98 replies to this topic

[Fate 6]

Hit the Deck, on 22 May 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

You can because you add one cERML. According to my calculation, for one second of face time using the sample build you do:

• Damage from 1x cERLL + 5x cERML (1s) = 37.8 points of damage
  
• Damage from 1x cERLL + 6x cERML (1s) = 37.2 points of damage

The 0.6 point of damage difference is insignificant. The problem arises when you remove the cERML from the equation or if you can't add more cERML.



Using the old setup (1x cERLL + 5x cERML) the highest damage you can do is right when the cERMLs stop firing, or in other words, at 1,15s. At this time, you do:

• Damage from 1x cERLL + 5x cERML (1.15s) = 43.4 points of damage

When using the new setup (1x cERLL + 6x cERML), at 1.15s you do:

• Damage from 1x cERLL + 6x cERML (1.15s) = 42.7 points of damage

The new setup does 0.7 points of damage less. I think that's negligible.



PS: I arrived at these values by assuming that you get 18% Duration nerf.

You should only get a 15% duration nerf so it'll actually be pretty even. Thanks for the math. Even looking at the numbers it's hard to believe adding an ERML and removing a DHS gives you the exact same damage profile. I guess I'll have to take the 53 damage alpha SCR out for a spin. RIP anything that can't spread damage well.

[Burktross]

Fate 6, on 22 May 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

Only problem is that the ERLL is basically useless pretty inefficient. It's effectively just an EERML. The Gauss+ERML build is basically the same but that ERLL on that build is going to be very inefficient. 2LPL 2ERML for pure energy (CW) or Gauss+ERML (or MPL) for Skirmish/Conquest seems like the way to go.


Because DWF is slow and has terrible hitboxes. Any other mech will kill you.

Basically a Grid Iron does the same thing but 3 times faster.

For 15 more tons with OP quirks

[Wintersdark]

Burktross, on 22 May 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

clan ac/2 is very underrated.
I 1 v 1 Dire Wolves in my AC/2 kitfox :^)

either because you're very good or they're very bad.

All AC2's are terrible weapons requiring face time. Screen shake only impairs poor or inexperienced pilots.

Low DPS, high heat, constant face time required... Yuck.

Remember, success with so!ething doesn't make it good.

The day a AC2 Kitfox killed me 1v1 in a Direwolf is the day I'd stop piloting it. I've never had a guy in a firestarter or Jenner manage it, a comparatively slow Kitfox with weapons requiring face time to do appreciable? No chance.

[Burktross]

Wintersdark, on 22 May 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

either because you're very good or they're very bad.

All AC2's are terrible weapons requiring face time. Screen shake only impairs poor or inexperienced pilots.

Low DPS, high heat, constant face time required... Yuck.

Remember, success with so!ething doesn't make it good.

The day a AC2 Kitfox killed me 1v1 in a Direwolf is the day I'd stop piloting it. I've never had a guy in a firestarter or Jenner manage it, a comparatively slow Kitfox with weapons requiring face time to do appreciable? No chance.

It ain't good, but it surely is capable of being useful.

[Koniks]

Jman's right, this didn't kill the SCR by any means. It was OP with the old energy builds. And that meta was boring anyway.

If you want to keep the old build, now you have to adapt to taking more damage to deliver the same damage. Or you can change your build. Now you get a bigger alpha if you keep your beam on target for the full duration but you'll take a bit more damage. But you also get roughly the same effective damage over the same time as the old build. So if you want to keep the same level of performance with the new build just look away after 1.15s, the old duration. Cooldown modules, which you probably weren't using before, cut the quirk penalty by almost half, so that shouldn't really be an issue. And the extra ERML makes up most of the damage at range from ditching the range modules.

The old SCR build was heat limited, so having to wait a bit longer for your 3rd alpha also shouldn't be too onerous. Especially if you're playing the mech as a poker or part of a firing line. Which is what it was designed for.

So now the mech requires a bit more skill to handle. If you really have problems with that, it just made other mechs more viable for the same role. That's a good thing.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 May 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 18 May 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

So, make a unbearably hot loadout...15% hotter?


If you say so. Alpha was already ~50%. Now 60%.

Exactly...build was already too damn hot...

[Quxudica]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

So the response to PGI's attempts to reduce laser vomit is to add more laser vomit?

Excellent.

Unless they butchered the weapon type, this was inevitable. Clan AC's are still a non-starter and it really doesn't matter how many quirked band-**** they slap onto mechs it's never going to truly change until they finally admit the heat system needs to be redesigned.

[Sarlic]

This is so wrong on both sides.

PGI for giving a crap but balancing it flatout wrong.
Community for not giving a crap and carry on as usual.

Meta weapons and or builds will be always be a point.

Unless we see a good rework on convergence, heatscale, lasers and even clan ballistics, things will not change on the short term.

[CrushLibs]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b6fbded10b92e0

• +18% cooldown increase
  
• +18% beam Duration

Assuming you're elited and have level 5 cooldown modules:

• ER medium laser Cooldown goes from 2.49s -> 3.03

Translation -- Everyone who put the time to grind out the Basics and Elited on 3 mechs (107,350 XP) + spent GXP to unlock the skill and 3 million C-bills to get the level 5 cooldown module has now LOST ALL THAT WORK.


Standard ER medium cooldown = 3 secs now after all that work its 3.03 secs due to nerfs.

x5 ML Goes from 9.6 DPS/8.2 HPS -> 8 DPS/6.8 HPS

So drop 1 heatsink and add a 6th medium lasers and its business as usual

x6 ML with new values = 9.6 DPS / 8.2 HPS

So something like this instead:

and it's business as usual.

Yep "business as usual" accept your stained DPS is lower and you lose 25% of your time to overheat. 12 secs vs 16 secs..
-----------------------------------------------
4 IS LL on a 55 ton WVR-6K Duration .85 + Cooldown 2.76 = 3.61 into 36 damage = 9.97 DPS with 562m range

So facing target for full damage 1.357 vs .85 or 60% increase time on target, faster cycling rate and 56 secs to overheat with the 25% heat gen quirk.

Business as usual PGI putting the screws to clans

Edited by CrushLibs, 22 May 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

CrushLibs, on 22 May 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2b6fbded10b92e0

• +18% cooldown increase
  
• +18% beam Duration

Assuming you're elited and have level 5 cooldown modules:

• ER medium laser Cooldown goes from 2.49s -> 3.03

Translation -- Everyone who put the time to grind out the Basics and Elited on 3 mechs (107,350 XP) + spent GXP to unlock the skill and 3 million C-bills to get the level 5 cooldown module has now LOST ALL THAT WORK.




Standard ER medium cooldown = 3 secs now after all that work its 3.03 secs due to nerfs.

x5 ML Goes from 9.6 DPS/8.2 HPS -> 8 DPS/6.8 HPS

So drop 1 heatsink and add a 6th medium lasers and its business as usual

x6 ML with new values = 9.6 DPS / 8.2 HPS

So something like this instead:

and it's business as usual.

Yep "business as usual" accept your stained DPS is lower and you lose 25% of your time to overheat. 12 secs vs 16 secs..
-----------------------------------------------
4 IS LL on a 55 ton WVR-6K Duration .85 + Cooldown 2.76 = 3.61 into 36 damage = 9.97 DPS with 562m range

So facing target for full damage 1.357 vs .85 or 60% increase time on target, faster cycling rate and 56 secs to overheat with the 25% heat gen quirk.

Business as usual PGI putting the screws to clans

Does anyone else see a problem with this? You quote .85 sec as the duration, but I know for a fact you cannot alpha 4 LLs for 56 seconds, so if anything is 56 seconds its cycling the 2 back to back which equates to a duration of 1.7 sec. OMG COMPLETELY TERRIBLE MECH.

I'm telling you man, once you leave this stare-down version of MWO you will do better. It is a world where pure stare-down DPS is not nearly important as how well you can apply damage and then return to cover or spread damage. Some day you will see it is not all about face-tanking and out-DPSing.

Also, that Wolverine is slower, has an IS XL engine, and is completely neutered by losing its right arm. Way to focus on ONE aspect of the two mechs in comparison...

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 May 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[CrushLibs]

For one thing the 56 secs is from smurfy http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a6f843a307e119

Second thing current CW drops have 3 LL ravens 4 LL wolverines and 6 LL stalker with some Jeggers and Dragons mixed in.

Also for you info the mech that Jman5 suggested in testing ground on forest goes from 2% to 55% then to 87% and overheats before the ERLL can cycle a 3rd time.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 May 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Does anyone else see a problem with this? You quote .85 sec as the duration, but I know for a fact you cannot alpha 4 LLs for 56 seconds, so if anything is 56 seconds its cycling the 2 back to back which equates to a duration of 1.7 sec. OMG COMPLETELY TERRIBLE MECH. -- Seems to be popular in CW and you can alpha all 4 due to quirks

I'm telling you man, once you leave this stare-down version of MWO you will do better. It is a world where pure stare-down DPS is not nearly important as how well you can apply damage and then return to cover or spread damage. Some day you will see it is not all about face-tanking and out-DPSing. -- you do realize I run 4 MDD with SRMs that is a very squishy mech and has a max range of 297m so I know about not face-tanking.

Also, that Wolverine is slower, has an IS XL engine, and is completely neutered by losing its right arm. Way to focus on ONE aspect of the two mechs in comparison. I was only comparing the quirks on the lasers you atleast got that right

Edited by CrushLibs, 22 May 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

CrushLibs, on 22 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

For one thing the 56 secs is from smurfy http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a6f843a307e119

Second thing current CW drops have 3 LL ravens 4 LL wolverines and 6 LL stalker with some Jeggers and Dragons mixed in.

Also for you info the mech that Jman5 suggested in testing ground on forest goes from 2% to 55% then to 87% and overheats before the ERLL can cycle a 3rd time.

You can't alpha 4 LLs for 56 seconds though, I guarantee it.


I figured you knew about not face tanking but you are weighing everything so heavily on DPS its hard to believe. Seriously... DPS is not everything. It helps you do lots of damage if no one is looking at you but requires face-tanking to make it work.

[Wintersdark]

CrushLibs, on 22 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

For one thing the 56 secs is from smurfy http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2a6f843a307e119

Smurfy assumes you're not alphaing, but instead firing in groups to avoid ghost heat.

Quote

Second thing current CW drops have 3 LL ravens 4 LL wolverines and 6 LL stalker with some Jeggers and Dragons mixed in.

Also for you info the mech that Jman5 suggested in testing ground on forest goes from 2% to 55% then to 87% and overheats before the ERLL can cycle a 3rd time.

Yeah, don't use ERLL's on Stormcrows now, unless you only have 2E hardpoints. Just don't.

[CrushLibs]

3% 21% ,37% ,50% , 72% , 88% , overheats -- time to overheat 21 secs on a 6K with 4 LL on forest

The SC over heated in 11 secs on same map.

56 secs sounded stupid I agree and so do the figures.

I was using DPS since the OP was using DPS figures.

Edited by CrushLibs, 22 May 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 May 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

You can't alpha 4 LLs for 56 seconds though, I guarantee it.


I figured you knew about not face tanking but you are weighing everything so heavily on DPS its hard to believe. Seriously... DPS is not everything. It helps you do lots of damage if no one is looking at you but requires face-tanking to make it work.

DPS has always been a distant second fiddle to alpha strike damage. As you go down the skill ladder, though, DPS becomes ever more important because people spray and pray everything more and more rather than just surgically removing target sections.

CrushLibs, on 22 May 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

3% 21% ,37% ,50% , 72% , 88% , overheats -- time to overheat 21 secs on a 6K with 4 LL on forest

The SC over heated in 11 secs on same map.

56 secs sounded stupid I agree and so do the figures.

I was using DPS since the OP was using DPS figures.

This seems pretty fair, actually. What are the damage numbers for that?

The Stormcrow is faster, has a Clan XL + vastly superior hitboxes. Also, the stormcrow has the option to change it's build, the Wolverine has that or nothing, basically.

[CrushLibs]

on a 1/2 sec burst damage the two mechs are close on Damage

20.2 for the SC and 21.2 for the 6K

at .85 sec its 34 vs 36

So face damage is very close between the two

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 22 May 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

I get what you're aiming for, but I'm not looking at it that way. Yes, the Stormcrow is nothing like the Timberwolf (and the nerfs still don't make sense for the Stormcrow in some cases)... but you should really look at it from the stance that the mechs are compared to its peers in its WEIGHT CLASS.

Is that a good comparison though?

For starters, how long did we wait before we had a truly top tier medium mech that wasn't a liability (before quirks)?

That in and of itself was a feat.

Standing out in a crowd of mostly over-sized, under-tonned and many times under-gunned medium mechs isn't exactly hard.


Beyond that, there are several medium mechs that through quirks can either compete with or outclass the Stormcrow in their particular niche.

The Stormcrow's only crime was that it managed to do a lot of things very well, especially excel at mid-range.

I want more mechs like that in this game, not less.



I think it's ridiculous that a 55 ton mech, with 55 ton armor that - barring idiotic stories of invincibility - still needs to be careful but under many circumstances could actually keep pace with a lot of heavy mechs got nerfs nearly equal to the ones given to the TBR - a mech that it is clearly not equal too.


Would you be saying the same thing if they gave the FS9s TBR like nerfs? It's better than anything in it's weight class.


Should they also give +18% beam duration and +18% CD penalties to the Arctic Cheetah?

It's going to be the best in it's weight class too.


That is a poor way to balance a game, and completely ignores all of the disparities that exist between weight classes to begin with.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 May 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[John80sk]

Hit the Deck, on 22 May 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

You can because you add one cERML. According to my calculation, for one second of face time using the sample build you do:

• Damage from 1x cERLL + 5x cERML (1s) = 37.8 points of damage
  
• Damage from 1x cERLL + 6x cERML (1s) = 37.2 points of damage

The 0.6 point of damage difference is insignificant. The problem arises when you remove the cERML from the equation or if you can't add more cERML.



Using the old setup (1x cERLL + 5x cERML) the highest damage you can do is right when the cERMLs stop firing, or in other words, at 1,15s. At this time, you do:

• Damage from 1x cERLL + 5x cERML (1.15s) = 43.4 points of damage

When using the new setup (1x cERLL + 6x cERML), at 1.15s you do:

• Damage from 1x cERLL + 6x cERML (1.15s) = 42.7 points of damage

The new setup does 0.7 points of damage less. I think that's negligible.



PS: I arrived at these values by assuming that you get 18% Duration nerf.

Build was heat limited before, not so much cooldown limited. Adding another medium laser reduces that heat ceiling and increases time between pokes. Every time you're adding a medium laser, you're reducing that heat ceiling, and increasing the duration of the lasers. You might do the same amount of damage in the same amount of burn time, but you're doing so at increased cost.

Again, I don't think this is the death of the stormcrow or anything, but it did reduce its efficacy (which is again, a good thing).

[Yokaiko]

CrushLibs, on 22 May 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

on a 1/2 sec burst damage the two mechs are close on Damage

20.2 for the SC and 21.2 for the 6K

at .85 sec its 34 vs 36

So face damage is very close between the two

Except that the -6K has four more vollies to back the first.

Edited by Yokaiko, 22 May 2015 - 02:25 PM.

[MikeBend]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 May 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

So the response to PGI's attempts to reduce laser vomit is to add more laser vomit?

Excellent.

Working as intended! ROFL