757 replies to this topic

[KursedVixen]

It's really too fast paced for old people.

And no I'm not.

PGi needs to fix this game fast or soon Clanners won't be the only ones whining.

[Fenris Kell]

lol, I feel like I am on a roller coaster here, there's good and bad in this news. Good: The news came out before I bought the TW from the gift shop so that saved me cash. Bad: I feel bad for my friends that bought it. Good: Rolling the Clans just got even easier in CW, my Thunder-Wub only has to be exposed for a fraction of the time that the TW does to do full dmg due to longer burn time! Bad: Clan opponents will dry up; since the clans will have an even harder time competing with us, making CW matches harder to come by. Good: Start chewing up the other IS factions.

[Shabahh Kerensky]

I wish the Timberwolf would get positive missile quirks. I play the Prime near stock. Just took off the mpulse laser and the 2 heatsinks for ammo. It's no where near as op as the laser vomit builds and now it's gonna suck more.

You gotta give reasons to have people put other weapons besides lasers on the timberwolf. And that doesn't mean punishing the only real competent weapon besides the gauss rifle.

Edited by Shabahh Kerensky, 17 May 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[Hayek Lahiri]

Can PGI allow a mod that replaces all Clan weapon audio files with Duty Calls' "Boring!"? Because after this patch, being a Clanner is going to be a pain in the ass.

[ScarecrowES]

I guess i just don't understand. If there are certain builds you want to discourage, why not focus attention on adding positive quirks to encourage others builds? Why would you simply add negative perks that harm players that don't run the builds you are trying to curb? I assume like others do that the t-wolf changes are aimed at the 9-slot energy variant. Ok, fine. But all my t-wolf varient have a nice mix of weapons (lasers and lrms on my prime, lasers and srms on my C, and lasers and ballistics on my S). I'm further baffled by the stormcrowes. The prime is a laser boat. So you're going to punish players from using lasers? I have the C and D as well, and neither of those focus on laser damage,but both have lasers as secondary weapons. Both models use the slots they're given to great effect, and neither are laser focused.

None of my builds are meta, all have a variety of weapon types, and all will suffer greatly in these changes even though none of them are builds you've intended to nerd with these changes. My builds already have the variety you wanted to encourage. All you've done is ensure that my clan builds are even less effective in CW, and that I'll stop playing CW altogether because of it.

A better solution would be to build positive buffs for non-energy slots. Give ACs a buff... less jam chance for U ACs and less spread and faster cool down for lbxs. Give missiles a buff... faster cool down and reduced heat and spread. Give a little love to the ppc. Don't merely throw a 15% duration and cool down nerf on all models just because you want to discourage a few particular builds.

[Aegic]

Here is hoping that the early release notes will be changed for some reason due to the obvious backfire.

[KursedVixen]

all clanners could just quit for a week or untill PGi decides to change it. There are other mechwarrior games to play.

[moneyBURNER]

I would think the process of balancing mechs would be fairly straightforward and make sense in both real world and gameworld terms, as follows:

- Scale the mech and adjust its hitboxes to be roughly normalized with all the mechs in its tonnage class. During playtesting, if a mech is particularly vulnerable in certain areas due to its shape or hardpoint placement/importance, adjust the hitboxes and/or increase that section's hitpoints.

- If a mech has highly favourable hardpoints, then counterbalance that with reasonable reductions in acceleration/agility, negative armour/structure and heat quirks (more weapons/hardpoints in the same package = less robust heatsink/chassis traits), and adjustments to hitboxes and perhaps scaling.

- If a mech has a lack of hardpoints, then it should be accepted that some variants just aren't comparable in firepower. Buff other aspects of that mech: agility, hitpoints, heatsink efficiency, module capacity, sensor quirks, etc.

Adjust traits to maintain plausibility and consistency in the universe, and simplify the game by minimizing weapon quirks.

Weapons should be balanced separately. There are many ideas on how to do that independantly of chassis balancing.

As it is now, it's become a huge mess.

[Shabahh Kerensky]

What's funny too is when they first started giving positive quirks to clan mechs, they were so small and pointless, like that awesome machine gun range quirk. They wanted to start doing quirks in increments. Apparently that didn't stop from slamming down the nerf hammer on clan mechs.

[KursedVixen]

The timberwolf is an all around good mech remove that and it's no longer a timberwolf.

The timberwolf is a good mech ,but NOT invincible it's just a good all round mech it's got speed, armor and a decent not op loadout of mixed weapon types

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

KursedVixen, on 17 May 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

all clanners could just quit for a week or untill PGi decides to change it. There are other mechwarrior games to play.

I always wondered if a boycott movement like this would work, not in the form of quitting, but in the form all the clans coming together and choosing one IS side to represent, then using their dusty IS mechs to completely destroy another IS faction. Then there'd at least be more light on the matter of if the mech makes the pilot, or the pilot makes the mech.

[Splatshot]

I find it funny that the stock build of the Storm Crow Prime will be unplayable.

Awesome.

Edited by Splatshot, 17 May 2015 - 08:37 PM.

[Sevronis]

Dangit. I really didn't want to believe it when I was hearing Timberwolf was getting a nerf. Maybe if try-hards weren't always doing those damn meta builds it wouldn't be needed. At first I saw the laser duration increase quirk and I was like "lol" and then saw energy heat gen got increased too and I was like "dammit." I don't even use laser vomit builds but now my hot dual ppcs just got hotter >< (my traditional build in all MW games for a timber was 2 ERPPC, 2 Med Pulse, and 2 Streak-6). Now it seems they just made one of the most iconic clan mechs in lore, let alone my favorite mech since MW2, into a joke. I know why it was done. I understand why, and frankly I'm all for trying to fight against the meta laser builds, but they even screwed over even my non-meta build.

I really hope it's not as bad as I'm thinking.

[Splatshot]

I have an honest question, can you offer up two types of servers, one that has no quirks or ghost heat enabled and one that does.

That way the user can decide which they version of the game they wish to play.

[KursedVixen]

Sevronis, on 17 May 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

Dangit. I really didn't want to believe it when I was hearing Timberwolf was getting a nerf. Maybe if try-hards weren't always doing those damn meta builds it wouldn't be needed. At first I saw the laser duration increase quirk and I was like "lol" and then saw energy heat gen got increased too and I was like "dammit." I don't even use laser vomit builds but now my hot dual ppcs just got hotter >< (my traditional build in all MW games for a timber was 2 ERPPC, 2 Med Pulse, and 2 Streak-6). Now it seems they just made one of the most iconic clan mechs in lore, let alone my favorite mech since MW2, into a joke. I know why it was done. I understand why, and frankly I'm all for trying to fight against the meta laser builds, but they even screwed over even my non-meta build.

I really hope it's not as bad as I'm thinking.

21%Laser duration and Cooldown on the S if you use all the S pods

[Lagster]

Clans are so OP that I do better and earn more cbills on my Heavy Metal than on my TBR-Prime (I).

I don't know why it is so hard for PGI to realise that clanners laservomit because we have no choice. I'm bored of my clan mechs.

SRMs don't work at all because my ping averages 270 to 300 and hitreg is still borked.

LRMs are useless in any form of organised play where ECM coverage is guaranteed.

Clan ACs are just bad, even PGI acknowledged that.

PPCs are inferior to LPL, especially given the hitreg problems and low velocity.

What does that leave me? Oh wow, lasers and gauss. My clan collection looks like this:

Kitfox: LPL, 2ERML
Stormcrow: Gauss, 4ERML
Hellbringer: Gauss, 4ERML
Timberwolf: Gauss, 6ERML (probably going double Gauss after the 19/5 nerf)
Direwolf: 2 Gauss, 2LPL, 3ERML

It's not because I want to, it's because I have no other options. Every clan mech I buy, ends up being an exercise on how many Gauss and lasers I can fit onto it. At which point, they all play the same and I get bored and go back to my IS mechs, where at least the ACs are fine and provide different playstyles for each calibre, PPCs work on some mechs, and lasers have been quirked to be even better than clans.

And before haters tell me I can play the other weapon systems even though they are not as good, I'm sorry, but losing in any build is less fun than winning in a boring build.

Edited by Lagster, 17 May 2015 - 09:09 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

I know there is a lot of butthurt here but I have one thing to say first

ABOUT DAMN TIME PGI NERFED SOME TIER 1 CLAN MECHS

I supposed I predicted PGI would eventually have to do this
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4373179
Yes, yes, I did my small part to help ruin your precious untouchable 'mechs.

I think the magnitude and comprehensive scope of these changes are debatable, but the direction is indeed correct.

PGI seems to be a lot less good at guessing which 'mech people will turn to next. Sure, the Summoner and Gargoyle are unchanged but they have their own problems too.The obvious route will be higher usage of Hellbringers rather than SMNs or GARs.

Then there is that Dire Wolf. It seems odd it was able to dodge an atomic nerfbat on the first pass. So not only are the changes likely to be off a bit but just hitting the TBR/SCR left one or two obvious candidates untouched.



Maybe the whales should give it a chance before they stop pokemoning and make threats to seek refunds.

[Aurawind]

I miss the good old days of MWO when it started off in the Beta, when you could just run up and brawl with a mix of ballistics, SRMs and lasers, was so much fun. I use to be able to take alot of punishment, now it feels like if you try to brawl you end up dying so quick. No wonder players keep hiding behind cover, they don't want to get snipped by ranged weapons while trying to move up.

First off, there's too much quirking going around. What happened to fixing the weapons themselves? I really want to see all weapons be used as evenly as possible between all mechs, and to do that they need to fix the weapons players don't use.

The quirks are there to help under-performing mechs and to promote certain trademarked weapons for particular mechs, not boost already strong ones. There needs to be a system in place to promote mixed weaponry, so far quirks do the opposite, they promote "Boating" one type of weapon. Some mechs like the Awesome for example do need some PPC quirks since it was designed to be able to use 3 PPCs, so that makes sense. But there should be limits to the number of weapons benefit from thoses quirks, for example: PPC Heat reduction for 3 PPCs or less, if you have more than 3 PPCs you do not gain any heat reduction for any of them. Making the quirks limited to a specific number or less of the type of weapons will help discourage "Boating" one type of weapon. So for example you could see a quirk like: Medium Laser Heat reduction +15% (max 4) on a Firestarter, which if they want the benefit of the quirk they would use no more than 4 Medium Lasers and use other weaponry like Medium Pulse Lasers, Flamers, Large Lasers, etc.. for the rest.

Clan Ballistics and Missiles need serious buffs, that's why most Clan players use Energy weapons. In general I feel like all IS weapons are better than Clan weapons at the moment. Clan weapons have more range and damage but the heat and beam duration are so bad. Range is such a minimal stat that it isn't worth that heat and duration and damage isn't enough because you'll never be able to get full damage on your shots because the duration is too long. I'd trade all my Clan weapons for IS weapons for my Clan mechs if I could. When I pilot Clan mechs I always feel like I'm cooking inside the cockpit, with the furnace, oven and toaster at max, no matter what weapon combination I use...

Beam duration is probably the most hated stat for me for Clan Energy weapons, heat a close second. So I stopped using Clan ER LLs on my Timberwolf and Stormcrow (which only had 2 each) because I could not deal with the beam duration and now you make the duration even longer... It will be impossible to do the weapon's max damage because the enemy will not stay still and take it. With a longer duration you'll also have to face the enemy longer so more time for the enemy to aim for specific parts of your mech, and if you try to torso twist your beams will spray on your teammates like sneezing while peeing. Out of the 11 dmg Clan ER LLs do, you'll only be able to do 4 or 5 and the rest you'll spray on your teammates because you can't stop the beam. Sounds a lot like the problem with Clan ACs, can't do the max damage of the AC because only 1 or 2 of the shots fired hit.

[Helaton]

I am not against the nerfs, but don't agree with the handling of it.

I am not a fan of quirks at all.

As long as there are quirks, there will be negative fallout and wasted effort to balance the mechs. Someone's time gets spent on this, implementing this, gathering data, and following through with the aftermath. Its better spent on other things. We do not need a 'quirks' albatross hanging on our neck all the time when we make a change on any side that can be polarizing.

When mechs are released, there should be just a few things to worry about:

• Hardpoints (and location)
  
• Amazing 3d/art.
  
• Fluid mechanics. (argh, bunny hopping jump jets argh)

That we have to use quirks to make adjustments on various mechs means what we have is not working, and no matter what manner of patching is done is just a patch. Each time will spark the ire of the community and I'd much rather have PGI developing new maps, new game modes, new mechs in the long run than stuck on old problems. But right now we're trapped in an endless cycle, and to get out of that, its a need to focus on core issues. On trees, you have to prune the branches that would cause the tree to die in the long run.

We have a majority of problems with quirks as weapon quirks. That means that the majority of problems are in weapons. (I don't see anyone complaining about acceleration/speed/arm/torso etc quirks.)

• We have laser meta. That means that the majority of problems is in heat if the meta involves 8-9+ lasers.
  
• Clan ballistics have problems with the spray and pray. (Like an LBX problem but fires in a line problem)
  
• LB #X has problems with effectiveness of spread. (Take the rated range of an LBX weapon and divide it by half for effective range. i.e. LB20X is rated for 360m but is only effective at 180 and less.)
  
• LRMs are just impossible to get locks with the functions of everpresent multiple layers of ECM (Artemis + visual should really override this and allow a lock.)
  
• SRMs are hitreg restricted, but are good weapons enmasse (which is the current problem anyways).
  
• Streaks are probably pretty good on the clan side. (the horrendous cooldown time is a good balancer. Annoying to heavies but a great light shredder enmasse.)

What I'll propose is something different for Clan Mechs structurally. (If I have to add it to features, I'll do that to be proper.)

• Get rid of omnipods entirely. Being able to maximize 13 combined energy hardpoints just means you're encouraging problems, future quirks, future balancing.
  
• Every hardpoint should be of a size. Small/Large/Massive (or any variation there-in) and only fit appropriately sized weapons.
  
• Change clan hardpoints to omni hardpoints that can accept any weapon that is appropriately sized. (Small, large, massive omni hardpoints.) in exchange. Might you see a 12 MG Nova? It's possible.

Mechwarrior 4 was not bad (gasp shoot me), in the way that omni hardpoints worked with controlling weapon loadouts.

Any hardpoint on an omnimech should be able to accept missiles, ballistics, lasers. Players are not allowed to change out the hardpoints. Does this make Clan mechs similar to IS mechs? Yes, and that's not a bad thing and evens the playing field more. We do not need to max out the number of hardpoints via combining Arm omnipod A with chassis B to get Mutant Mech 2015k with 13 combined hardpoints.

Let mechs do the talking through their hardpoints and hardpoint placement, not quirks. Maybe the Summoner and other nostalgic mechs wouldn't be as bad as it is now.

We can't use Quirks as chemotherapy to try to fix problems. We're causing a lot of secondary side effects that may be just as bad as the original problem.

This is a Mechwarrior game. I desperately want it to succeed. But core problems can't be addressed with band-****.

Edited by Helaton, 17 May 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[Mystere]

I believe it is now time for PGI to scrap the quirk system and instead implement the following:

• Ghost Duration
  
• Ghost Cooldown
  
• Ghost Range
  
• Ghost Damage
  
• Ghost Weight
  
• Ghost Armor
  
• Ghost Ammo

and finally:

• Ghost Splash Damage

MWO will be for the better.