195 replies to this topic

[Faith McCarron]

I just want to be sure the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bathwater, here. It's easy for the trolls to just come in, go haywire, and get the discussion closed down. But it's a discussion that needs to be had, and needs to stay as part of the conversation.

[Faith McCarron]

Domoneky, on 18 May 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

I found this little Gem

By the way, what's your point with that?

[Steve Pryde]

warner2, on 14 May 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

Joanna was pretty bad ass, as I remember.

Joanna was the mother of badass. Diana

Spoiler

Pryde

followed her like a little "sister". :-P

[SnagaDance]

Mentioned twice I'd like to get a bit deeper into Cassie Suthorn, who I consider a very enjoyable character.

She is in no way a perfect character, though her martial skills are excellent her social skills are terrible unless she chooses to act in a certain way for one of her undercover jobs. At the same time she is deeply emotionally scarred on the inside.

Instead of leaving her as some kind of robotic murder machine (something male characters can gravitate to in bad fiction, or just about any 80's action movie ) her character actually develops through the course of three books. So she turns from a socia/psychopath, into a woman who learns to deal with her past, interact with other people on a basis of trust and who can accept her own beauty as more than just a facade.

One of the best examples in this regard is the efforts of Kali MacDougall in trying to become her friend and help Cassie become more human. In a nice parody the pretty blond haired mechwarrior with a big helping in the chest department is disliked by Cassie for her looks and how she 'flaunts' them (piloting an Atlas mech also triggered traumas). But Kali recognizes this and even confronts Cassie with it by saying something like "You must think that I asked god for a double helping in the chest department and that he could just skimp on the brains". Confronting Cassie with her own prejudice and subsequently pointing out that her looks don't define her (and everyone who falls for the dumb blond stereotype will already be a big step behind her).

Victor Milan does an amazing amount of character development in his books considering the number of pages and how they have a basic requirement for stompy mech action. Sure he uses a lot of stereotype characters (the redneck cowboy, the ranchero unit leader etc.) as well but often with a humoristic twist and its a good tool to use when you're limited in the amount of story you can tell.

Did you read the novels by Victor Milan Faith McCarron, and if yes, what did you think of them?

[SnagaDance]

Domoneky, on 18 May 2015 - 02:04 AM, said:

I found this little Gem

I'm guessing Domoneky is pointing out the stereotype portrayel of buff men on this cover.

He could also be referring to the absolute Mary Sue qualities of the Black Thorns mercenary unit and their completely unrealistic winning against a far bigger Clan force (twice) without any true tactical brilliance. I've found the books to be bad and they are amongst the few BattleTech novels that I got rid off for being downright aweful.

Or, in a complete twist he could be pointing out the power of interpretive monkey dance as a way of determining Clan trials.

[reign]

Anyone mention
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stacy_Church

She was a bad ass till the end.

Also had one of my favorite mechs the Zeus X

[Gladewolf]

..Well the first step might be to not tear down all the female characters that are in battletech. Lori getting back into the saddle even though she was twice almost burned to death(you might want to think about what that might actually feel like....PTSD anyone?) is interpreted as toughness by many...
Is being a former ace pilot and Ruler of almost a quarter of the worlds in the inner sphere somehow just not good enough for womanhood?! .....And what exactly is wrong with a commander from THE most celebrated unit entire battletech universe also being a hotty?!
What exactly WOULD be acceptable?

[rolly]

As an adjunct to the discussion:

Mens Rights group calls for boycott of Mad Max:

http://www.themarysu...mra-to-the-max/

I think the OP has a point here. Many of the women in the BT universe, were accessories to the warrior type protagonists or streamed into sterotypes. Even the original Red Corsair was glossed over and only mentioned that Katrina was a mechwarrior first. Natasha Kerensky was a boy fantasy warrior icon until she got older and not as sexy for the nerd masses then she was just portrayed as bitchy and driven and hard.

Then again, solutions in this universe are generally solved by big stompy mech combat. Not concensus, or stronger social network ties. Nor would the simple combat be so fun to the nerdy mind if it were replaced with girl clique bullying or emotional manipulation. So I think its safe to say that with over 25 years of history, it was mostly tailored to one gender audience.

Of a few female characters that come to my mind:
Johanna was also portrayed as old and stubborn as per clan society labelling,in the end she drew strength from that label though it didn't improve her standing, it did influence characters like Marthe Pryde (who was more progressive with her clan and successful) and even Peri who helped uncover the Scientist Caste plot. Though potentially good and strong female protagonists/antagonists such as Maeve Wolf (whom we'll note is a clone of Jaime Wolf) or Marthe Pryde don't get a lot of exposure in the novels sadly.

Another interview adds to this. In a recent interview with Ronda Rousey (UFC Fighter) an interviewer noted that she often gets questions or asked to demonstrate her ability to fight as a successful female fighter in a mostly male UFC. Here in BT, its not questioned at all. Which is at least a good thing about it. If you're a mechwarrior, regardless of gender, you're either good or dead/dispossessed.

[Faith McCarron]

Excellent point Snaga, I had actually forgotten about that whole little interplay between Cassie and Kali, and you've framed it very well. Cassie was always an interesting character, I think my initial reading may have been put off by the MacGyver-syndrome she displays (always being able to take out a mech with a wad of chewing gun, a paper clip, and a bottlecap), and it might be worth a re-reading of the Comacho's Caballero's books for me to get a better grip on them.

Stacy Church has possibilities. There's a pretty big playground left to explore with her, so the jury is still out. and correct me if I'm wrong, does she get any treatment other than in the Wolf/Blake Starterbook?

Gladewolf...I assume you're talking about Katrina Steiner with the "ruler of a quarter of the worlds of the Inner Sphere" reference. I would LOVE to get some more in-depth stuff on Katrina. Her getting the throne, her Red Corsair days, both have endless possibilities for fleshing her out into a killer character. But as of right now, those are just notes in her biography. The treatment we see her getting in the novels is her selling her daughter off like property to Hanse Davion in exchange for an alliance.

And since you asked, what WOULD exactly be a lot more acceptable would be a little less snarkiness in your comments.

[reign]

Faith McCarron, on 18 May 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Stacy Church has possibilities. There's a pretty big playground left to explore with her, so the jury is still out. and correct me if I'm wrong, does she get any treatment other than in the Wolf/Blake Starterbook?

• Jihad Secrets: The Blake Documents
  
• Starterbook: Wolf and Blake
  
• Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade

They refit the Zeus 2x for her in all. But she has a pretty illustrious career fighting Jihadists.

[Faith McCarron]

Also while we're on the topic, and someone just mentioned how while Ronda Rousey is questioned about being a fighter now, but female warriors seem to be accept as not unusual in the Btech era, what cultures in Btech are more on an even footing in terms of gender and which aren't?

I know on the one extreme you have the Magestracy of Canopus. On the other extreme you seem to have the Draconis Combine.

[Gladewolf]

No snark intended. I just find it alarming that your very first act was to discredit the very diversity you crave......and just as some women are fighter pilots today......some are housewives....and some are statesmen..and yes, some STILL accept arranged marriages to far less than what amounts to kings. There are weak female roles...there are also many weak male roles. So what I am asking, with again, no snark intended. What exactly makes a more diverse universe in your mind?

[Faith McCarron]

All the 'heroes' that we have had, the ones that we have traced their lives across novels, through hardship and overcoming their flaws, have been the male ones. What I'd like to see is more female characters explored in depth on a level like we got for someone like Justin Allard or Victor Davion. I think the closest example we have come up with in our discussion so far is Cassie Suthorn.

[Gladewolf]

Ok, fair call. I suppose Natasha really does only have one actual book of her own, but I still think you are selling Lori K short. Slave girl to unit XO is nothing to sneer at on the hero scale.

[Faith McCarron]

lol, I think the whole "slave girl" thing kind of kills your case.

[TeteSP]

Please I NEVER seen the animated series,no clues about that series in Spain. All series in Spain in the timeline was Thundercats,Saint Seiya and He Man. Well and Transformers. No Battletech series

Edited by TeteSP, 18 May 2015 - 10:20 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

The animated series was bad. It was a blatant marketing ploy to sell toys to kids. The dialogue was bad, the storylines were a hodge-podge mashup of various things from the novels done in a cheesy way, and the characters were terrible. About the only thing it had going for it was the CGI effects for 'enhanced imaging', which must have been cool at the time.

[Gladewolf]

That's exactly the thing...it makes my case. You want depth? Here's a character that had to earn her stripes and overcome her past. I was annoyed that PGI chose to honour her with a locust, when she spend far more time as a Shadow Hawk pilot. I assume they did that because they can't release the Marauder...,

[SnagaDance]

Faith McCarron, on 18 May 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

Cassie was always an interesting character, I think my initial reading may have been put off by the MacGyver-syndrome she displays (always being able to take out a mech with a wad of chewing gun, a paper clip, and a bottlecap), and it might be worth a re-reading of the Comacho's Caballero's books for me to get a better grip on them.

Good pint on the MacGyver syndrome, and this certainly irks a bit, especially in the beginning. Throughout the books though you also pick up on how she not only spends a lot of time excercising her martial arts but also mech maintainance, focussing especially on how to make them stop working.

Its like asking a tanker how he'd take out an enemy tank versus a mechanic who is skilled in maintaining said tank. The first would tell you the best place to shoot it with his own tank, while the latter would open up some panelling, twist and pull something and turn it into an oversized doorstopper.

Her amazing martial arts skills can be a bit more jarring in my opinion, though even here versus very skilled opponents the reasons for her overcoming them are explained, like her have no qualms about fighting dirty, or the cockyness of DEST troopers combined with their reliance on (and limits of) their 360 degree visors. At the same time people like Johnny Chang or Wolf Girl are able to defeat her (to her intense chagrin).

Btw, I'd LOVE to have a book series that would delve deeper into Katrina Steiner and her Red Corsair days. Some nice pre-4th succession war setting. Going by memory they could also pay attention to the Marik civil war with Janos, Anton and the Dragoons and Maximilian Liao's meddling. And they could focus on the death of Hanse Davion's brother versus the combine and his unlikely ascension to the throne, highlight the bad blood between Davion and Kurita, and making it clear how it only was Maximilian Liao's schemes that made Hanse turn against him in the 4th succession war instead of stomping Kurita (who WOULD have been stomped, though now they were allowed a breather which Theodore could use to prepare and win the war of 39).

Edited by SnagaDance, 18 May 2015 - 11:31 PM.

[rolly]

Gladewolf, on 18 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

That's exactly the thing...it makes my case. You want depth? Here's a character that had to earn her stripes and overcome her past. I was annoyed that PGI chose to honour her with a locust, when she spend far more time as a Shadow Hawk pilot. I assume they did that because they can't release the Marauder...,

Sadly I doubt that. PGI can't even release the Dire Wolf - Widowmaker as a Hero mech (for what it really is) Which reminds me, from what I recall, do any of the Hero mechs actually relate to a female Mechwarrior? Heck if they do they need a Ranna Kerensky Warhawk or a Hero Mad Dog for Johanna or even a Turkina for Marthe Pryde

On a side note - it does stick in my sociological craw that the MWO Community as a whole bashes the male Community Managers a lot yet, with the new female Community Manager, there seems to be a lot less vitriol directly at her. It reminds me how we as a society assume women are better Administrators/Personal Assistant/Secretaries subconsciously. But I digress.