125 replies to this topic

[Fate 6]

Lugh, on 22 May 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

And I do. However, if everything was as it should be, people would just have to deal with it as well. Heat Neutral mechs are NOT the Anathema that Russ thinks they are.

Having weapons that don't jam isn't game changing either, as you can run them out of ammo which is the ultimate balancing mechanic as ballistics go.

And come on Bishop I know you miss knocking people over with collisions.

Yeah, because a Warhawk with TT DHS and TT ERPPCs would be REEEEALLY fun to play against in this game.

Mizeur, on 22 May 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

We totally need this. The IS wanted an ECM heavy because the HBR showed how useful that was in CW. Especially at 65 tons where you can take 2-3 of them. There's no game balance issue with not having a Clan ECM assault because the DDC is barely used in public queue let alone CW. Even then, at most you're going to see 12 total, not 36. Unless a team is crazy enough to bring 24 Locusts.

Alternatively, Clans are getting MASC mechs. Where are the IS mechs with MASC or triple strength myomer?

^
Plus the CTF sucks so it's not like it's even going to show up much.

Edited by Fate 6, 22 May 2015 - 12:04 PM.

[Mcgral18]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

True, our heatsinks are actually stronger, (about 2.2 - 2.4 on average)

2.3 maximum (simply 0.2*1.15)

average...depends on what the average heatsink count is. 15?

0.207 per heatsink with 15.

If you have 30 (obscene amount for no real reason) is 0.184 per heatsink.

[Chuck Jager]

Lugh, on 22 May 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Jesus on a stick. Clan lasers come pre nerfed. They have Longer Duration (means more face time) And higher Heat (means firing less often)

Stop sticking your fat face out in the open longer than it needs to be and you'll be fine. The only way they could nerf the clan lasers without totally gimping then would be to make them EXACTLY like IS lasers. And then let the crying begin.

You are not playing the same game I am. The "nerf" of 1 pt heat and .25 duration with a 50% increase in range for the med vs clan ermlas is the best deal the clan has going. You could even look at it compared to an IS large laser that is 500% heavier and has an 11% range increase with 2pts more damage at the same heat. Even with the SCR TBR 1.28 (approx 12%) burn times (anything more is a user issue) they still have the best range/damage/heat/exposure output per ton in the game and this output is even higher at the ranges where the game is decided. The low tonnage allows the user to equip more heat sinks that allow quicker dissipation. The increase in burn time they have is so minimal versus the extra speed/durability med - assault clan mechs it is ridiculous. I have noticed burn times make a difference below .8 sec and above 1.25 and the cermlas sits in the sweet spot. You can also mount these puppies along with clan lplas to bypass ghost heat/weight/crit slot restrictions.

I love playing clan mechs, but my patience is wearing thin with the hordes of clan pilots who do not recognize that the sum benefits of cermlas is equivalent to the top 90% of quirks. These also make the medium to poor clan chassis designs so much more playable and easier to level than their equal quality IS counter parts.

If somebody can not understand the above comparison, it goes a long ways towards explaining the hysteria around the cGauss in game performance (3 ton loss in weight for zero heat) versus the loss in pinpoint damage of the cUACs.

[Koniks]

Fate 6, on 22 May 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Plus the CTF sucks so it's not like it's even going to show up much.

I wouldn't say it sucks. But it doesn't have the Swiss Army Knife builds the HBR does. It'll have a niche. Just a pretty small one.

ETA: the ECM GRF is clearly the bigger game changer. But hey, Shadow Cat in 3 weeks.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 May 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Mizeur, on 22 May 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

I wouldn't say it sucks. But it doesn't have the Swiss Army Knife builds the HBR does. It'll have a niche. Just a pretty small one.

ETA: the ECM GRF is clearly the bigger game changer. But hey, Shadow Cat in 3 weeks.

Shadow Cat won't be too great.

Can't make excessive use of lasers (2 LPLs a tad hot, 2 ERMLs LPL rivals a Raven, with better cooling), MASC prevents use of a Gauss and lasers, 3 SRMs and 2E...well, you don't really want to be within 300M with a 45 ton robot.


The Ice Fridge has more firepower (with that 5th E hardpoint).
It will be annoying at range with excellent mounts and the Jesus Box. Like...a Raven. A 45 ton Raven, that does jump (and it should jump pretty nice with 6, at 45 tons).

[1453 R]

The GRF-2N is a rampaging murderbeast, or at least would be if SRMs worked better. Even with once-again-wonky SRM hitreg issues, it's still probably the best Spheroid medium 'Mech currently in the game. To the point where it's made me not only very seriously consider breaking my 'none of these ludicrously overpriced 'Reinforcement' 'Mechs' creed, but to do so while getting into Griffins, a chassis I have otherwise never touched.

4M with ECM and a mobile 2E, with jump jets, at the 55-ton sweet spot? All the hellz yeah. This right here? I'd pilot the absolute hell out of it. I may do it yet at some point here, Clan driver or no. The Shadow Cat's going to be awesome, and will basically be a Clan edition of the same 'Mech (Matter of fact, 3x cASRM-6 and a couple of cERML is one of the top builds I have in mind for the Shadow Cat), but I will be honest here - I'd gladly take on most any Stormcrow that wasn't itself an SRM brawler in that particular GRF up there mano-a-mano in the correct range, and for that matter I'd be perfectly content playing footsie with Clan beamspam builds quite a few tons heftier if I could manage to get the drop on them with that ECM.

The Cataphract, while perfectly serviceable, ain't got nuttin' on the GRF-2N.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Clan Assault with ECM...don't see why, but sure, why not.

Can you folks at least STOP picking builds that don't exist for another 4 or more years though, I mean, really, OMNIMECHS, duh, you don't need to pick a canon variant to add an ECM, just find one that's not so hot, remove something useless, a gauss or UAC20, and replace it with an ECM.

I mean, according to MOST folks, the ECM is at least as powerful a tool as a gauss or UAC20 right, so it should replace one of those hardpoints, right? If that's too much to remove to add the ECM, then maybe, JUST maybe, the hyperbole should stop, ya think?

I could don't give a surat's furry hindquarters about the Clans getting an ECM Assault, it's not a big deal. CW, NO ONE uses LRMs, or so I keep being told by all the 'top players', so the ECM won't effect any LRM users since they don't exist, right? Assaults aren't exactly LITTLE, so they aren't exactly easy to miss at long ranges. True, you won't be able to target them but who cares, it's a CLAN ASSAULT, who the hell could it possibly be in CW but the enemy, SHOOT IT! And outside of CW, that doesn't count, that's just lameass underhive PUGs who obviously don't count because they are not serious players, am I right?

Seriously, I don't care if they toss an ECM capable OmniPod on the Dire, Gargoyle, Executioner or Warhawk because I ain't real bothered by ECM in the first place, and I happen to enjoy using LRM support builds, ECM just isn't that big of a deal to anyone with eyeballs and enough skill to avoid shooting themselves in the face. Since we literally can't shoot ourselves in the face, I have to consider the fact that so many of you are just blind due to the whining about ECM, but hey, that's cool, MWO is a game that's handicapable..that's the right term isn't it?

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Shadow Cat won't be too great.

Can't make excessive use of lasers (2 LPLs a tad hot, 2 ERMLs LPL rivals a Raven, with better cooling), MASC prevents use of a Gauss and lasers, 3 SRMs and 2E...well, you don't really want to be within 300M with a 45 ton robot.


The Ice Fridge has more firepower (with that 5th E hardpoint).
It will be annoying at range with excellent mounts and the Jesus Box. Like...a Raven. A 45 ton Raven, that does jump (and it should jump pretty nice with 6, at 45 tons).

Can you do gauss and 2 ER MLs with enough ammo? That wouldn't be too bad for a little jumper.

[Fate 6]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Shadow Cat won't be too great.

LOL
It will outperform the Ice Ferret, Cicada, Vindicator, and Blackjack.

[FupDup]

Fate 6, on 22 May 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

LOL
It will outperform the Ice Ferret, Cicada, Vindicator, and Blackjack.

That's not setting the bar very high.

That aside, I do expect the Scat to be a decently effective robot.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 May 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Can you do gauss and 2 ER MLs with enough ammo? That wouldn't be too bad for a little jumper.

With ECM? No, 15 tons.

Without, at 16, Gauss 2 tons 2 ERMLs.

With MASC removed, those extra 2 tons let you bring 2 ERMLs, ECM, Gauss+3 tons of ammo. That would be enough.

Fate 6, on 22 May 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

LOL
It will outperform the Ice Ferret, Cicada, Vindicator, and Blackjack.

Laservomits worse than Cicadas, Fridges, BJs, boats PPCs worse than Vindies (I know...that's a stretch)

Carries Dakka worse than BJs (UAC10 with sufficient buffs is tempting...but that's not a certainty yet)

It's a fat Raven. That's the best comparison I've found.

2 LPLs, ECM, ERML is pretty toasty for a 33 damage alpha, 12 DHS.

2 LPLs, ECM, 3DHS is acceptable, but still a tad toasty

For a moderately sustainable alpha, 2 ERMLs, LPL, 7DHS, ECM, it cools pretty well.


It lacks the hardpoints to laservomit (Fridge can do that with 35 damage and 16DHS)

2 ERLLs and 3 SRM4s is something that would run toasty due to lack of DHS (but you wouldn't use the ERLLs up close anyway) but might be acceptable.


Run the loadouts on Stormcrows to get an idea on heat.

Edited by Mcgral18, 22 May 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Koniks]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Shadow Cat won't be too great.

Can't make excessive use of lasers (2 LPLs a tad hot, 2 ERMLs LPL rivals a Raven, with better cooling), MASC prevents use of a Gauss and lasers, 3 SRMs and 2E...well, you don't really want to be within 300M with a 45 ton robot.


The Ice Fridge has more firepower (with that 5th E hardpoint).
It will be annoying at range with excellent mounts and the Jesus Box. Like...a Raven. A 45 ton Raven, that does jump (and it should jump pretty nice with 6, at 45 tons).

I think you mean a Cicada. We also don't know how useful MASC will be on it. If it can get in and out, then the SRMs or Streaks will be incredibly useful on an ECM striker.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 May 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

With ECM? No, 15 tons.

Without, at 16, Gauss 2 tons 2 ERMLs.

With MASC removed, those extra 2 tons let you bring 2 ERMLs, ECM, Gauss+3 tons of ammo. That would be enough.

Oh... well F$%&...

[Gyrok]

Khobai, on 22 May 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

No.

But if Clan lasers got a much needed nerf, IS SRMs got a much needed buff, and the Atlas-D-DC got proper armor quirks it might at least be able to put up a good fight in brawling range.

A DDC with a brawler build and a big engine will actually wreck a DW up close...the issue for most is closing the gap.

[Creovex]

GAR-C.... ECM....CT.... because the C just sucks...

[Gyrok]

Chuck YeaGurr, on 22 May 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

You are not playing the same game I am. The "nerf" of 1 pt heat and .25 duration with a 50% increase in range for the med vs clan ermlas is the best deal the clan has going. You could even look at it compared to an IS large laser that is 500% heavier and has an 11% range increase with 2pts more damage at the same heat. Even with the SCR TBR 1.28 (approx 12%) burn times (anything more is a user issue) they still have the best range/damage/heat/exposure output per ton in the game and this output is even higher at the ranges where the game is decided. The low tonnage allows the user to equip more heat sinks that allow quicker dissipation. The increase in burn time they have is so minimal versus the extra speed/durability med - assault clan mechs it is ridiculous. I have noticed burn times make a difference below .8 sec and above 1.25 and the cermlas sits in the sweet spot. You can also mount these puppies along with clan lplas to bypass ghost heat/weight/crit slot restrictions.

I love playing clan mechs, but my patience is wearing thin with the hordes of clan pilots who do not recognize that the sum benefits of cermlas is equivalent to the top 90% of quirks. These also make the medium to poor clan chassis designs so much more playable and easier to level than their equal quality IS counter parts.

If somebody can not understand the above comparison, it goes a long ways towards explaining the hysteria around the cGauss in game performance (3 ton loss in weight for zero heat) versus the loss in pinpoint damage of the cUACs.

You are also neglecting the fact that, with quirks, many IS chassis have MLs that are hot on the heels of the CERML. In fact, once the IS ERML comes, I think it will be safe to say that we probably will see lots of range quirks evaporate.

As for the advantages there, you forget to mention that the CERML is also the second hottest DPH weapon in the game, second only to the PPC family. The beam duration of the CERML is also longer than the IS LPL and LL. Both of which pay tonnage to run far more heat efficient and shorter duration, for tons of damage.

In fact, if we were discussing damage per tick on beam weapons, The IS MPL is the most efficient weapon in the game. Period. It is only followed extremely closely by the IS LPL, which is off by a difference of .05 (0.60 versus 0.55).

So, while I agree the CERML is a strong weapon, it pays heavily for it, and it is not a viable sustained DPS weapon. The IS options run significantly cooler, and are very easily accommodated on many lighter platform sorts of mechs.

[Flutterguy]

Gyrok, if you're so confident that clans have comparatively worse lasers can you prove it to me using the IS small laser and the clan small pulse laser? Any metric will do (DPS, DPH, etc). I find 2 IS small lasers vs. 1 c-spl to be a very easy point of comparison.

Edited by Flutterguy, 22 May 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Kristov Kerensky, on 22 May 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Clan Assault with ECM...don't see why, but sure, why not.

Can you folks at least STOP picking builds that don't exist for another 4 or more years though, I mean, really, OMNIMECHS, duh, you don't need to pick a canon variant to add an ECM, just find one that's not so hot, remove something useless, a gauss or UAC20, and replace it with an ECM.

I mean, according to MOST folks, the ECM is at least as powerful a tool as a gauss or UAC20 right, so it should replace one of those hardpoints, right? If that's too much to remove to add the ECM, then maybe, JUST maybe, the hyperbole should stop, ya think?

I could don't give a surat's furry hindquarters about the Clans getting an ECM Assault, it's not a big deal. CW, NO ONE uses LRMs, or so I keep being told by all the 'top players', so the ECM won't effect any LRM users since they don't exist, right? Assaults aren't exactly LITTLE, so they aren't exactly easy to miss at long ranges. True, you won't be able to target them but who cares, it's a CLAN ASSAULT, who the hell could it possibly be in CW but the enemy, SHOOT IT! And outside of CW, that doesn't count, that's just lameass underhive PUGs who obviously don't count because they are not serious players, am I right?

Seriously, I don't care if they toss an ECM capable OmniPod on the Dire, Gargoyle, Executioner or Warhawk because I ain't real bothered by ECM in the first place, and I happen to enjoy using LRM support builds, ECM just isn't that big of a deal to anyone with eyeballs and enough skill to avoid shooting themselves in the face. Since we literally can't shoot ourselves in the face, I have to consider the fact that so many of you are just blind due to the whining about ECM, but hey, that's cool, MWO is a game that's handicapable..that's the right term isn't it?

You know, most of the mechs listed are within the timeline: Execution I, Gargoyle hero (Conal), even the DWF-C (it's 3054 tech, but hey, we just had Tukayyid, what's to stop us from making that tiny timeline jump?)


Also, for all the DWF with ECM stuff:

Spoiler

Marack Drock, on 22 May 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

Edited by IraqiWalker, 22 May 2015 - 03:20 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

I checked them all Walker, they are all later in the timeline, all use weapons that don't exist for another 4 or more years. Besides, like I said, OmniMechs, just toss an ECM on a ST pod, sell it for cash for a month or so, then MC, then cbills, SOP. The cries of P2W will amuse me to no end and there's no need to jump the timeline, just create a new variant with ECM, it's has precedent after all

[IraqiWalker]

We're in 3052, the DWF-C is 3054 tech.