97 replies to this topic

[YueFei]

Ultimatum X, on 23 May 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

I understand exactly what fup is saying, I'm not even saying I disagree.

I'm saying the AC 2 is unlikely to change and I'm not going to waste time and energy thinking about it in a topic that has a different focus to begin with.

NGNG: mechs, devs and beer with Paul.

Listen to it. He's not changing AC 2s anytime soon.

Well, still, maybe we could expand on the idea of RealShake™ to be added to the game, to differentiate weapon types.

People aren't happy with Clan autocannons at the moment... laser vomit is seen as more effective. On the other hand, laser weapons cause zero shake. Perhaps if Clan autocannons caused RealShake, they might be a more attractive alternative to lasers. It'd be another dimension along which weapons could be balanced.

Imagine two mechs trading fire, one is laser vomit, the other is dakka vomit. If they're hitting each other at roughly the same time, the dakka vomit could skew the laser vomit's aim. The laser user would have a harder time keeping his aim true, or he would have to hold his fire for a moment to try to time his shot in between the AC volleys.

One of the most thrilling things from Mech4 was if you nailed someone a split second before they pulled the trigger on all of their weapons. An entire alpha strike hitting the dirt at your feet.

Edited by YueFei, 23 May 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Johnny Z, on 22 May 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

See Clan weapons weigh less, do more damage, have longer range, take up less slots, but some Inner Sphere mechs have some weapons that have about the same range, very few though, and that leads to Giant Clan Baby tantrums. That they dont have every advantage to exploit is tear worthy if your a Clan pilot.

+1 nerf the crutch jockeys



Where is your crutch in this picture.

Seriously JohnnyZ, #lrn2MWO


I recently made a post about people like you on these forums. Here, let me quote it for ya!

"I am going to say this one time only for all you knuckle draggers out there in the IS about Clan mechs compared to IS mechs: slots and weight of weapons/heat sinks/ etc is irrelevant when the two chassis are compared. IS mechs have much more free tonnage and space than clanners, as well as the option to increase or decrease that space/tonnage as your build dictates. If Clan weapons and gear weighed/used same # of slots as IS gear then NO clan mech could mount more than your typical IS light. It is a fundamental difference in the design philosophy built into the game structure more for aesthetic purposes than anything else. Anyone claiming that this is a clam op advantage either 1: Has never owned any clan mechs and/or doesn't understand how to use the mech bay/ smurfy's ( explaining alot of the builds we see in game ) or 2: Is being intellectually dishonest ( for those of you in Davion or Wolf space that's a big fancy word for liar ). "

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 22 May 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

And moduled with a 10% range boost, the isERLL has a 810M range.

Ghost heat on 3 cERLLs is 4.4 heat less than 4 isERLLs, 33 damage VS 34.

2 cERLLs is 22 damage and 20 heat, 3 isERLLx is 27 damage for 24 heat.


Not sure where I'm abusing math.

With a friendly tone, just so you don't think I'm trying to be an arse and rag on you all the time:

You are ignoring how the disparity between a C-ERLL and IS-ERLL in terms of tonnage and slots stacks quickly with multiple mounts. On 'Mechs more dramatically starved for slots and tonnage than anything short of a Mist Lynx, to boot. So if it's always one more IS laser for every Clan laser, you are now at a 7 ton disadvantage when the enemy has only two and an 8 ton disadvantage when he has three.

You are ignoring that you can build in way more heat cap and dissipation into a Clan ERLL boat than you can into an Inner Sphere one, and the quirks only level the difference at best, and usually not even that. The three-slot requirement of IS DHS is pretty brutal.

You are ignoring that at an 814 meter C-ERLL is still doing about 10.87 damage at 911 meters to the 9 on the IS ERLL, and that you can close that gap even more by using targeting computers while IS are stuck with whatever they can squeeze out using modules and quirks on a specific chassis that is more than likely sub-par. Not a good build, but since we're talking strictly firepower and heat, here...

And finally, you are deliberately ignoring that there are no totally open firing lanes long enough on any map for the absolute range advantage on the quirked IS ERLL to matter, not even Boreal or Alpine.

We can go around this all day, every day, but there is no getting around vanilla Inner Sphere lasers being complete trash. They are heavy, bulky, short-ranged, and competing with large heat-sinks, heavy or bulky engines, and the requisite 14 slots claimed by Endo for a spot on your 'Mech. All IS 'Mechs are basically like the Summoner and Gargoyle, but with the option to move at snails pace to gain some firepower. The only Inner Sphere 'Mechs that can compete directly in a trade are thus very heavy and very slow, and anything else IS has as "meta" is simply the "best of the worst" and still loses to the perfectly-weighted Stormcrows and Hellbringers. The Thud is about the only other thing they have, and it's a one-trick pony that's not so great at the 500-600 meter medium range game where matches are typically decided if both teams are even.

I want Clans and Inner sphere to be what PGI stated: different but equal. But they aren't that right now (getting closer, though), and they won't ever be without some dramatic changes to the base weapon stats and Clan hard-liners giving up the ghost on Clan tech having to be flat-out superior. That can't happen in this game, period, without radical transformation of mode format and the required cash and talent infusions to make that happen.

Elkfire, on 22 May 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

I'm sure it's probably been said, but to reiterate:

Clan "laservomit" (a term which, as someone who has always enjoyed energy weapon builds in MW games, makes me sad) is so prevalent because most of the other Clan weapons aren't very good compared to IS ones. Clan LRMS are stream-fire, clan Autocannons are stream-fire, etc. Clan SRMs aren't much different, at least, but SRMs aren't super awesome in general.

Clan SRMs are straight-up superior on account of being able to just casually throw them onto any 'Mech to augment its close-range capabilities.

IS autocannons look good on paper, but then you mount them to your 'Mech and notice you have to make a decision that picks one and a half from among speed, armor, ammo, or backup firepower. You want twin UAC/5 on a Hellbringer with far-reaching laser backup and 89 kph top speed and 4.5 tons of ammo? Sure, easy! You want that on a Jager? Yeah, no, only if you like the idea of dying to a single side-coring, and even then you are running hotter and heavier and with shorter range and slightly lower firepower and still have to make the decision between long-range laser backup and speed because the requisite 3x LL are going to force you down to an XL235.

If autocannons were as good as you are implying, you'd see an IS auto-cannon meta in non-CW game modes, and you simply don't. Clan auto-cannons suck, make no mistake, but you should notice that the best IS 'mechs are those that can most closely approximate Clan laser-boats, so it's not like the IS have better options, either.

[Aresye]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 May 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Clan auto-cannons suck, make no mistake, but you should notice that the best IS 'mechs are those that can most closely approximate Clan laser-boats, so it's not like the IS have better options, either.

Part of that is also because hitreg is oddly skewed to having better performance with lasers than other weapons.

Clan/IS balance isn't the sole reason why everybody is boating lasers nowadays.

[YueFei]

Aresye Kerensky, on 23 May 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

Part of that is also because hitreg is oddly skewed to having better performance with lasers than other weapons.

Clan/IS balance isn't the sole reason why everybody is boating lasers nowadays.

Hitscan is easier to deal with computationally than projectiles.

I still remember gaming with an old 56k modem in Quake 2 CTF. Sometimes the guys with good connections and low latency (LPBs) would deliberately use the Hyperblaster en-masse to lag other guys out. I'd have a ping of 400ms which was a challenge as it was with no host-state-rewind. Next thing you know I enter the other team's flag chamber and 5 guys are spewing rapid-fire hyperblaster bolts at me and everything freezes up and I disconnect.

Hyperblasters weren't even that effective. Most people preferred railguns, rocket launchers, the chaingun, or the shotty. All were hitscan except for the rocket launcher but that only shot 1 projectile at a time and had a slow rate of fire. It's just that once in a while people would literally use that to lag out HPBs.

[Y E O N N E]

Aresye Kerensky, on 23 May 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

Part of that is also because hitreg is oddly skewed to having better performance with lasers than other weapons.

Clan/IS balance isn't the sole reason why everybody is boating lasers nowadays.

Lasers dominate for many reasons; ease of use, high damage-to-weight efficiency, and lack of ammo dependency (for CW) are chief among them. I wasn't necessarily trying to say that it was balance making the IS bring lasers so much as IS players have come to the same conclusions about optimum damage dealing that the Clan players arrived at, first. The balance comes into play when choosing the 'Mech to apply it to, because you want the combination of quirks and geometry that level the playing field as best as possible. Thus, Stalker over Battlemaster.

I'm not convinced most claims of bad hit registration aren't imagined, anyway. Last video I saw on the matter was a guy hitting a Timber Wolf in the side torso and claiming bad hit-reg on the CT.

[Johnny Z]

VorpalAnvil, on 23 May 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Seriously JohnnyZ, #lrn2MWO


I recently made a post about people like you on these forums. Here, let me quote it for ya!

"I am going to say this one time only for all you knuckle draggers out there in the IS about Clan mechs compared to IS mechs: slots and weight of weapons/heat sinks/ etc is irrelevant when the two chassis are compared. IS mechs have much more free tonnage and space than clanners, as well as the option to increase or decrease that space/tonnage as your build dictates. If Clan weapons and gear weighed/used same # of slots as IS gear then NO clan mech could mount more than your typical IS light. It is a fundamental difference in the design philosophy built into the game structure more for aesthetic purposes than anything else. Anyone claiming that this is a clam op advantage either 1: Has never owned any clan mechs and/or doesn't understand how to use the mech bay/ smurfy's ( explaining alot of the builds we see in game ) or 2: Is being intellectually dishonest ( for those of you in Davion or Wolf space that's a big fancy word for liar ). "

I make alot of stupid replies, but I draw the line at quoting my own stupid replies.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 May 2015 - 12:45 AM.

[Sarlic]

I gave up on discussing with clanners since most of them tends to lead a tunnelvision. (Note: i don't mean everybody or anyone in particular) They simply look at numbers without their current advantages (tech and chassis related) compared to IS mechs. If you pick numbers you should take all advantages (and non advantages) in account and then base your findings.

Yeonne Greene is as a example exactly the type who i can discus with, because he gets the point.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 May 2015 - 12:58 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Johnny Z, on 24 May 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

I make alot of stupid replies, but I draw the line at quoting my own stupid replies.

Are you actually going to refute anything I said, or just make smart ass remarks because I'm right?

[Khobai]

Quote

Lasers dominate for many reasons

or just one: range. the range on clan lasers needs to be nerfed. same with the range on gauss.

brawling weapons like CUACs and IS SRMs also need to be buffed. and by bringing back brawling you also make LRMs stronger since brawling and LRMs have an affinity with eachother.

[MechB Kotare]

Cut from my older post.

Quote

- Decrease damage and beam duration of both cERLL (10dmg/1.3s) and cLPL (12dmg/1.10s). Minor range advantages for clans, but also higher heat generation for clans. Also maybe cERML? (6dmg/0.9s)

- Twitch certain overperforming mechs with addition (negative) heat "quirks".

- Fix for U/ACs comming soon. Im now scared hows it gonna end up?

Laser beam durations are stupid quirks. They make some weapon systems totally useless on those mechs. (Like TW/SCR - cERLL on them, is replacable with cLPL in everyway. Quriks make already long duration beam even longer and unplayable. You are unable to trade with ISERLLs and ERPPCs and w/e.

Shorten the the beams, decreas damages, increase the heat, make only slight diferences in between C-IS. Apply negative HEAT quirks on overperforming mechs.

????

Profit!
But no, lets keep clan weapons overpowered by damage, we will just simply relaese negative quirks, which makes the certain weapon totally useless.

^ PGI way of balancing.

[Johnny Z]

VorpalAnvil, on 24 May 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

Are you actually going to refute anything I said, or just make smart ass remarks because I'm right?

Nope Im just going to quietly giggle about my funny, because Im right. Want me to quote it for you? Teehee

Your probly new and that was a bit mean so no offense just kidding.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 May 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Ultimax]

MechB Kotare, on 24 May 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Cut from my older post.



Laser beam durations are stupid quirks. They make some weapon systems totally useless on those mechs. (Like TW/SCR - cERLL on them, is replacable with cLPL in everyway. Quriks make already long duration beam even longer and unplayable. You are unable to trade with ISERLLs and ERPPCs and w/e.

Shorten the the beams, decreas damages, increase the heat, make only slight diferences in between C-IS. Apply negative HEAT quirks on overperforming mechs.

????

Profit!
But no, lets keep clan weapons overpowered by damage, we will just simply release negative quirks, which makes the certain weapon totally useless.

^ PGI way of balancing.

I get the direction you are aiming for, but your solution isn't actually good for every clan mech.

The Warhawk is probably the worst case scenario, where it's constantly trying to use all of it's tonnage before running out of crit space and hardpoints - while simultaneously trying to avoid ghost heat load outs.

That means it always needs to favor the heaviest weapons - and nerfing the damage those weapons do also drops what it's potential is - because it's simply unable to every boat smaller weapons for larger impact.




What the TBR & SCR got, I don't exactly agree with - but in a way they did effectively take a heat efficiency penalty already.


Instead of simply adding more heat to their load outs, they had their efficiency reduced as they can't really maximize the full burn of the laser loadouts they can bring.


So instead of something like 2x CLPL + 4x CERMLAS going from 44 heat to deal 54 damage - up to something massively hot like 52 heat (+20%) - instead the heat to damage ratio stays the same but you are unlikely to actually deal that full 54 damage due to the burn times.


TL;DR they took damage and/or heat nerf through efficiency loss.

[Ragtag soldier]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 May 2015 - 12:21 AM, said:

Lasers dominate for many reasons; ease of use, high damage-to-weight efficiency, and lack of ammo dependency (for CW) are chief among them.

i'd say all of this, while very heavily in laser's favor in the current build, all take a back seat to the fact that lasers need zero lead time to compensate for enemy speed and have no capacity to collide on terrain not directly in their path. even ignoring how hit detection tends to drop shots with weapons firing rapid small projectiles, PPCs, missiles, and ballistics almost universally suffer in accuracy and speed from needing to lead a target to accurately hit compared to lasers. lasers simply have the highest skill floor, they can't be as bad as other weapons in the hands of a crap player.

[FupDup]

Ragtag soldier, on 24 May 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

i'd say all of this, while very heavily in laser's favor in the current build, all take a back seat to the fact that lasers need zero lead time to compensate for enemy speed and have no capacity to collide on terrain not directly in their path. even ignoring how hit detection tends to drop shots with weapons firing rapid small projectiles, PPCs, missiles, and ballistics almost universally suffer in accuracy and speed from needing to lead a target to accurately hit compared to lasers. lasers simply have the highest skill floor, they can't be as bad as other weapons in the hands of a crap player.

What you mean to say is that lazors have a low skill floor, which means they are easier for a low-level player to pick up and do well with.

High skill floor means that something requires a good deal of practice before you can be effective with it. In MWO, the weapon with the highest skill floor is probably the Gauss after it had its charge-up mechanic added.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 24 May 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

What you mean to say is that lazors have a low skill floor, which means they are easier for a low-level player to pick up and do well with.

High skill floor means that something requires a good deal of practice before you can be effective with it. In MWO, the weapon with the highest skill floor is probably the Gauss after it had its charge-up mechanic added.

I think the high skill floor involves PPCs.. when they are UNQUIRKED.

Running PPCs in a Nova-A is a lot of fun.. I tried doing that before w/o quirks and it was so freaking meddling.

We can't have nice unquirked PPCs.

[Y E O N N E]

Sarlic, on 24 May 2015 - 12:53 AM, said:

I gave up on discussing with clanners since most of them tends to lead a tunnelvision. (Note: i don't mean everybody or anyone in particular) They simply look at numbers without their current advantages (tech and chassis related) compared to IS mechs. If you pick numbers you should take all advantages (and non advantages) in account and then base your findings.

Yeonne Greene is as a example exactly the type who i can discus with, because he gets the point.

I would hazard a guess and say that most people on here are not engineers, and systemic thinking is thus not par for the course. Even then, some are just really attached to the idea that Clans are just supposed to be better for whatever cause including lore and being superior in previous MW games they've played. Those are hard barriers to break with objective reason because they are not rooted in objective reason, they are rooted in personal values. From a mechanical standpoint, the personal values are completely irrelevant but, from a marketing perspective, they probably have to pay attention to them. Only PGI can do the analysis to know what the trade-offs are when swinging the weight for one or the other.

[Weeny Machine]

I think the laser spam won’t stop for a myriad of reasons:

• Range

The deviation from the TT when it comes to range is problematic at least. Brawlers and light mechs can easily be fired at before they are even near and get softened up before they are even in range to retaliate. What advantage has a softened up brawler then in close range?

The damage reduction for surpassing max. range doesn’t help much because several mechs are usually spamming, especially in CW. And what do they lose? No ammo, nothing. Except they gain some heat which is also no problem because they can simply move into cover.

• Easy useable

Just click and do some damage. Jup, it can be spread and all, however, you do damage. The burn time where you expose yourself is also no issue compared to e.g. ACs or PPCs.
Take a (ER)PPC for example:
You are in cover, peek out, now you have to locate your opponent, figure in velocity (most enemies move after all) and fire. On the sickening ranges lasers are still accurate, you have to be pretty good to hit anything and also need your time to evaluate when to fire. In this time you are exposed.
Also: good luck twisting during this time

• ECM

Without the red square it is harder locating, and judging the movement of a target. Adding to the time you need to expose yourself to assess when the time is right to fire. Again, lasers don’t care for the movement aspect.