146 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Telmasa, on 25 May 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

IS mechs are the exact same speed if you use the same size XL engine. The Black Knight with the Timberwolf's engine will go the exact same speed (since the Orion has a lower size restriction).

Unfortunately, only one BK variant will be able to fit the 375XL engine... but very likely it is a bad proposition AND that it is the 4th variant listed (only early preorders would obtain it).

In essence, it's not likely to be a benefit and Clan XL is still superior to IS XL in durability.

[Templar Dane]

Deathlike, on 25 May 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Unfortunately, only one BK variant will be able to fit the 375XL engine... but very likely it is a bad proposition AND that it is the 4th variant listed (only early preorders would obtain it).

In essence, it's not likely to be a benefit and Clan XL is still superior to IS XL in durability.

It does have the benefit of being able to go slower and having the same durability. A standard 300 weighs less than an XL 375

[bobobobobiy]

I think fat arms are a boon rather than a liability, which is really apparent with stalkers.
The ability to spread damage aimed at torsos onto arms is a great advantage, so the timberwolf having spindly arms doesn't do it any favors.

[Deathlike]

lordtzar, on 25 May 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

It does have the benefit of being able to go slower and having the same durability. A standard 300 weighs less than an XL 375

That's not a true benefit. If we learned ANYTHING from the Victor or Zeus... a large engine is required or it's going to really suck.

[Gas Guzzler]

lordtzar, on 25 May 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

It does have the benefit of being able to go slower and having the same durability. A standard 300 weighs less than an XL 375

You could say that it benefits from being able to take a smaller XL engine so it can go slower in order to equip the heavier IS weapons though.

[Lightfoot]

It's just tonnage. 29 tons for Timber Wolf, 23.5 tons for Stormcrow. All the Clan mechs should be allowed to swap Jumpjets, Endo, and FF armors and then you would see them all. There is no mystery except what does PGI think they are saving anyone from by locking this equipment on the other Clan mechs? Really they are just locking the use of these other Clan mechs from the players.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Lightfoot, on 25 May 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

It's just tonnage. 29 tons for Timber Wolf, 23.5 tons for Stormcrow. All the Clan mechs should be allowed to swap Jumpjets, Endo, and FF armors and then you would see them all. There is no mystery except what does PGI think they are saving anyone from by locking this equipment on the other Clan mechs? Really they are just locking the use of these other Clan mechs from the players.

....thereby inherently making them flat out better than non-omni 'mechs by allowing hardpoint and quirk customization with no drawback. You really didn't think this through.

With the quirk system already in the game, the proper solution there is to apply reductions in capability- measured reductions in capability in carefully moderated, initially small amounts, to the two omnimechs that stand out overmuch. Then, apply improvements- again, measured improvements in carefully moderated, initially small amounts, to the omnimechs that underperform the others (ideally actually using the quirk system as the primary method here) in a fashion similar to (but more careful than) that used to balance out the Inner Sphere 'mechs thus far. (And, ideally, going over that same method's application to Inner Sphere 'mechs and trying to even things out so there are less sufferers and superquirk 'mechs because really now.)

The whole quirk system exists for the purpose of being able to bring 'mechs that perform exceptionally well or poorly compared to alternative choices into line with the rest of the options, so that the 'mechs still perform and function differently in terms of manner but not in terms of base value.

Simply ignoring this system that's been put into the game in favor of removing the distinction between omnimechs and non-omnis is not only going against the attempts by PGI to establish a differing 'flavor' of customization between the two types of 'mechs, but also going against the stated goal of PGI in altering the comparative traits of Clan equipment- which was to make the differing choices equally valuable, but differently functioning.


By the logic you're using here, allowing any Inner Sphere 'mech to swap ferro and endo and mount whatever number of jump jets would also have made sure that all Inner Sphere 'mechs started appearing in roughly equivalent numbers. This is demonstratably not the case, given that prior to the Quirk system, many 'mechs that had jump jets were not being brought in where others without were, and the ability to swap ferro and endo on and off has always been available to all non-omni 'mechs. Despite this supposedly closer equivalency, a lot of chassis were just not seeing play very much (Awesome, Quickdraw, Raven 4X, Trebuchet, etc.) despite some of them being 'better' by this metric for their ability to mount jump jets.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 25 May 2015 - 10:59 PM.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 25 May 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

That's not a true benefit. If we learned ANYTHING from the Victor or Zeus... a large engine is required or it's going to really suck.

Really...? The Victor and Zeus can be fine with STD engines, if you play as a group and build around a single speed for IS mechs.

The issue is less the speed gap between IS and Clans, and more the difference in speeds in the IS. Some mechs are fast as can be...others are slow as molasses, and you are likely to see a ton of different speeds in a single drop. In short, the IS does not move as a group...

[Deathlike]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Really...? The Victor and Zeus can be fine with STD engines, if you play as a group and build around a single speed for IS mechs.

The issue is less the speed gap between IS and Clans, and more the difference in speeds in the IS. Some mechs are fast as can be...others are slow as molasses, and you are likely to see a ton of different speeds in a single drop. In short, the IS does not move as a group...

It's not all about the (top) speed, but torso twisting.

There's more to a mech than just raw speed.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Gyrok, on 26 May 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

Really...? The Victor and Zeus can be fine with STD engines, if you play as a group and build around a single speed for IS mechs.

The issue is less the speed gap between IS and Clans, and more the difference in speeds in the IS. Some mechs are fast as can be...others are slow as molasses, and you are likely to see a ton of different speeds in a single drop. In short, the IS does not move as a group...

Deathlike, on 26 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

It's not all about the (top) speed, but torso twisting.

There's more to a mech than just raw speed.

You've both got good points here, but I don't believe either end of that argument accounts for the whole problem. Particularly since most of what I'm considering here is the Crow and Wolf in comparison to other Clan 'mechs.

The Stormcrow tanks too well for its tonnage and weight class, regardless whether you're comparing it to Clan or Inner Sphere 'mechs, and combining that with such good torso twisting that it just doesn't have to worry about even the fastest 'mechs staying out of its target locks (because they can't) makes it a 'mech with no defensive weakness. Even the Timber Wolf isn't as good for its tonnage as the Crow, and I've seen both 'mechs being piloted by members of the same comp group in the same drop (and thus presumably at least close to the same skill) in situations where the Crow manages to outtank the Wolf. Any sort of reduction in power aimed at the Crow should really be about its tanking and/or light-handling capacity first- not its ability to carry lots of energy weapons.

With how little the multi-energy arms on that thing get used, the issue is clearly not the Stormcrow carrying a lot of lasers. I don't think I've ever actually seen a Crow, in or out of CW, using more than six laser weapons at the same time. That means that penalizing the energy hardpoints is at best very unlikely to be the right solution.


As far as the argument that the Timber Wolf shouldn't take small agility penalties, frankly I'm at a loss as to what else to do that's an acceptable reduction of the machine's overall capability to do pretty much everything (although generally not everything all at once). I would love to see it made a little bigger, but that apparently is not an option. Short of a ridiculously large array of small debuffs to all or nearly all weapons in the form of minor heat/duration/refire/spread/range penalties on pretty much every omnipod that can be mounted in the thing, there really just isn't any way other than agility degradation to accomplish a small blanket debuff.

Keep in mind that I'm recommending small penalties. I don't think even a 5% should be seen in any one place. The Timber Wolf has a 375 engine and deserves to act like it just as much as anything else with a huge power plant, but its overall quality is just a little bit too high and that's the safest and sanest place to put small debuffs to make it just a little bit less strong.

[Jazzbandit1313]

TL:DR need a reader's digest length version ploxorz

[Revis Volek]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 25 May 2015 - 10:58 PM, said:

....thereby inherently making them flat out better than non-omni 'mechs by allowing hardpoint and quirk customization with no drawback. You really didn't think this through.

With the quirk system already in the game, the proper solution there is to apply reductions in capability- measured reductions in capability in carefully moderated, initially small amounts, to the two omnimechs that stand out overmuch. Then, apply improvements- again, measured improvements in carefully moderated, initially small amounts, to the omnimechs that underperform the others (ideally actually using the quirk system as the primary method here) in a fashion similar to (but more careful than) that used to balance out the Inner Sphere 'mechs thus far. (And, ideally, going over that same method's application to Inner Sphere 'mechs and trying to even things out so there are less sufferers and superquirk 'mechs because really now.)

The whole quirk system exists for the purpose of being able to bring 'mechs that perform exceptionally well or poorly compared to alternative choices into line with the rest of the options, so that the 'mechs still perform and function differently in terms of manner but not in terms of base value.

Simply ignoring this system that's been put into the game in favor of removing the distinction between omnimechs and non-omnis is not only going against the attempts by PGI to establish a differing 'flavor' of customization between the two types of 'mechs, but also going against the stated goal of PGI in altering the comparative traits of Clan equipment- which was to make the differing choices equally valuable, but differently functioning.


By the logic you're using here, allowing any Inner Sphere 'mech to swap ferro and endo and mount whatever number of jump jets would also have made sure that all Inner Sphere 'mechs started appearing in roughly equivalent numbers. This is demonstratably not the case, given that prior to the Quirk system, many 'mechs that had jump jets were not being brought in where others without were, and the ability to swap ferro and endo on and off has always been available to all non-omni 'mechs. Despite this supposedly closer equivalency, a lot of chassis were just not seeing play very much (Awesome, Quickdraw, Raven 4X, Trebuchet, etc.) despite some of them being 'better' by this metric for their ability to mount jump jets.

You are talking about A LOT of mechanics and things here, not just the quirks system.

Some mechs are better then other because of Hitboxes, If they both have good hitboxes it comes down to speed, Twisting ability, etc.

Jump jets ONLY matter in this game because we can IN FACT shoot while jumping. This factor was not calculated into the TT game because poptarting was not a thing. So JJ's became MORE VALUABLE in this game or in FPS in general.

Another issue that hit THIS GAME ONLY is the Modeling and scaling being way off....the QKD was a mech hurt by these problems more so then other mechs but the NOVA is another that could loss a few pounds a inches in height and width.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

DarthRevis, on 26 May 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

You are talking about A LOT of mechanics and things here, not just the quirks system.

Of course I am. However, the quirks system can and should be used to compensate for this, just as it's used to compensate for unfavorable hitboxes/scaling/shaping in cases like the Highlander, Quickdraw, and Battlemaster, as well as the Thunderbolt, Dragon, et cetera, et cetera.

Part of the problem, I would say, is that thus far it's not being used enough in exactly that sort of capacity for Clan 'mechs, so we have weak outliers like the Summoner and Adder and strong outliers like the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf.

Another part of the problem is that in some cases the quirk system just isn't being used to address the key issue well enough, resulting in strange balance within a chassis- just look at the Dragon. The thing really needs the agility and durability improvements to overcome its giant volvo-hood nose, but the 1N has that silly double fire rate quirk on AC/5s that just throws everything out of whack and is ludicrously powerful besides. And that's not even mentioning the ridiculously devastating Huginn.

Just because the quirk system hasn't been used thus far in a way that properly and appropriately addresses such issues doesn't mean it can't be used in that way. It's just going to take some work and trial and error and frequent, small adjustments on the part of PGI.

Jazzbandit1313, on 26 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

TL:DR need a reader's digest length version ploxorz

For reader's digest version, go here: http://mwomercs.com/...-of-adjustment/

[Lugh]

Lightfoot, on 25 May 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

It's just tonnage. 29 tons for Timber Wolf, 23.5 tons for Stormcrow. All the Clan mechs should be allowed to swap Jumpjets, Endo, and FF armors and then you would see them all. There is no mystery except what does PGI think they are saving anyone from by locking this equipment on the other Clan mechs? Really they are just locking the use of these other Clan mechs from the players.

If you want Clan mechs brought down to IS performance and NOT allow all Clan tech to be inherently superior, you NEED to allow them the same level of customization as the IS mechs.

At the very least allow them to do Endosteel on everything.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Lugh, on 26 May 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

If you want Clan mechs brought down to IS performance and NOT allow all Clan tech to be inherently superior, you NEED to allow them the same level of customization as the IS mechs.

At the very least allow them to do Endosteel on everything.

At which point, again, you are allowing one set of 'mechs to change hardpoints at will, and not allowing the other, and thus you've got clan 'mechs as inherently superior without even involving the tech. Why is this so hard to follow?

The ability to alter the hardpoints on a chassis, even with a limited selection of options, is an advantage the omnimechs have over non-omni 'mechs. Allowing them this without some form of drawback is not a way to approach balance, nor is it a way to approach equal imbalance. It is a way to make one kind of 'mech inherently superior.

Allowing certain 'mechs to be inherently superior to other 'mechs is the root of the problem to begin with, and changing around which qualification allows some 'mechs to be better from the get-go is not going to solve anything.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 26 May 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[1453 R]

Jazzbandit1313, on 26 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

TL:DR need a reader's digest length version ploxorz

Want to participate in the conversation? Read the conversation. There's a lot of good information and analysis here; why should we chop ninety percent of it out so that you can offer an ill-informed opinion ignoring ninety percent of what's been said?

Or, TL;DR: TL;DR summaries are for lazies or losers.

Anyways.

After a week or so in the wild, the preliminary outlook on the Beamurder adjustment seems to be that it didn't really solve anything. Shocking, how it's turned out exactly the way everyone figured it would. Some reactionary crazies eliminated all energy weapons from the **Rs and have thusly rediscovered SRMs, some folks just swapped out a heat sink for another beam and ended up with the same overall DPS/HPS numbers as before, and other folks just sighed, ate the changes, and proceeded to go and play several matches still full of **Rs causing issues and a glut of beams.

In all three cases, people are still complaining about overpowered **R 'Mechs, when they even notice changes in their performance. Wrong nerf to the wrong stuff.

Hopefully another month or two of this will show that Piranha missed the mark, especially with the continued crushing dominance of the **R CW drop deck. The two are still high-performing but not overwhelming in Puglandia, which to me is an indication that they're close. CW is enormously more sensitive to performance-per-ton than the standard queue is (being an amazeballs 75-tonner in CW is actually not as good as being a great-but-not-amazeballs 50-tonner), but I would put forward that the regular queue's melting-pot-o'-everythang is a better barometer of overall balance than CW is, and in Puglandia Timber Wolves have honestly sorta become just another heavy. They're nasty, no doubt, but with ridiculous Spheroid quirks and the onset of the Hellbringer, they're simply competitive with other nasty heavy options in regular drops. It's a high-performing generalist with no obvious weaknesses but also no significant strengths beyond its flexibility, and that flexibility is a 'Mechlab strength, not a battlefield strength.

As Crobat stated earlier, and as I've expoused more than once, the TImber Wolf can indeed do just about anything. It cannot, however, do everything. Any given Timber Wolf is going to have to pick a thing and do it, at which point five seconds of TIG will show you what the particular TBR you're facing is and is not good at based on its loadout choice.

The Stormcrow is a more blatant offender, largely due to the lack of competing designs in the medium tier. The Nova is Just Not Good and the Ferret is in the same boat as the Cicada (which, given how much I love my Cicadas, makes it weird that I cannot find a way to make this damn thing work ), and the Spheroid medium tier is significantly less packed with overquirked monster beasts as their heavy tier. The SCR's torso agility is also a prominent enough trait that the majority of players fairly quickly focused onto it as the foundation of the SCR's overperformance issues. The fact that the SCR is one of precisely two Clan 'Mechs with a MWO Optimal Configuration (i.e. Endo, Ferro, and an appropriately-sized engine for its weight. So that would, at current, be the SCR and TBR) in the game at a very good drop deck tonnage for CW amplifies its abilities in that mode, but again, Puglandia players aren't especially over-terrified of Doomcrows.

Wary, certainly, but without the amplifying effects of CW's intense tonnage sensitivity and intolerance for speed differentials (the '106kph murderblob' problem), the Stormcrow is generally just a bit overdone, and not the firebreathing hellbeast CW folks would have the MWO population believe it is.

Neither case warrants huge penalties, or a total overhaul of the Omni construction rules, or any of this other high-handed hornswoggle. The TBR may well be fine as is (assuming the Beamurder nonsense is revoked, save for the TBR-A LT) with strong competitors like the Cauldron-Born and Black Knight coming in, and with the quirks system available to haul things up. I would prefer the TBR be adjusted down a bit and then let some of the wind out of the overquirked ridicu-'Mechs' sails, but either way. The Stormcrow could lose between ten and twenty points of base twist arc without dying, as well as any inherent/quirked twist speed bonuses over what its 330XL naturally gives it, and at that point leave it alone for a while and see if that was enough.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lugh, on 26 May 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

If you want Clan mechs brought down to IS performance and NOT allow all Clan tech to be inherently superior, you NEED to allow them the same level of customization as the IS mechs.

At the very least allow them to do Endosteel on everything.

So.. we should be able to alter hardpoints on IS mechs as well then? So they have the same level of customization?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Neither case warrants huge penalties, or a total overhaul of the Omni construction rules, or any of this other high-handed hornswoggle. The TBR may well be fine as is (assuming the Beamurder nonsense is revoked, save for the TBR-A LT) with strong competitors like the Cauldron-Born and Black Knight coming in, and with the quirks system available to haul things up. I would prefer the TBR be adjusted down a bit and then let some of the wind out of the overquirked ridicu-'Mechs' sails, but either way. The Stormcrow could lose between ten and twenty points of base twist arc without dying, as well as any inherent/quirked twist speed bonuses over what its 330XL naturally gives it, and at that point leave it alone for a while and see if that was enough.

A thousand times, this.

[Shiven]

Good write-up OP but I have to stress a point.

I would argue that the reasons the TBR and SCR are so good has less to do with hitboxes or soft stats like torso twisting. The grand majority of players aren't even capable of fully utilizing defensive tactics like twisting.

I believe it has more to do with the overall mobility the clan mechs have with their XL engines. The TBR for example moves 14kph faster than a TDR plus the TBR has both more armor and firepower. It's 27 kph faster than a STK! has nearly comparable armor and alpha firepower to boot.

To put it bluntly - the timberwolf is faster than IS mediums, has more fire power than IS heavies and the only comparable mech (firepower) is a 85 ton assault which is considerably less mobile.

This is further brought out in CW as mobility becomes a more important factor. (It's a lot easier to move in a death ball with clan mechs that all run 81-100kph)

Edited by Shiven, 26 May 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I agree that these things are also points, but again, Shiven- I'm comparing their performance and predominance mainly to other Clan 'mechs. This topic isn't about bringing Clan 'mechs into line with IS 'mechs, it's about bringing Clan 'mechs into line with one another.

Bringing Clan and IS into line with one another is a whole other kettle of fish, because you have to get into things like the Clan tendency to run at the same speed where pilots in Inner Sphere 'mechs have been so far encouraged to operate at wildly differing speeds from one another, the value of simpler-to-use weapons like the IS lasers with the shorter burntimes or the single-shell autocannon, and so on and so forth.

Frankly, that's something better done once the IS 'mechs are all roughly of comparable base capability, and the Clan 'mechs are also all of roughly comparable base capability, each within their own technology base. When we can say 'a Nova is a comparable choice to a Stormcrow' and 'a Summoner is a comparable choice to a Timber Wolf', then we're ready to look at mass balancing the technologies of one side against those of the other side.