then got turned in to a multispawn attack/defend mode where the TDM balance is actually working against it.

Light rushes (though not that big of a problem) are an example. Their hitreg is broken because in TDM, they are supposed to be assault killers, to add a perception of balance to the game. Otherwise no one would play lights. This same balancing mechanism allows lights to run past teams and eat the objectives.

If the game had been built from the ground up around CW, these balance issues would have been taken care of.

Again though, I'm not sure how the previous and current PPC/Energy weapon issues are the players fault, other than players minmaxing.

Players cried loudly, constantly, and endlessly about those, PGI responded - and thus spent a whole lot of limited resources: time, money, people -- by dealing with them instead of working on CW, and we now have a mess ... everywhere. But if players had only just toughened up then ...

Edited by Mystere, 05 May 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

But if players had only just toughened up then ...

Why didn't you just say "players should have got good", instead of wasting 5 posts of both our time?

[Mystere]

Caustic Canid, on 05 May 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

Why didn't you just say "players should have got good", instead of wasting 5 posts of both our time?

And you missed, by a mile ...

Hint: priorities.

Edited by Mystere, 05 May 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Caustic Canid]

Mystere, on 05 May 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

And you missed, by a mile ...

Hint: priorities.

No, I get it. Development resources are limited. You are saying that players should have put up with a flawed game so that the developers could focus on putting out more content and game modes rather than trying to make the base game mechanics functional and fun.

[Grynos]

I believe what Mystere means is that PGI is a small company, where they are very limited to the amount of things they can do in a given time period. So while yes there should be some balancing changes,map changes etc. PGI doesn't have the man power to deal with that as well as make major changes to CW.

Now if only 20% of the players ( a rather high estimate BTW and perhaps much lower than that now ) are actually playing CW, it is up to PGI to come up with a way to fix that well before they even thinking about releasing MWO on Steam. PGI has to realize that just throwing out another map is not the solution. Many people have gotten "fed up" with PGI and have stopped playing, which happens in a lot of games but here is the difference, those other games have the larger populations to withstand it as well as other avenues to draw in new players, MWO doesn't currently have that ability.