68 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Yokaiko, on 14 August 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

A 300ST is less vulnerable (not usefull, but less) than a clan XL, since both mechs come stock with 300s.

Right, but that lower vulnerability comes at a high (tonnage) cost and it's not worth very much because losing both torsos might as well be death anyways. It would be worth more if it also meant avoiding engine damage penalties that actually do anything, but that's not the case.

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The Crab also has the option of a higher rated engine, allowing more speed, which is huge outside of comp play.

It is important, but so is firepower and the whale can easily pack a lot more firepower than the crab can at the same speed, which is my point.

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So tell me, how many players are actively in comp league? Compared to the rest of us that are slumming around in pickup CW groups outside of 12 mans.

That seems to assume that whales do poorly outside of comp play, which they don't unless the pilot is bad or their team is horrendously bad.

Lily from animove, on 14 August 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

STD survives both ST's lost, clan XL not. so dunno, but I wouldn call that "essentially STD Engine survivability"

It loses a side torso with barely any penalty to show for it so it's pretty damn close to STD engine survivability, and "surviving" with both side torsos gone isn't saying very much and is pretty much never worth the increased tonnage for that alone.

[Yokaiko]

Pjwned, on 14 August 2015 - 05:52 AM, said:

It loses a side torso with barely any penalty to show for it so it's pretty damn close to STD engine survivability, and "surviving" with both side torsos gone isn't saying very much and is pretty much never worth the increased tonnage for that alone.

Nothing about half of its weapons being gone....

[Pjwned]

Yokaiko, on 14 August 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Nothing about half of its weapons being gone....

I was talking about the engine, specifically about losing 20% of it with barely any penalty, which I guess I should have clarified again, but there you go.

[Lugh]

lordtzar, on 21 May 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

Well, how is the direwolf any better than the king crab?

It isn't. They both kick ass and take names. The crab as a slight advantage in it's base speed being higher as well, so it twists better to mitigate damage.

[Yokaiko]

Lugh, on 14 August 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

It isn't. They both kick ass and take names. The crab as a slight advantage in it's base speed being higher as well, so it twists better to mitigate damage.

and aim

[Lily from animove]

Pjwned, on 14 August 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

I was talking about the engine, specifically about losing 20% of it with barely any penalty, which I guess I should have clarified again, but there you go.

and here you go, you ignore the entire effects the engine comaprison coems and you only pick the parts that make your opinion look the way ou want it.

a STD engine can lose both sidetorsos, and leave the FS9 with 2 lasers left.
A XL on ACH means losing half the wepaons and not chance to survive both torsi left.

That is the survivability both engines offer.

[Mawai]

Part of the problem with this approach is that you have implicitly decided that the basic weapon balance between clans and IS is fine and that any problems can be addressed by tweaking individual mechs.

I am not sure that this is the case.

The general clan advantages are the following
- clan XL engines allow for greater mobility without dying to side torso loss - they also offer greater agility with little increased risk
- clan weapons generally have greater range and damage at the cost of greater heat. Their LRMs also do damage at less than 180m.

These characteristics mean that clan burst damage is generally higher than IS if the player has decent aim. Clan focused fire is also more effective due to higher alphas taking down opponents faster. The greater general speed and maneuverability means that clan mechs that get too hot will often have an opportunity to escape combat briefly to cool down. Assuming cover is available (which is plentiful on most maps) or they are engaging at range which clans are also better at.

IS tactics to counter these are generally to push into the clan mechs and force a situation where they do not get the opportunity to cool down. They overheat, shutdown and are destroyed by concentrated IS fire, at least ideally.

Anyway, this is the context in which you propose to put a lot of effort into balancing clan mechs. I feel it is largely a wasted effort except in a couple of outlier cases (like TBR and SCR) until PGI gets their balancing act together on the overall clan/IS mech balance. PGI has stated that their goal is "equal but different" and I don't think they are there yet. A few weapons like the clan ER ML still need some tweaks.

[LORD ORION]

Scout Derek, on 21 May 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

Before you comment, on this thread or in the following polls, please consider this:














Many people were angry over the Timber and Crow nerfs because, not of the values, but because of not being warned at all, not a little tip or suggestion at all said by PGI.

I have begun to make polls deciding which clan mechs will need a nerf and buffs, and won't.

You all have the option of: YES, MAYBE, and NO.

Currently, These are the choices on mechs that need nerfs:

Warhawk: http://mwomercs.com/...21#entry4449121

Hellbringer: http://mwomercs.com/...ning-on-quirks/

Dire Wolf: http://mwomercs.com/...tions-on-nerfs/

Currently, These are the choices on mechs that need buffs:

Summoner: http://mwomercs.com/...oning-on-buffs/

Dire Wolf: http://mwomercs.com/...oning-on-buffs/

Warhawk: http://mwomercs.com/...oning-on-buffs/


Currently we have topics with the balance of:

Ice Ferret: http://mwomercs.com/...ing-on-balance/



Following mechs will follow for buffs:

Mist Lynx

Adder

Nova

Gargoyle




Mech that have not been decided yet:

Vulture




Some mechs will be chosen for nerfs/buffs first. Later, some will be asked again (the ones that have been chosen for nerfs) if they need buffs.


This is Phase 1 of 3, that being:


P1: Determine buffs/nerfs of clan mechs

P2: Determine Buffs/Nerfs of Inner Sphere mechs

P3: Determine if IS and Clan mechs are buffed/nerfed appropriately to balance.

http://metamechs.com...mega-tier-list/

It is accurate... though top players might not agree with everything.

What you should be discussing is WHY these mechs are where they are and how Tier 6 to 10 can be brought up to Yier 1 thorugh 5.

Also note that several mechs are being rescaled, the Nova and Awesome will increase in strength if their rescaling is done to a useful level.

[Pjwned]

Lily from animove, on 14 August 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

and here you go, you ignore the entire effects the engine comaprison coems and you only pick the parts that make your opinion look the way ou want it.

The engine type has nothing to do with whether or not equipment is lost on side torso destruction, hence why I didn't bother considering it when comparing engines.

You don't seem to understand that engine damage is separate from losing a side torso component housing part of the engine, even if both are achieved by the same means, and with cXL engines that is particularly important to distinguish.

You're also a hypocrite by the way.

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a STD engine can lose both sidetorsos, and leave the FS9 with 2 lasers left.
A XL on ACH means losing half the wepaons and not chance to survive both torsi left.

That is the survivability both engines offer.

I didn't ignore that, I acknowledged it and then proceeded to say it barely matters, because it doesn't.

Want to tell me how what I said is actually wrong, that cXL engines essentially have the same survivability as STD engines? I didn't say it was exactly the same, because it's not, but the survivability is very similar because the penalty for losing 20% of the engine (which is, again, different from the penalty for side torso destruction) is pretty much nothing, and "surviving" as a zombie with a couple lasers left on a STD engine mech is just a straw to grasp for your weak argument; it barely matters because the tradeoff of having a much heavier STD engine is not worth that alone.

Edited by Pjwned, 14 August 2015 - 09:51 AM.