757 replies to this topic

[ShadowFire]

Dear PGI,

If you wish to encourage more clan gunnery you ought to somehow NOT count the -3% quirks on gun capable torsos or arms that do not have their energy slot(s) occupied. It's complete BS to further nerf your chassis's heat/burn time numbers without the source (an energy weapon) even installed!!!

And if you can not make that happen you ought to make more gun capable torso/arms available without the offending energy weapon slots.

BTW, the "nerf lasers only quirk" vice "nerf all energy quirk" another player mentioned would definitely move players toward PPCs as well.

[Der Hesse]

KursedVixen, on 23 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Because these quinerfs as i call them are effecting low lever players not the meta high level players.




Try playing clan mechs before you stick your nose into things you don't know about.

Don't put down words where you pilot hasn't put their feet down.


Ya know what have fun with your 5th succession wars I hope the Inner Sphere makes Battlemechs losttech by the end..

Wrong assumption! I bought those mechs and mastered them just to see where their weaknesses are. At least for the Crow i didn´t find any.

So YOU shouldn´t talk about things you don´t know anything about, like my knowledge about Clanmechs.

[Clownwarlord]

My drop deck this weekend event was Timber Wolf, Summoner, Mad Dog, and Kit Fox (still have 5 tons so if you prefer 35 ton light for calns go ahead).

The Timber Wolf was fin I had it still as a laser vomit with ER Mediums and Large Pulse Lasers ... never had an issue with it. The Summoner was also fun, and I hadn't played that mech since I mastered it so I am very surprised as to how well it did during the event so far and during the solo play where I shook off the rust. As a side note I use the Summoner as a ERPPC sniper not as a streak or srm boat. Then the Mad Dog I had the streak boat built on it which helped against light rushed of the IS and open mechs. Lastly the Kit Fox is a 3 AMS ECM 3 Medium Pulses basically your walking anti missile mech.

These nerfings didn't seem to slow me down or my team I was with at all so no complaints while I am with clan

[IraqiWalker]

Peiper, on 23 May 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2aebb14ef6a4afd

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b051b47bbc8e167

There ya go. Avoiding as much of the nerf as possible. Still nerfed. Are those meta-builds? Alpha builds? I don't think so. I would say those are about as balanced as you can get. Stormcrow doesn't run as hot at the T-Wolf, but then it only has 2 streak packs. T-Wolf has 4, which gives ghost heat when alpha striking. But Alpha builds don't rely on missiles, as they are not direct fire. With the beam duration increases, holding on one location of a moving target is even harder. Much easier on IS mechs. Given the ranges at which most combat happens, the IS range difference isn't such a handicap as it might sound. Okay, Clan mechs do more damage with their lasers, but not that much more, and IS mechs can torso twist or move away easier - or just brawl as the Clan weapons recycle slower and are much hotter.

Look, I'm not saying clan tech should be superpowered, I just want it to do what it's supposed to do, and this nerf is unreasonable. This is the only case where equipping the same weapon on one mech is purposely worse than putting it on another mech. I'm not using my 2xLPL + 4xERMLaser build anymore, or my laserboat stormcrow anymore. I don't mind that, really, as they were just as deadly as the laser stalker and T-bolt still are, and I do believe that those builds are canonically ridiculous and shouldn't even be allowed. PGI should instead, as I said, penalize for boating more than a mech is designed to boat. But these nerfs hurt even balanced mechs, and that's the crime here.

It's a 12% penalty, which is reasonable considering the mechs, and firepower, you're bringing. Yes it's not fair that you are punished because someone else is running 7+ energy hardpoints, much like it wasn't fair when the non-poptarters like my self got punished because of the poptarters.

Also, this maybe just a mistake you made in Smurfy, but your SCR build has a free ton (CAP, maybe?)

Hopefuly this'll eventually help tone down the TBR, and SCR, and finally some much deserved buffs will be given to the other clan mechs that really need them (literally any clan mech that isn't the SCR, TBR, or HBR).

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2015 - 04:42 PM.

[Peiper]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

It's a 12% penalty, which is reasonable considering the mechs, and firepower, you're bringing. Yes it's not fair that you are punished because someone else is running 7+ energy hardpoints, much like it wasn't fair when the non-poptarters like my self got punished because of the poptarters. [and so on]

I don't agree with you, IraqiWalker, but I will acknowledge your enthusiastic responses and the time you put in writing them.

[IraqiWalker]

Peiper, on 24 May 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

I don't agree with you, IraqiWalker, but I will acknowledge your enthusiastic responses and the time you put in writing them.

Thank you. I'll hopefully see you around more often.

[KursedVixen]

There will always be meta the only way to make no meta is to make no game.

[IraqiWalker]

KursedVixen, on 24 May 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

There will always be meta the only way to make no meta is to make no game.

That's fine. The problem is not the meta existing. The problem is twofold:

1- It's persistence

2- It's gap.

There's no problem with a meta being there, as long as the gap between it, and sensible builds isn't so massive that sensible designs have no chance of winning 1v1. If the meta mechs had a 3% win advantage over decent non-meta mechs, complaints against the meta would be either less frequent, or unnecessary.

That was for point 2.

The other problem that I listed was "persistence", if the meta stays the same for too long, it really starts to kill the game.

[KursedVixen]

Am i the only one sensing a bit of emotion from bombadiil in the new weekend update video? Like a bit of distraught at the timber and crow nerfs?

IraqiWalker, on 24 May 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

That's fine. The problem is not the meta existing. The problem is twofold:

1- It's persistence

2- It's gap.

There's no problem with a meta being there, as long as the gap between it, and sensible builds isn't so massive that sensible designs have no chance of winning 1v1. If the meta mechs had a 3% win advantage over decent non-meta mechs, complaints against the meta would be either less frequent, or unnecessary.

That was for point 2.

The other problem that I listed was "persistence", if the meta stays the same for too long, it really starts to kill the game.

Then find a weakness in the meta every mech has a weakness exploit it

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 May 2015 - 03:46 AM.

[PhoenixNMGLB]

ScarecrowES, on 23 May 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Like many of us have said, the quirk changes dont really hurt the meta builds because of how they are played. If you're just going to pop in and out of cover, what does it matter how long your recovery time is? What you should have noticed is that scr and tbr builds for brawling are not doing so well. Pretty much any build with lasers that gets face time is being owned by the equivalent IS mech. And in any normal situation those clan mechs were not above and beyond anything else. Ultimately the quirk change was the wrong call.

What I have noticed is a lot of tbr and scr meta builds hiding behind everyone else when before they would be leading the charge.

Kinda funny watching a timberwolf using a kitfox as cover.

[SaltBeef]

my experiences with mixed load out is that my performance in this game has dropped significantly in this mech. I was out damaging it with in everything else in my drop deck. Try the mixed build PGI has corralled us into is not doing me any favors. I was running a Ultra Ac10, Er LL, Large pulse , and 2 SRM 4, quite a mix up for absolutly ****** numbers.The timber has fallen far for me.

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 May 2015 - 07:34 PM.

[MrEdweird]

SaltBeef, on 25 May 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

my experiences with mixed load out is that my performance in this game has dropped significantly in this mech. I was out damaging it with in everything else in my drop deck. Try the mixed build PGI has corralled us into is not doing me any favors. I was running a Ultra Ac10, Er LL, Large pulse , and 2 SRM 4, quite a mix up for apsolutly ****** numbers.The timber has fallen far for me.

So are you saying that you're doing bottom damage now? Or that you're doing as much / as little damage as everyone else as it should be?

[ScarecrowES]

SaltBeef, on 25 May 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

my experiences with mixed load out is that my performance in this game has dropped significantly in this mech. I was out damaging it with in everything else in my drop deck. Try the mixed build PGI has corralled us into is not doing me any favors. I was running a Ultra Ac10, Er LL, Large pulse , and 2 SRM 4, quite a mix up for apsolutly ****** numbers.The timber has fallen far for me.

This was my experience too during the CW event. I usually avoid CW like the plague, but this was an event tailor-made for my mech deck, so I opted in. I have 3ea TBRs and SCRs. My Primes in those retain similarities to their intended builds... ie the TBR-Prime is a mix of LRMs with long and short lasers for backup, and the SCR-Prime is a mixed laser package. I was doing so much worse with these nerfs on builds I've been very happy with while watching laser-vomit builds still stomping over everything that it actually pushed me closer to the meta.

I dropped all larger lasers on SCR and went to all short-range pulses and adopted the usual pop-and-vomit strategy and my results went way up. The SCR was my highest output mech all event because of it. I went a bit towards meta with the TBR-Prime to add more utility in the cover-pop world of CW, and afterward it worked better.

So yeah, contrary to intent, PGI's changes actually pushed me AWAY from my more diverse builds TOWARD the meta. Because, let's face it... as I've been saying, longer cooling time really doesn't hurt you if you're just going to do the laser equivelant of poptarting.

Edweird, on 25 May 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

So are you saying that you're doing bottom damage now? Or that you're doing as much / as little damage as everyone else as it should be?

On mixed loadouts, you do worst than average. Laser-vomit builds are set on par with their IS equivelants, but mixed builds with lasers supporting other weapons have been summarily destroyed. More or less mixed builds require decent laser output to offset less than ideal output of the clans' crappy versions of other weapons. Without decent laser bolstering, you're left to depend largely on the output of your non-laser weapons, which are not even close to par with the IS version.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 25 May 2015 - 09:39 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

KursedVixen, on 24 May 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

Am i the only one sensing a bit of emotion from bombadiil in the new weekend update video? Like a bit of distraught at the timber and crow nerfs?


Then find a weakness in the meta every mech has a weakness exploit it

It wouldn't be the meta if it had an easily exploitable weakness.

Let me give you an example that I hope we can all related to. Gauss + ERPPC poptarts. Remember them? Technically that meta had weaknesses. Strikes, the pilot is in one location for too long, so he can be encircled, and surrounded... etc.

Those are technically weaknesses. The problem is that it meant we had to deploy the resources of multiple mechs to stop ONE. So for every poptart, we needed 2 to 3 mechs. That means to kill a team of 12, we needed 24-36 mechs.

Do you see the problem there. It's a similar one here. Technically, if you can close into short range, and make them over heat, you can beat them. The problem is that you're NEVER getting into short range. You're burned to a crisp at long range, and that's a big part of why PGI penalized cycle times on energy weapons, hopefully giving the people trying to close in, a slight chance of doing that.

ScarecrowES, on 25 May 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

On mixed loadouts, you do worst than average. Laser-vomit builds are set on par with their IS equivelants, but mixed builds with lasers supporting other weapons have been summarily destroyed. More or less mixed builds require decent laser output to offset less than ideal output of the clans' crappy versions of other weapons. Without decent laser bolstering, you're left to depend largely on the output of your non-laser weapons, which are not even close to par with the IS version.

Literally the only weapon group where IS has an advantage is ballistics. Our MPLs are pretty sweet, but they are not better or worse than clan MPLs, considering the trade offs in range, damage, or heat. I'd honestly say they are almost fully balanced. Unless you count the single TDR variant.

[SaltBeef]

Yes doing lower damage with the Timberwolf! Better damage even with the Mist Lynx. My Ping was absolute crap Last Night never seen it so low before and I am sure HSR was bugging the hit rate out of that Ultra auto cannon probably 5% of the hits registered I'd be willing to bet. My Normal Ping is around 130 to 140 last Night it was in the 200s. It sure as hell was not because CW was flooded with players , I saw 1 planet as low as 35 players on each side at one point.

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 May 2015 - 07:50 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Literally the only weapon group where IS has an advantage is ballistics. Our MPLs are pretty sweet, but they are not better or worse than clan MPLs, considering the trade offs in range, damage, or heat. I'd honestly say they are almost fully balanced. Unless you count the single TDR variant.

I dunno. I have a lot of mechs and many builds that are similar across a clan and IS chassis of the same ilk. IS ballistics are, no question, better, though I've gotten a little more appreciation for clan UACs in certain situations lately. Lasers get a little more complicated. Clans clearly have the range and damage/ton advantage, and statistically there's no question they're better. But within the effective ranges of IS lasers, I think I think IS lasers are very much better purely because of the extended duration on clan lasers. Even before TBR and SCR nerfs, putting all that laser time onto a mech wasn't easy if you were playing straight up. I think utility and ease of use are oft-forgotten factors in mech building.

Yeah, IS lasers don't have the range, and lose out on pure damage, but I can put more of that damage where I want it, when I want it. I'd take an IS ML over a Clan ER-ML any day. In fact, I've swapped most standard clan lasers for pulses for this very reason. I lose out on the damage/ton ratio, and sacrifice range, but I gain my utility back. That utility can make up for a lot of that missed damage potential.

[IraqiWalker]

ScarecrowES, on 26 May 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

I dunno. I have a lot of mechs and many builds that are similar across a clan and IS chassis of the same ilk. IS ballistics are, no question, better, though I've gotten a little more appreciation for clan UACs in certain situations lately. Lasers get a little more complicated. Clans clearly have the range and damage/ton advantage, and statistically there's no question they're better. But within the effective ranges of IS lasers, I think I think IS lasers are very much better purely because of the extended duration on clan lasers. Even before TBR and SCR nerfs, putting all that laser time onto a mech wasn't easy if you were playing straight up. I think utility and ease of use are oft-forgotten factors in mech building.

Yeah, IS lasers don't have the range, and lose out on pure damage, but I can put more of that damage where I want it, when I want it. I'd take an IS ML over a Clan ER-ML any day. In fact, I've swapped most standard clan lasers for pulses for this very reason. I lose out on the damage/ton ratio, and sacrifice range, but I gain my utility back. That utility can make up for a lot of that missed damage potential.

Yep, Clan lasers at long range out-perform IS lasers, but at short range they lose to them. In a way, that's a balance factor.

[Peiper]

IraqiWalker, on 26 May 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Yep, Clan lasers at long range out-perform IS lasers, but at short range they lose to them. In a way, that's a balance factor.

It's a balance factor only if the maps are balanced in ranges as well. Most CW and public maps are geared toward short range brawls. Even the medium range maps, the IS lasers rock because they can put the damage where they want it and duck back out. So, if you have 5 IS medium lasers, they'll still be better than 5 TW/SC ER medium lasers because, even at half damage at a distance, they'll still have a better alpha - unless the IS mech is standing still. My Devil Dogs switch every week from Wolf to Steiner and back, so we get a lot of practice in all the mechs, and we KNOW that if it's an even match skill vs. skill, we can beat the Clans every time. The only reason the clans are doing as well as they are in CW is because of skill, communication, and teamwork. They are overcoming their handicaps with their mechs. As soon as the IS figures this out, the clans won't make any progress.

The big merc groups are playing with the clans for this event, and many IS groups too, because of the reward structure. Wait until the Resistance weekend happens and see how the clans fare. My prediction: the clans will take the weekend off. Why?
Anyway, it's back to high alpha builds and burn times, right? That's what these nerfs are about, and still, laserboats are the way to go. What PGI needs to do is not nerf the lasers themselves, but to nerf alpha striking. So, if you take more or bigger lasers than the mech is meant to carry, they should get some big penalties, and maybe a stagger so you can't chainfire quickly to get around it. Right now, balanced builds are being hurt as well as alpha builds. PGI is once again trying to bandaid the problem instead of going to the core of the problem.

Solution: sized hardpoints and/or engine power limits, preventing high alpha strikes. The twitch gamers will get over it, because this is MECHWARRIOR, not call of duty. The rest of us will have more fun slugging it out the way mechs are supposed to!

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Hi.

I'm just stopping by here to reiterate my stance that these nerfs were the wrong kind of debuff to apply to the Crow and Wolf, whose power does not by any means hinge on their ability to mount large numbers of lasers. If you want more detail, find my threads on that in GenDis and Feature Suggestions.

That's all.

Back to the rest of the forums!

-QKD-CR0

[IraqiWalker]

Peiper, on 26 May 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Anyway, it's back to high alpha builds and burn times, right? That's what these nerfs are about, and still, laserboats are the way to go. What PGI needs to do is not nerf the lasers themselves, but to nerf alpha striking. So, if you take more or bigger lasers than the mech is meant to carry, they should get some big penalties, and maybe a stagger so you can't chainfire quickly to get around it. Right now, balanced builds are being hurt as well as alpha builds. PGI is once again trying to bandaid the problem instead of going to the core of the problem.

Like Ghost heat? XP

Peiper, on 26 May 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Solution: sized hardpoints and/or engine power limits, preventing high alpha strikes. The twitch gamers will get over it, because this is MECHWARRIOR, not call of duty. The rest of us will have more fun slugging it out the way mechs are supposed to!

Okay. Time for a serious reply:

Sized hardpoints should be off the table. I've always hated that system, and never saw the sense in it. We already have a slot cost, now we need to have a double slot cost?

No, the best 2 solutions I can think of are:

1- Adding the Engine power gauge. That's a brilliant one, and I like it. I'm glad you agree with it.

2- Capping heat at 30.