757 replies to this topic

[VorpalAnvil]

oldradagast, on 18 May 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

A huge number of mechs in Lore were designed by morons

But clearly PGI knows precisely what they are doing? lol...

[Jess Hazen]

I can't help but feel like the designers of MWO just don't care anymore. Paul might as well be a zombie.

[Seth Kalasa]

Clan omnimechs MUST be better and more efficient than IS battlemechs. When you'll understand and accept this, PGI?!

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Malcolm Decker, on 18 May 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Look the cold hard truth that no one wants to hear is that a more "diverse" build that features a mix of weapons is never going to be optimal in this type of game. This is not English Literature class. Subjective interpretation carries no weight. It is simple math. There will always be a "best" build objectively speaking in terms of damage output, range, etc. and anything else is sub-optimal. Furthermore, because it's a shooter game, the build that can put the most damage in a single component in the shortest amount of time is going to be the go-to build for skilled players that like winning.

It is the nature of a multiplayer game. The smartest, most competitive players are going to break down the numbers and find the most efficient and powerful builds for the role they want to play. Most of the time you end up with some kind of min-maxed setup just like you see with current TBR, SCR, or Stalker 4N laser vomit. These players will then proceed to faceroll all of the more casual or inexperienced players running other, lesser builds.

The laser nerf will just herald the return of gauss spam since that's generally the only other viable weapon for the clans right now. How long before those are nerfed too after complaints regarding the inevitable gauss/ppc/AC boating? History has just been repeating itself since closed beta. What's worse from a business perspective is that I have held off on making further MC and package purchases due to the massive level of uncertainty regarding the future of any chassis or weapon.

What we really want to see is a true fix to hit detection and HSR issues and a new approach to balance that seeks to make each and every type of weapon viable. Trying to nerf down the best mech/weapon combo every time it appears is not balance, it is just a temporary solution that only lasts as long as it takes for players to crunch a few numbers to find the next "OP" mech/weapon combo. The entire system needs a reboot.

Some people need to understand that nobody sane thinks that there can be no meta.

The issue is the gap between the meta mechs and builds and the average mechs and builds; plus the gap between the average mechs and builds and worst possible mechs.

When equally skilled teams will do a CW match against each other, where one team has top meta mechs only, while players from the other team build their drop decks according to their own preferences (still aimed at teamwork and picked strategy, mind you), what will the result of that match be?

Yes, the meta team will win. If the skill level is absolutely equal, they will always win. But by what margin?

If the meta team stomps the custom team 48-<one digit number>, the balance is downright terrible.
If the meta team wins by a small margin, like 48-45 the balance is nearly perfect.


I believe new meta mechs will not be as overperforming as the old ones were, because if they were so good, they would be the meta mechs already, not in 15 hours from now. This is a good thing.

The PGI does what should be done. They buff the weaklings and nerf the overperformers. Quirks aren't the best possible way to do it, true. They often do not address the very reason why a mech is overperforming. Still, latest ones do their job most of the time, as forced as they sometimes are.

EDIT: grammar, spelling

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 19 May 2015 - 12:34 AM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

yay time to fire up the gauss+2 ppc timbertart

[Ace Selin]

Seth Kalasa, on 18 May 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

Clan omnimechs MUST be better and more efficient than IS battlemechs. When you'll understand and accept this, PGI?!

No they must NOT. they must be equal but different, for a PVP game, which this is

Edited by Ace Selin, 19 May 2015 - 01:34 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Ace Selin, on 19 May 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

No they must NOT. they must be equal but different, for a PVP game, which this is

then they are no longer clan mechs.

[Vellron2005]

I just noticed something...

I'v been playing TBR-Prime and TBR-S without any modules so far.. Just scored 800+ damage and 3 kills yesterday with the Prime, 2xLRM20+4MPL build, and finished your puny phoenix challenge in 2,5 hours of play time..

They nerfed the lasers by a total of 12% cooldown... SO... If I equip the Laser cooldown module.. No nerf, no change of gameplay efficiency...

Your move PGI... go ahead... nerf me... bioootch. :-)

Seriously though.. the Timberwolf will still be a GREAT mech to play.. It was never meant to be a deticated laser boat, it was meant to have a weapon for all ranges (long, medium and short), and be fast and agile.. and it still is.

There are many builds you can use on it with other weapons, and even with lasers that won't overheat (especially with the modules), and what better challenge than a nerf to teach us heat menagement?

Examples:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified

And there are many many more..

I say all you people who took this nerf personally, chill...

Adapt, Evolve, Thrive.

P.S.

Personally, I believe that they should REMOVE the quirk system from the game entirely... The weapons themselves and the modules, hardpoints, ominopods and the ghost heat are ENOUGH to give each mech diversity..

No need for quirks AT ALL..

Edited by Vellron2005, 19 May 2015 - 02:59 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

KursedVixen, on 18 May 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

The entire Pgi team needs to realize that their balacing the wrong way. They need to stop listening to unskilled whiney pilots and listen to the skilled pilots.

Some mechs are just hard to kill thats how it is.

I might make a different argument. PGI needs to stop looking at raw and unsorted data, or stop looking at what the "pro" players and 12-man drops are doing when deciding how to balance. Playing CW during Tukayyid I hardly saw anything like the builds that are being used as reasons to the nerf outside of the 12-man enemy drops or dedicated unit groups I dropped with. Randoms simply aren't using these mechs that way. And ultimately, a group of random has no chance against a 12-man. .. period. It doesn't matter that they bring "meta" mechs. That's not why they were winning so much.

[EAP10]

Lagster, on 17 May 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

What does that leave me? Oh wow, lasers and gauss. My clan collection looks like this:

Kitfox: LPL, 2ERML
Stormcrow: Gauss, 4ERML
Hellbringer: Gauss, 4ERML
Timberwolf: Gauss, 6ERML (probably going double Gauss after the 19/5 nerf)
Direwolf: 2 Gauss, 2LPL, 3ERML

You think your clan mechs are gaussy & lazery?
-Kit fox
1: Gauss
2: 2 erlg 1 medpulse

-Nova:
1: Gauss, 2med
2: 2 erlrg, 8small

-Summoner:
1: Gauss, 2 med, lrm15
2: Gauss, 4med
3: Gauss, ppc

-Direwolf:
1: 2gauss, 6med, 2streak6
2: 4lrgplse, 2lbx5, 2smlplse
3: 2gauss, 1lbx20, 3med
4: 2gauss, 1lrgplse, 2medplse, 2med

-WarHawk:
1: 2gauss, 2med
2: 1gauss 3lrgplse


Notice it's all gauss and lasers? (And the very few ballistics and missiles) That's because that is all that I have tried to use on these mechs, and these builds are the only ones I found effective. These are also the builds I use most often on these mechs as well.

Stay gaussy, my friends.

(I only use gauss on direwolves because I can't use clan ACs due to them sucking)

Edited by EAP10, 19 May 2015 - 05:25 AM.

[Tyras]

A whole lot of nerf in this patch. I get the idea of PGI trying to steer the meta away from laser vomit, but I question their methods. Given that they have huge amounts of data from the Prove your Allegiance and Battle of Tukayyid events that show rough parity between the Clans and the IS, with the Clans edging out the IS in power by 3-5% it doesn't make sense to me to swing the nerf bat at the IS, and to swing it as hard at the Clans. It comes off as a knee jerk reaction to loud and annoying forum whining, more than based on actual data.

[Livewyr]

Why does nobody want to use Clan ACs and UACs?

They're like lasers! They just don't have hitscan..., and are bigger...and weigh more... with limited ammunition...


Nevermind.

[Tyras]

KursedVixen, on 19 May 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

then they are no longer clan mechs.

Having Clan 'mechs as they were in the lore wouldn't work in this game. The IS managed the few victories they achieved through exploiting the Clan's culture and using tactics and equipment not available in MWO. If PGI removed artillery and air strikes from the Clans, reduced the number of Clan mechs available in a given battle, gave the IS the ability to assign areas of the map as being mine fields prior to a battle starting, allowing the IS to booby trap bulidings, giving the IS superior artillery and long range missiles support... then maybe MWO could be more like the lore.

Nobody wants to play a punching bag to an alpha class in a game. There must be parity between factions for a PvP game, there's no way around that.

[the wr3ck]

My 2x raven is going in the graveyard and so is your future funding. Lights are at 6 percent after this anouncment. Terrible nerfs all around. I've learned my lesson of how pgi steals your money and acts as an Indian giver with mechs and quirks

[conquistadorst]

Alienized, on 18 May 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

you are enjoying it? no, you just abuse it and causing its nerf with it. i dont need to play mechs that will obviously get a nerf bat soon because of people like you.
yep they got enough data evidence to nerf flat out all IS large laser boats and it will happen.
again, thanks to you. you destroy a good weapon by massively boating it.

First you say there's no data to support a nerf, then you say it needs a nerf, then you say it only needs a nerf because people abuse it, and now you call people using the quirks PGI has assigned to the mech the bad guys. Really? Yes, it's all those darned abuser players faults for playing the game by the rules! You could hurt people using that logic, I hope your day job doesn't have you doing anything too important. This argument is done, can't rationalize with the irrational.

Edited by conquistadorst, 19 May 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[Herr Vorragend]

maybe a 10 vs 12 from wave 1 on wasn´t the worst idea

[Livewyr]

SO I went and tested a UAC 10 LPL, 3 ML Build...
because I hadn't used clan UACs in nearly a year. Yup- they are still 100% piles of garbage.

GJ PGI, You've killed the TBR/SCR for Community Warfare.

[Drake67]

PGI all you have done is force META players to find a new META. Next week we will have people whining about how this or that is OP and the cycle will start over again. People will always gravitate to what works the best and you can't make people play the game the way you think it should be played. Put in a JJ system that makes sense. Remove ghost heat and quirks.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Drake67, on 19 May 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

PGI all you have done is force META players to find a new META. Next week we will have people whining about how this or that is OP and the cycle will start over again. People will always gravitate to what works the best and you can't make people play the game the way you think it should be played. Put in a JJ system that makes sense. Remove ghost heat and quirks.

Maybe this is a test to see if people whine just to whine.

Although I am solidly contemplating dropping my W3 package down to cheetah since I don't see myself playing for many months until they stop putting effort into stuff like mech lab(all they needed was a "usable weapon for selected part" filter and a way to track down modules) and take care of the meat of gameplay like CW out of beta and in to a full on tactical war that feels like you're fighting for something.

[Pepito Sbazzeguti]

Vellron2005, on 19 May 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

I just noticed something...

I'v been playing TBR-Prime and TBR-S without any modules so far.. Just scored 800+ damage and 3 kills yesterday with the Prime, 2xLRM20+4MPL build, and finished your puny phoenix challenge in 2,5 hours of play time..

They nerfed the lasers by a total of 12% cooldown... SO... If I equip the Laser cooldown module.. No nerf, no change of gameplay efficiency...

Your move PGI... go ahead... nerf me... bioootch. :-)

Seriously though.. the Timberwolf will still be a GREAT mech to play.. It was never meant to be a deticated laser boat, it was meant to have a weapon for all ranges (long, medium and short), and be fast and agile.. and it still is.

There are many builds you can use on it with other weapons, and even with lasers that won't overheat (especially with the modules), and what better challenge than a nerf to teach us heat menagement?

Examples:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...echlab#modified

And there are many many more..

I say all you people who took this nerf personally, chill...

Adapt, Evolve, Thrive.

P.S.

Personally, I believe that they should REMOVE the quirk system from the game entirely... The weapons themselves and the modules, hardpoints, ominopods and the ghost heat are ENOUGH to give each mech diversity..

No need for quirks AT ALL..

Your links are don't work.

You don't get the point. People aren't pissed off for additional cooldown, but for beam increase. That's an issue you can't fix with any modules.

An increase of 12%, 15% and more in beam that is already eternal for the only viable (at the moment) CW clan weapons is insane.

This nerfs not only affects meta builds but also non meta as well, so here the reason a quarter or more of current MWO population owning TBR or SRC, buyed with real money or by grinding C-bills, is so angry.