244 replies to this topic

[Repasy Cooper]

The Summoner is hailed for being a highly mobile omnimech, with a powerful YET SIMPLE loadout. I'd say that the current Summoner in-game fits that description perfectly.

It will never outgun a Timber Wolf, but it can outmatch it in maneuverability. The Summoner is less about weapon superiority and more about using the terrain to your advantage. The Summoner pilot should always target enemies with low maneuverability, basically any mech at 70+ tons w/o jump jets. The Summoner's extra speed allows it to outrun any mech that can match tonnage with it.

Terrain use is EXTREMELY important! You have enough speed to keep a step ahead of enemy heavies, but that will do you no good if you walk into an open valley, or if you get cornered/flanked by several mechs. As such, you should always attempt to stay on the outside edge of engagements, keeping close to cliffs and/or valleys that you can duck into to avoid fire. It's also advisable to work with at least one other mech, such as a Kit Fox, Stormcrow, or Hellbringer. The ONLY time you should ever jump into the fray from the outside edge of battle is to quickly dispatch a crippled enemy, and when you do so you should always have an exit from combat, in case you need to make a tactical retreat from the area.

If you get swarmed by enemy lights, you're pretty much screwed, so don't ever let that happen. You might be able to deal with one or two mediums, depending on their speed/loadout, but again if they're faster than you you've just lost your main advantage.

Your loadout also affects play. If you bring a S-SRM6 or a Large Pulse Laser, you may be able to deal with lighter mechs more effectively. If you're dead set on brawling, then the SMN-C is your best bet. The SMN-D is your dedicated long-range variant, and you should always stick with your company to give AMS coverage. I've converted my SMN-B into a dedicated streakboat that I find highly effective in urban settings, or in steep terrain where lights can't make full use of their maneuverability.

[Ursh]

Jump jet thrust would be a good one. There have been so many times where I've struggled to clear not so high terrain and I screamed out "Mothereffer get your butt in the air". 5 tons of jump jets should take me places where light mechs with 1 ton of jump jets can go.

The role of skirting the edge of an engagement and harassing can also be done by another mech, the Timberwolf, because on heavy mechs 2 jump jets are almost as good as 5, thanks to the silly diminishing returns curve PGI added to them, where you get a big boost from 1 jump jet, and marginal gains from additional ones.

[Anakha]

There are so many things PGI could do to help the lack of tonnage situation yet does nothing. Such as making fixed JJ weigh less, ammo per ton quirks, increase energy heat gen quirks, etc... Just allowing it to upgrade to Endo like every other mech in the game would go a long way to help with the situation. I still don't understand why PGI prohibits it only on certain Clan mechs which are clearly not as good as others in their weight class. Yet ALL IS mechs and only certain Clan mechs that PGI chooses get it. Makes no sense. Don't know how you are supposed to balance mechs with something as critical as Endo steel not being available to certain mechs. It is the single biggest upgrade to a chassis you can do in MWO to save weight.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Anakha, on 25 May 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Don't know how you are supposed to balance mechs with something as critical as Endo steel not being available to certain mechs.

Well they could always try and balance it like MW4 did by making Endo Steel give Mechs a 100% damage transfer rate as opposed to the 40-45% we currently enjoy.....but that won't ever happen. Plus I would rather have tonnage on my Summoner, it is already plenty durable.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 25 May 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Clan SRMs does have an increased spread, which is an actual fact.

However, the spread increase from my recollection isn't significant enough.

Artemis AFAIK reduces the spread of SRMs (and probably LRMs as well) by 33%.

Since I'm bored, I'll just put out a table based on the in-game XML data...

  <Weapon id="1004" name="SRM4" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM4,ISSRM,ISSRM4" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@SRM4" descTag="@SRM4_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\SRM4.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Missile" projectileclass="waypointrocket" numFiring="4" damage="2.15" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.11" heatPenaltyID="4" heat="3" cooldown="3.0" ammoType="SRMAmmo" ammoPerShot="4" minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" tons="2" duration="0.0" lifetime="15.0" speed="300" volleydelay="0.25" maxheight="0" radius="0.05" artemisAmmoType="SRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size="0.005" formation_size_per_index="0.025" spread="5.2" />
 
  <Weapon id="1030" name="SRM2" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM2,ISSRM,ISSRM2" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@SRM2" descTag="@SRM2_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\SRM2.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Missile" projectileclass="waypointrocket" numFiring="2" damage="2.15" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="5" impulse="0.11" heat="2" cooldown="2.0" ammoType="SRMAmmo" ammoPerShot="2" minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" tons="1" duration="0.0" lifetime="15.0" speed="300" volleydelay="0.25" maxheight="0" radius="0.05" artemisAmmoType="SRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size="0.005" formation_size_per_index="0.025" spread="4.8" />
 
 
  <Weapon id="1031" name="SRM6" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM6,ISSRM,ISSRM6" faction="InnerSphere">
	<Loc nameTag="@SRM6" descTag="@SRM6_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\SRM6.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="2" type="Missile" projectileclass="waypointrocket" numFiring="6" damage="2.15" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.11" heatPenaltyID="4" heat="4.0" cooldown="4.0" ammoType="SRMAmmo" ammoPerShot="6" minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" tons="3" duration="0.0" lifetime="15.0" speed="300" volleydelay="0.25" radius="0.05" artemisAmmoType="SRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size="0.005" formation_size_per_index="0.025" spread="5.7" />
 
 
  <Weapon id="1226" name="ClanSRM2" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM2,ClanSRM,ClanSRM2" faction="Clan">
	<Loc nameTag="@ClanSRM2" descTag="@ClanSRM2_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanSRM2.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Missile" projectileclass="waypointrocket" numFiring="2" damage="2.0" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="5" impulse="0.11" heat="2" cooldown="2.0" ammoType="ClanSRMAmmo" ammoPerShot="2" minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" tons="0.5" duration="0.0" lifetime="15.0" speed="300" volleydelay="0.25" maxheight="0" radius="0.05" artemisAmmoType="ClanSRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size="0.005" formation_size_per_index="0.025" spread="5.0" />
 
 
 
  <Weapon id="1227" name="ClanSRM4" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM4,ClanSRM,ClanSRM4" faction="Clan">
	<Loc nameTag="@ClanSRM4" descTag="@ClanSRM4_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanSRM4.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Missile" projectileclass="waypointrocket" numFiring="4" damage="2.0" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.11" heatPenaltyID="7" heat="3" cooldown="3.0" ammoType="ClanSRMAmmo" ammoPerShot="4" minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" tons="1" duration="0.0" lifetime="15.0" speed="300" volleydelay="0.25" maxheight="0" radius="0.05" artemisAmmoType="ClanSRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size="0.005" formation_size_per_index="0.025" spread="5.4" />
 
 
  <Weapon id="1228" name="ClanSRM6" HardpointAliases="Missile,SRM,SRM6,ClanSRM,ClanSRM6" faction="Clan">
	<Loc nameTag="@ClanSRM6" descTag="@ClanSRM6_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanSRM6.dds" />
	<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="1" type="Missile" projectileclass="waypointrocket" numFiring="6" damage="2.0" heatdamage="0" heatpenalty="1.0" minheatpenaltylevel="4" impulse="0.11" heatPenaltyID="7" heat="4.0" cooldown="4.0" ammoType="ClanSRMAmmo" ammoPerShot="6" minRange="0" longRange="270.0" maxRange="270.0" tons="1.5" duration="0.0" lifetime="15.0" speed="300" volleydelay="0.25" radius="0.05" artemisAmmoType="ClanSRMAmmoArtemis" formation_size="0.005" formation_size_per_index="0.025" spread="5.9" />
 

For the lazy:

IS SRM2 - 4.8
IS SRM4 - 5.2
IS SRM6 - 5.7
CL SRM2 - 5.0
CL SRM4 - 5.4
CL SRM6 - 5.9

One correction, Artemis is 34% reduction

It makes a difference! (spread=66% with artemis)



Spread radius or diameter does seem the most likely answer to "Spread" since using it as an angle gives a ~29M CoF, while the Atlas is only ~18M, and it goes from head to almost knees(70% of the total surface?). So, lets say 12.6M.

cSRM6 at 5.9*2=11.8...so that is a possibility for radius.



It also begs the question...since it's spread at max range, does that mean range quirks extend that CoF (and possible the starting point of spread?)

I heard someone suggest that, and it kinda makes sense. Which means the MG might also be affected; having a maximum 1.5M CoF at maximum range?

That one you could probably test, if you got accurate measurements on the mechs. Say, find a 2*2M hitbox (catapult arms?) and see if you hit more than that. That would require importing the robots, then getting a proper scale object (I think I heard the Cryengine pilot was 2M tall...but I can't confirm that).

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 25 May 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

It's probably never gonna happen... ERPPC @ 12 heat is pretty significant.

Heck, 25% ERPPC velocity is a lot... for just one arm (even the Nova, Adder, and Warhawk gets 15% with 2 ERPPC quirked arm omnipods... let alone the mechs with the one-arm quirks like the Ice Ferret and Gargoyle). 15% ERPPC velocity would make better sense (but in all honesty, it's better if PPCs across the board were buffed in velocity).

Ironically, the buffs themselves (the LBX doesn't both me) are the kinds PGI would overbuff with and you would actually argue against (the overquirking)... and that's not exactly the way to go either...

it's less than the cooling the TDR-9S got, and can only mount 1, not 3. THAT is the biggest difference on some of these Quirks. Whether they can be boated or not. Heck the CDC gets a 50% velocity boost to it's ERPPC. BJ-3 gets 20% (and can pack 2 PPC) and VNDs are clocking 40%.....and can pack 2. TDR-9S still gets a 30% velocity boost.

Almond Brown, on 25 May 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

The Summoner has the exact same armor as any other 70t Mech in MWO. If we compare the quirks for the I.S. 70t Mechs to the Summoners, there is not some gross deficiency of Armor vs the other 70t tons Mechs currently in MWO. The Summoner, if Podded correctly can actually have "more total armor" than its I.S. Heavy counter-parts.

So what is this apparent lack of armor it needs that is spoken of. Or did I misread that when what it really means is, your wish is to retain the current level of "Fire Power", with whatever stripped down version of Armor you currently run on your Summoner(s), but would prefer to carry the maximum allowed amount of Armor, while retaining that same "Fire power" as well?

I really have no clue what you are trying to say or ask.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 May 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

it's less than the cooling the TDR-9S got, and can only mount 1, not 3. THAT is the biggest difference on some of these Quirks. Whether they can be boated or not. Heck the CDC gets a 50% velocity boost to it's ERPPC. BJ-3 gets 20% (and can pack 2 PPC) and VNDs are clocking 40%.....and can pack 2. TDR-9S still gets a 30% velocity boost.

To be fair, the Cicada-3C has only 1 real weapon... and it still sucks at firing it.

BJ-3 has 2 of them stock IIRC.

Vindicators... are still bad. 40% is the "oops, we screwed you in the arse" bonus.

Sadly, I don't bother fielding a Thunderbolt-9S (and not many others do, with the occasional exception when it is Boreal, but that's a totally niche option now).

I'm inclined to at least double the bonuses on that Summoner-Prime's PPC arm... the Summoner is just crazy mobile so I'm not exactly pushing for too many buffs for it.

By comparison, the Nova-A has a 15% total velocity boost, and a 6% ERPPC total heat reduction (which comes to a 14.1 heat ERPPC) and seems a bit meh... probably needs to be @ 8% (13.8 ERPPC heat, which is kinda where it should be @ with the IS ERPPC... but we can't have nice things).

Edited by Deathlike, 25 May 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[Lightfoot]

xe N on, on 25 May 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

The Stormcrow has efficiently 1.5 ton less space then the Summoner. Because the Summoner comes with 4 heatsink pre-installed in it engine. The Stormcrow comes with zero. 4 heatsinks is the minimum you want to put on a clan mech any. Aside from dual Gauss builds.

But nice try.

But anyhow, give the summoner a right arm 4 energy omnipod. Would allow nice brawler builds.

But heatsinks are optional and let's face it, only the first ten are actually double heatsinks. Most of my Stormcrows have no extra heatsinks, just the energy heavy builds. So nice try and you know the Summoner doesn't need those extra heatsinks it can't remove for almost any load out it can use. I guess they come in handy for 2xERPPC's, but they need to fix ERPPCs first. That hit-reg bug.

[IraqiWalker]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 May 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

My issue with that is two fold, TBH.

1) They are already leaning on Quirks way too dang hard. They need to hit Pause on Quirks, really reinvestigate what they hope to accomplish with them, and hit reset, with most mechs getting probably half their quirks removed, and many others changed to more logical and appropriate Quirks.

The other points I won't really argue against, since I agree with them in a general sense. However, I think that quirks were designed specifically for something like this. Make underperforming mechs, that are shafted by hardlocked equipment or something else, work in a comparable way. Who cares if the quirk gives the mech a 50% boost to it's LBX, if the end result is that it puts it at a near equal ground with it's competitors that are acknowledged as superior to it stock.

I don't care as much about how big the buff or nerf is. I care about the end result of the buff. If it drives the chassis into a point of being too strong, dial it down, or even change it for something else.

I think an impulse buff on the Summoner's JJs would be great. Extra torso, and arm movement quirks, coupled with some single hardpoint decent buffs, would make for a good flanker. It's no timberwolf, but it will be able to stand it's ground against one, instead of getting insta gibbed.

Repasy, on 25 May 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

The Summoner is hailed for being a highly mobile omnimech, with a powerful YET SIMPLE loadout. I'd say that the current Summoner in-game fits that description perfectly.

It will never outgun a Timber Wolf, but it can outmatch it in maneuverability. The Summoner is less about weapon superiority and more about using the terrain to your advantage. The Summoner pilot should always target enemies with low maneuverability, basically any mech at 70+ tons w/o jump jets. The Summoner's extra speed allows it to outrun any mech that can match tonnage with it.

Terrain use is EXTREMELY important! You have enough speed to keep a step ahead of enemy heavies, but that will do you no good if you walk into an open valley, or if you get cornered/flanked by several mechs. As such, you should always attempt to stay on the outside edge of engagements, keeping close to cliffs and/or valleys that you can duck into to avoid fire. It's also advisable to work with at least one other mech, such as a Kit Fox, Stormcrow, or Hellbringer. The ONLY time you should ever jump into the fray from the outside edge of battle is to quickly dispatch a crippled enemy, and when you do so you should always have an exit from combat, in case you need to make a tactical retreat from the area.

If you get swarmed by enemy lights, you're pretty much screwed, so don't ever let that happen. You might be able to deal with one or two mediums, depending on their speed/loadout, but again if they're faster than you you've just lost your main advantage.

Your loadout also affects play. If you bring a S-SRM6 or a Large Pulse Laser, you may be able to deal with lighter mechs more effectively. If you're dead set on brawling, then the SMN-C is your best bet. The SMN-D is your dedicated long-range variant, and you should always stick with your company to give AMS coverage. I've converted my SMN-B into a dedicated streakboat that I find highly effective in urban settings, or in steep terrain where lights can't make full use of their maneuverability.

TL;DR: It plays like the old dragon used to. Hit from the flanks, dance around the enemy team, and make sure they don't get the chance to return fire.

I love the MWO Summoner. It can be made so much better if PGI focuses on mobility, and nimbleness. Making the mech work the way it should be.

[Templar Dane]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

The other points I won't really argue against, since I agree with them in a general sense. However, I think that quirks were designed specifically for something like this. Make underperforming mechs, that are shafted by hardlocked equipment or something else, work in a comparable way. Who cares if the quirk gives the mech a 50% boost to it's LBX, if the end result is that it puts it at a near equal ground with it's competitors that are acknowledged as superior to it stock.

I don't care as much about how big the buff or nerf is. I care about the end result of the buff. If it drives the chassis into a point of being too strong, dial it down, or even change it for something else.

I think an impulse buff on the Summoner's JJs would be great. Extra torso, and arm movement quirks, coupled with some single hardpoint decent buffs, would make for a good flanker. It's no timberwolf, but it will be able to stand it's ground against one, instead of getting insta gibbed.



TL;DR: It plays like the old dragon used to. Hit from the flanks, dance around the enemy team, and make sure they don't get the chance to return fire.

I love the MWO Summoner. It can be made so much better if PGI focuses on mobility, and nimbleness. Making the mech work the way it should be.

The Cent D has awesome quirks for the LB10 and is still considered the worst Centurion.

The Prime's loadout in tabletop was dangerous. 15 point alpha from the ERPPC, with the LB10 and LRM15 for exploiting the holes made by the ERPPC.

Edited by lordtzar, 25 May 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

lordtzar, on 25 May 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

The Cent D has awesome quirks for the LB10 and is still considered the worst Centurion.

The Prime's loadout in tabletop was dangerous. 15 point alpha from the ERPPC, with the LB10 and LRM15 for exploiting the holes made by the ERPPC.

It helped that most mechs in TT didn't have max armor, and while the damage numbers were the same, armor and internal HP were half what we have.

ERPPC+LBX slug was a real nightmare to contend with. Especially if they hit the same spot. That's 25 points gone, before you could even blink. Not to mention that it could fire all weapons, and still dissipate the heat in one turn. The mech was heat neutral, which allowed it to dole punishment at long range with impunity.

[Bishop Steiner]

lordtzar, on 25 May 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

The Cent D has awesome quirks for the LB10 and is still considered the worst Centurion.

The Prime's loadout in tabletop was dangerous. 15 point alpha from the ERPPC, with the LB10 and LRM15 for exploiting the holes made by the ERPPC.

pretty much a matter of confirmation bias. It ain't the best Centy, but it's better than the AL and IMO, the AH (AH is nastier early in game, but usually out of ammo pretty fast, and can't catch a well piloted 9D). YLW and CN9-A are overall better, but the 9D, I always laugh at how people overlook it.

That said, without the "AutoShotty" Quirk, it would be bottom tier, as the LB-X is pretty substandard (C-LB-5X are the exception IMO) considering their mass to "effective" range issues.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 25 May 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

One correction, Artemis is 34% reduction

It makes a difference! (spread=66% with artemis)



Spread radius or diameter does seem the most likely answer to "Spread" since using it as an angle gives a ~29M CoF, while the Atlas is only ~18M, and it goes from head to almost knees(70% of the total surface?). So, lets say 12.6M.

cSRM6 at 5.9*2=11.8...so that is a possibility for radius.



It also begs the question...since it's spread at max range, does that mean range quirks extend that CoF (and possible the starting point of spread?)

I heard someone suggest that, and it kinda makes sense. Which means the MG might also be affected; having a maximum 1.5M CoF at maximum range?

That one you could probably test, if you got accurate measurements on the mechs. Say, find a 2*2M hitbox (catapult arms?) and see if you hit more than that. That would require importing the robots, then getting a proper scale object (I think I heard the Cryengine pilot was 2M tall...but I can't confirm that).

Having never looked into the XML files, I can't really confirm and probably shouldn't assume...

However I've always assumed (or at least perceived from usage) that Artemis also seems to help with tracking to a small extent.


I'm not sure how to explain it, obviously SRMs don't home like SSRMs do, but with artemis and without artemis has always felt like a very stark difference in terms of missiles hitting target and more than just what you'd expect from messy spread.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 25 May 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Having never looked into the XML files, I can't really confirm and probably shouldn't assume...

However I've always assumed (or at least perceived from usage) that Artemis also seems to help with tracking to a small extent.


I'm not sure how to explain it, obviously SRMs don't home like SSRMs do, but with artemis and without artemis has always felt like a very stark difference in terms of missiles hitting target and more than just what you'd expect from messy spread.

a 34% reduction in spread is a big deal, it really helps with SRMs. In TT, if they have Artemis, and a target has NARC, then the SRMs will home in on the target like streaks do.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 May 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

a 34% reduction in spread is a big deal, it really helps with SRMs. In TT, if they have Artemis, and a target has NARC, then the SRMs will home in on the target like streaks do.

Streak tracking on ASRMs would be nice, except if it used actual MWO Streak tracking (the bones/targeting method) and it would then outright suck.

[Ultimax]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

a 34% reduction in spread is a big deal, it really helps with SRMs. In TT, if they have Artemis, and a target has NARC, then the SRMs will home in on the target like streaks do.

What I'm saying is not just spread reduction, it's more like improved flight pathing towards targets.

It could be my imagination.

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 May 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

pretty much a matter of confirmation bias. It ain't the best Centy, but it's better than the AL and IMO, the AH (AH is nastier early in game, but usually out of ammo pretty fast, and can't catch a well piloted 9D). YLW and CN9-A are overall better, but the 9D, I always laugh at how people overlook it.

That said, without the "AutoShotty" Quirk, it would be bottom tier, as the LB-X is pretty substandard (C-LB-5X are the exception IMO) considering their mass to "effective" range issues.

I see a lot more AHs and ALs than As or Ds. Heck, I see more of the hero than the As or the Ds.

[Bishop Steiner]

lordtzar, on 25 May 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

I see a lot more AHs and ALs than As or Ds. Heck, I see more of the hero than the As or the Ds.

I haven't seen a CN9-AL in months. And yes, lot's of AHs. Quantity ain't the same as quality. It's easy to do semi decent with a Splat-Cent. Doesn't mean it's a great Mech. Just easy. I've been running Centurions since long before they got any respect, back in CB. I love the AH, fought for 2 years to get it back. It's nowhere near as potent as a YLW in good hands. And not as versatile as the others, but hey, believe what you want. The more people underestimate me, the more free kills I get.

[Templar Dane]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 May 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

I haven't seen a CN9-AL in months. And yes, lot's of AHs. Quantity ain't the same as quality. It's easy to do semi decent with a Splat-Cent. Doesn't mean it's a great Mech. Just easy. I've been running Centurions since long before they got any respect, back in CB. I love the AH, fought for 2 years to get it back. It's nowhere near as potent as a YLW in good hands. And not as versatile as the others, but hey, believe what you want. The more people underestimate me, the more free kills I get.

Sean Lang uses the AL, is probably the reason.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

IraqiWalker, on 25 May 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

In TT, if they have Artemis, and a target has NARC, then the SRMs will home in on the target like streaks do.

No they don't....since both require different types of ammo to get the bonus....all Artemis/NARC does is boost your missile hit roll, not make sure all of them hit.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 25 May 2015 - 08:52 PM.