431 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Xeraphale, on 13 May 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure there was something said about the gap between rounds fired per salvo was going to be reduced, thus reducing spread of Clan AC shots.

It needs doing because clan ACs are almost worthless at anything over 400m

Unless you have multiples they are worthless under 400m as well.

[Dino Might]

I have no significant complaints about Clan ACs. The Clan UAC-20, since it had it's jam chance fixed, is fantastic! Throw one of those on an Adder with a couple small lasers and you have a heavy killing machine. The problem is with people who try to use them to chase and hunt down lights. Sure I'll take my shots of opportunity on that Raven or Firestarter, but I'm not expecting to do much. Clan ACs excel and putting out massive damage in short windows on big mechs. I use my Adder to hunt heavies and assaults to great success. When an enemy banshee thinks it can just facetank me, and I pop out from cover and deliver 40 damage to the CT in about 2 seconds, it's an eye-opener to him.

[IraqiWalker]

Nuwa, on 12 May 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

So after much thought I have decided to finally make a post. Clanners have Ultra ACs and normal ACs. The difference being that ultras can double tap for a chance of jamming. I much prefer IS ACs because the single shot AC5 putting 5 points of dmg to a single point is much better than a clan AC5 putting out 5 points of dmg in a burst of shells just to land on enemy mechs all over the place. This has cause the laser meta that we have today in CW. I think that the clan ACs need a major overhaul to bring them up to par with IS ACs and maybe that will bring in a new age of meta to CW. The clan ACs just don't feel as strong as they could be. I am not saying make them stronger than IS just buff them to make them not so...splatty. I feel like I have a ballistic SRM when I use clan ACs. But I leave it to the community to put in their 2 cents and maybe...JUST MAYBE the devs might see it and change their thoughts on the original design that they put in place for clan ballistics.

So you don't seem to understand asymmetric balance at all.

Here's a simple breakdown of it:

IS get PP FLD, and variable engines. (We're much better at close range combat)

Clans Get DoT weapons, and better long range engagements, and skirmishing, but they get fixed XLs, that don't die to ST destruction.

So the Clans have better Lasers, and almost better missiles across the board.

The IS gets better ACs, and better LRMs (in terms of damage).

Do you see what's going on here? We have a very delicate balance, and we're trying to improve it, not break it by making clan mechs good at both DoT, and PP FLD.

The clan ACs, and UACs are fine. You just need to understand that they are different from IS ones, and learn to deal with that.

Just like we learn to deal with energy weapons that are half the range of yours, and XL engines that pop the second an ST goes out.

[Joseph Mallan]

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

So you don't seem to understand asymmetric balance at all.

Here's a simple breakdown of it:

IS get PP FLD, and variable engines. (We're much better at close range combat)

Clans Get DoT weapons, and better long range engagements, and skirmishing, but they get fixed XLs, that don't die to ST destruction.

So the Clans have better Lasers, and almost better missiles across the board.

The IS gets better ACs, and better LRMs (in terms of damage).

Do you see what's going on here? We have a very delicate balance, and we're trying to improve it, not break it by making clan mechs good at both DoT, and PP FLD.

The clan ACs, and UACs are fine. You just need to understand that they are different from IS ones, and learn to deal with that.

Just like we learn to deal with energy weapons that are half the range of yours, and XL engines that pop the second an ST goes out.

Not everyone would see that as balanced... I almost missed it myself. Nice example though.

[IraqiWalker]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 May 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

Not everyone would see that as balanced... I almost missed it myself. Nice example though.

Like I said, we're trying to get it to a well balanced place. Breaking a massive chunk of it (giving clans superior PPFLD, on top of superior DoT), is the exact opposite of improving it.

[Joseph Mallan]

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 04:16 AM, said:

Like I said, we're trying to get it to a well balanced place. Breaking a massive chunk of it (giving clans superior PPFLD, on top of superior DoT), is the exact opposite of improving it.

True, but I still feel the CUAC/CAC are painfully UP. ACs are supposed to be painful weapons to be hit by. I just don't get that from our Clan version.

[Zordicron]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 May 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

I used those UAC20s... They are not fine. They are weak sauce. I see a Clan UAC20 and know I'm in for IS UAC5 damage.

See my previous post here to understand why.

[Apocryph0n]

What exactly is the reason to create a thread about a thing that Russ has confirmed will be done days ago?

[Knyx]

Anarcho, on 12 May 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

Why not UACs with fast bursts, more ammo per ton and lighter and regular acs with pp dmg and heavier?

This is the best Idea here, just to reiterate

C-UACs should get a velocity increase (in reality IS UAC and AC velocities should get a decrease as well as all +velocity quirks removed). More ammo per ton.

C-ACs should keep same velocity and instead of having this multi shot burst, have it one shot just like IS ACs but a slightly delayed shot. like *click fire button* 0.75s passes and then it actually fires.

I think C-LBXs need to have a major weight reduction and more ammo per ton


C-Gauss is superior on paper, but when you have quirk gods on your side, IS gauss becomes superior.

Edited by Knyx, 13 May 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Apocryph0n, on 13 May 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

What exactly is the reason to create a thread about a thing that Russ has confirmed will be done days ago?

It's the MW:O Forum. Is there really a reason after that?

[Joseph Mallan]

Eldagore, on 12 May 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

What clammers really want is clan ballistic HSR fixed.

The AC's don't do the full dmg. not all the time. 1 shell hits out of 5 gives you a red crosshair, even if the other 4 dont register.

Last year, tryhards all said "lulz lasers, n00b weapons splash dmg everywhere, lurn to PPC/AC5 n00b"

nowdays, they all say "lulz clan ballistic splash dmg everywhere, lurn to laservomit n00b"

So, lasers went from "LOL" to the overpowering meta because..... the HSR was fixed last year, significantly.

Sure they changed some durations.... for IS. Clan lasers have longer durations then some of the clan ballistics. And yet, the dmg "doesnt splash all over the place" like all the loln00bs were doing last year?

C'mon man, the only thing that has changed is the HSR. lasers used to do 0-100% of the dmg on any given shot. Terribly unreliable, and every wasted, non registered hit of the hitscan still cost the heat. People played single shot ballistics, because all of the dmg most of the time was much better then some of the dmg all the time(average about half) especially in a poptart meta, or hill hump/peekaboo whatever. Alpha and cool, if your PPC's didnt register one out of 10, it was annoying, but the other 9 did full dmg. If your lasers were averaging 50% dmg, that means 5 of the ten actually did full dmg in the end net result.


EVERY META EVER HAS BEEN DRIVEN BY THE HSR.

Even before HSR, people used what was most reliable. PPC were actually BUFFED in early open beta to get people to use them. Once we got ballistic HSR, they became really popular, and the chain of never ending nerfs on them began.

Right now, lasers are the most reliable, and at the same time easiest to use/aim. it is no wonder they have taken over.


So again, what we want is for the clan AC's to actually register full dmg. Burst durations are shorter then the lasers are. that is important to remember when people spout off about "splash dmg all over". If the duration of the bburst is shorter then a laser, how is it the AC's splash all over and the laser doesnt? ANSWER: it doesnt, it just is doing the OL' 0-100% dmg trick lasers were doing last year.

Who wants to mount a 10 ton gun that only does 50% of its dmg on average to the target? That is why we have clammer laser boats. because the lasers do the dmg they are supposed to.

i know it's not as fun to talk about something that players have no input on, compared to playing spreadsheet warrior. But thats the issue. Want to make suggestions to try to circumvent the issue? Go ahead. PLayers did that for over a year when SRM were totally broken, and it didnt do ****. Nobody fielded the things until the SRM fix revived the weapons, no matter how much the dmg got buffed etc, when they didnt hit, it didnt matter, nobody used them. Soon as they registered, BAM, SRM brawlers, SRM brawlers everywhere. So go ahead, make suggestions about spreadsheet changes to clan AC's, it wont do any good untl the HSR is actually fixed.

Its a good post. But Clan ACs don't scare me... they don't even intimidate me unless I see more than 3 of a kind. A single CUAC20 should make me hesitate engaging that Mech by myself. It don't. Twin CUAC20s makes me take a moment if I'm not in an assault.

And Laser vomit as it is called feels about right to me when I am facing a Clanner.

[IraqiWalker]

Knyx, on 13 May 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

This is the best Idea here, just to reiterate

C-UACs should get a velocity increase (in reality IS AC velocities should get a decrease as well as all +velocity quirks removed). More ammo per ton.

C-ACs should keep same velocity and instead of having this multi shot burst, have it one shot just like IS ACs but a slightly delayed shot. like *click fire button* 0.75s passes and then it actually fires.

I think C-LBXs need to have a major weight reduction and more ammo per ton


C-Gauss is superior on paper, but when you have quirk gods on your side, IS gauss becomes superior.

Do you also want IS lasers to have max range of 20meters?

There's only 1 mech in the entire IS arsenal, where the Gauss might perform better than on a clan mech, it's the HBK-GI, and even then, Clan Gauss is protected by CaseII, and takes up fewer slots, and tons.

Also, Why on earth would the clans have a firing delay on their ACs? Gauss charge for ACs?

Look, in actuality, clan ACs are exactly how all ACs should have functioned from day 1. It's just that now we have the multi shot factor as a balancing mechanism, and it works.

Clan ACs are lighter, and smaller, and do DoT (what the clans specialize in), while IS ACs are bigger, and heavier, and do short range burst damage (what IS excels at).

I think Getting HSR fixed properly should be step one, before any talking about changing operational mechanics.

[Knyx]

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

Do you also want IS lasers to have max range of 20meters?

There's only 1 mech in the entire IS arsenal, where the Gauss might perform better than on a clan mech, it's the HBK-GI, and even then, Clan Gauss is protected by CaseII, and takes up fewer slots, and tons.

Also, Why on earth would the clans have a firing delay on their ACs? Gauss charge for ACs?

Look, in actuality, clan ACs are exactly how all ACs should have functioned from day 1. It's just that now we have the multi shot factor as a balancing mechanism, and it works.

Clan ACs are lighter, and smaller, and do DoT (what the clans specialize in), while IS ACs are bigger, and heavier, and do short range burst damage (what IS excels at).

I think Getting HSR fixed properly should be step one, before any talking about changing operational mechanics.

In MWO velocity =/= Range since there is no bullet drop / gravity effect on the weapons. So reducing velocities on IS ballistics and removing most of the ballistic quirks is exactly what needs to be done, as well as increasing ammo per ton on clan ballistics this would be the simplest way to balance.

There are more mechs that utilize ballistic quirks enuf to make the IS gauss superior.


Also as far as the firing delay, no not a charge. I know, maybe you don't know how quick 0.75s is. A charge would be that you have to hold and release. Where as this would be click and release like normal. It would also just be for ACs since they would be changed to a single round PP damage like IS but the firing delay is what would make them different and increase skill floor+cap


As far as IS lasers which I don't know why you brought it up? Perhaps you are getting to emotional? Math has already been provided time and time again that shows IS lasers are in fact superior even pre-quirk

You already explained to yourself exactly why there is such a large balance problem. You simply cannot have a multi faction PVP game and give one faction a monopoly on burst damage. In PVP burst damage is king, by far, no if ands or buts. Now take quirks into effect, clans don't even have much of a range advantage and sometimes not at all (range isn't even that important due to map design), and in many cases due to heat vs duration IS weapons actually completely out perform clan weapons in DPS AS WELL.

Edited by Knyx, 13 May 2015 - 04:54 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Knyx, on 13 May 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

In MWO velocity =/= Range since there is no bullet drop / gravity effect on the weapons. So reducing velocities on IS ballistics and removing most of the ballistic quirks is exactly what needs to be done, as well as increasing ammo per ton on clan ballistics this would be the simplest way to balance.

There are more mechs that utilize ballistic quirks enuf to make the IS gauss superior.


Also as far as the firing delay, no not a charge. I know, maybe you don't know how quick 0.75s is. A charge would be that you have to hold and release. Where as this would be click and release like normal. It would also just be for ACs since they would be changed to a single round PP damage like IS but the firing delay is what would make them different and increase skill floor+cap


As far as IS lasers which I don't know why you brought it up? Perhaps you are getting to emotional? Math has already been provided time and time again that shows IS lasers are in fact superior even pre-quirk

I did not talk about ballistic range, and I know projectile speed does not equal range (in the game, in real life, it impacts it heavily).

The 0.75 seconds delay is not worth it. It's not really much of a handicap considering the benefits gained from swapping the DoT mechanic to a PP FLD mechanic.

If you want single shot ACs, play IS. If you want longer ranged, better lasers, play clans (I'd love to see the math that shows me how at 600 meters the C-ERML is inferior to the IS ML, or even at 500 meters. Especially without quirks.)

If your statement about energy weapons is correct, then why is it that only the TDR with MPLs is considered a competitive IS energy build for heavies? The only reason that mech is so good, and is top tier, is because of it's MPL quirks. Before the quirks popped up, if you took a thunderbolt to a competitive match, people would laugh at you.

For the record I brought up the IS MLs as an exaggerated example parodying how crazy some of your suggestions are.

Let me put it in simpler terms. Clans should not have PP FLD. It's one of very few things that allows the IS to compete with the clans. The firing delay of 0.75 seconds is not a good solution. Any firing delay is a bad solution in this case.

Clan ballistics are lighter, and smaller, but are DoT, not PP FLD (also why should they get extra ammo, ON TOP of being made PP FLD?)

[Lily from animove]

Mister Blastman, on 12 May 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

The 'mechs actually felt meaty and big in MW 3.

MW3 is one of the best MW's form the desgn and mehanics it had, it was well done at all, MW4 was, meh. Shooting big Ac's in MW felt great ^^

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 May 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

A single CUAC20 should make me hesitate engaging that Mech by myself. It don't. Twin CUAC20s makes me take a moment if I'm not in an assault.

A single IS AC20 (unless it is 4G level quirked) does not make me hesitate either. In some ways it is more welcome because it does not shake you as long as Clan CUAC20.

Lily from animove, on 13 May 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

MW3 is one of the best MW's form the desgn and mehanics it had, it was well done at all, MW4 was, meh. Shooting big Ac's in MW felt great ^^

I personally loved the MW3 pulse lasers. Something PGI had unfortunately did not follow up on.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 May 2015 - 05:15 AM.

[Knyx]

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

I did not talk about ballistic range, and I know projectile speed does not equal range (in the game, in real life, it impacts it heavily).

The 0.75 seconds delay is not worth it. It's not really much of a handicap considering the benefits gained from swapping the DoT mechanic to a PP FLD mechanic.

If you want single shot ACs, play IS. If you want longer ranged, better lasers, play clans (I'd love to see the math that shows me how at 600 meters the C-ERML is inferior to the IS ML, or even at 500 meters. Especially without quirks.)

If your statement about energy weapons is correct, then why is it that only the TDR with MPLs is considered a competitive IS energy build for heavies? The only reason that mech is so good, and is top tier, is because of it's MPL quirks. Before the quirks popped up, if you took a thunderbolt to a competitive match, people would laugh at you.

For the record I brought up the IS MLs as an exaggerated example parodying how crazy some of your suggestions are.

Let me put it in simpler terms. Clans should not have PP FLD. It's one of very few things that allows the IS to compete with the clans. The firing delay of 0.75 seconds is not a good solution. Any firing delay is a bad solution in this case.

Clan ballistics are lighter, and smaller, but are DoT, not PP FLD (also why should they get extra ammo, ON TOP of being made PP FLD?)

Whether or not it is enough of a handicap (the 0.75s delay) is pure speculation and opinion, neither of us can prove that. However as my last paragraph explained that you cannot give one faction a monopoly on burst damage in a faction based PVP game. So clans should have a PPFLD option with only a slight drawback in some other area (to make up for being lighter and smaller) even tho IS have super quirks.

If you have problem finding the math of how IS lasers are superior to clans (even pre quirked) then I feel bad for you, and now know I have to watch my words to avoid insulting you. Just as I feel bad for you if you think IS only has 1 competitive energy based heavy.... just lol


Clan players' definition of competitive: Can compete with IS variants of equal or same tonnage with most optimal setups on both sides.

IS players' definition of competitive: Can completely wreck any clan variant in the same weight class

[Thorqemada]

If you let me i will eagerly change the ISAC10 and ISAC20 on all my Mech for Clan-Ultra-ACs with multiple bullets per trigger.

Give it to me - WANT!!!!!!!

Edited by Thorqemada, 13 May 2015 - 05:19 AM.

[Insects]

Ok here is the deal, Clams can have IS AC's. But in exchange IS get XL engines which survive a side torso loss.

Otherwise just enjoy the unique characteristics of the two sides, play both.

[Knyx]

joelmuzz, on 13 May 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

Ok here is the deal, Clams can have IS AC's. But in exchange IS get XL engines which survive a side torso loss.

Otherwise just enjoy the unique characteristics of the two sides, play both.

I play both, and I know for a fact I am not the only person with an alt acct for the other faction (because of CW)

However the point still remains, and there is reason why no other PVP game gives one side a monopoly on burst damage. It simply does not and will never work.

As far as that trade off, I will raise you. Clans get IS ACs, IS access to clan XL engines AND lose most of their quirks on all variants. Shake on it?

Edited by Knyx, 13 May 2015 - 05:32 AM.