147 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

clownwarlord, on 23 May 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

I did. But they gave it out anyways.

hehe... now those are the real j*rks.

[bad arcade kitty]

RavenKnight86, on 23 May 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

Also not participating in a game mode, such as your suicide all your Mechs when you get a CW match against a 12 man is also a violation of the ToS. Just pointing out your hypocrisy of which parts of the ToS you use and those you ignore.

my 'hypocrisity' is in that that your teammates shouldn't be betrayed regardless if they want to earn some more money by getting 1-2 kills which you don't get credit of or even if they want to save their (useless) statistics

enemies on the other side don't deserve any favor past fair play

[RavenKnight86]

No it's just you think if the game isn't going to be fun for you it's ok to ruin it for the other team and violate ToS by nonparticipation. Then you want to use ToS to justify your position on this.

Course you would probably be the guy shut down and hiding in the corner of the map.

[bad arcade kitty]

i suggested it because full premade vs pugs isn't a fair play and therefore pugs have no liability to play it

[monk]

Muting the dead from talking only gives incentive for players to not use the in game voice chat and move off to another solution instead. You can't penalize in game voice chat and make it more inferior than 3rd party solutions. Any move in that direction will only further damage the attempts to strengthen teamwork within the game to include pick up players and smaller, same-team groups.

As an aside, you can improve the in game usage by including things like icons in game to show who is talking (toggleable) to help identify teammates calling for aid, etc.

[bad arcade kitty]

i would suggest to mute /all chat for dead

[RavenKnight86]

But to get back on topic I see nothing wrong with reporting the position of the last guy if they are shut down or hiding. Players running around I'll usually give a minute or two to see if they are setting up their battlefield.

However I have no qualms reporting a hider. In fact during the Founders event I reported a team mates position for hiding and his reason was "I don't get to vote and Founders shouldn't either"

[martian]

Xetelian, on 23 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Don't do stupid things and the people on your team wont tell the enemy where you're shut down at.

So losers who died first did "right things", but I - still alive and fighting - am doing "stupid things".

And such dead losers are trying to teach me how to play "right".

LOL

MrMadguy, on 23 May 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

In most cases when I see, that this happens - it's due to some sneaky guy, being caring about his survival so much, that he was hiding somewhere during entire match, not contributing into our success even a little bit, which was an indirect cause of us being roflstomped by enemy team, because support of even one more 'Mech sometimes can be significant. In fact, he already was non-participating in core game mechanics, i.e. violating the rules of the game, right from the beginning of the match. And now you can see the situation: we were roflstomped partially due to his non-participation and at the end he is also trying to waste our time via hiding somewhere, trying to preserve his precious K/D and/or drag some more rewards for himself? I.e. riding on our backs? Lol. Of course we will report him. And that's why this situation is quite unfair. It's very hard for us to prove, that we have lost due to his non-participation, i.e. violation of game rules, but it's very easy for him to prove, that we violated game rules via reporting him. So, I think, that it's fair trade off: he has a right to non-participate - we have a right to report him. As simple as that.

Yes, you can report him to the Support, that's okay - but the Rules explicitly forbid you to tell his position to enemy team.

ScarecrowES, on 23 May 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

I think dead players should be able to talk. It's a bit silly that they can't. And if your reasoning for not wanting players to talk is because your own team is telling the enemy where you are... well... I hate hate hate players who intentionally drag out a game. You lost. Your team is dead, you're solo. You're getting the loss on your record. Making everyone else wait 6 more minutes to get out of the game is just you being a jerk. And intentionally avoiding combat is a ToS violation, btw.

Nobody is forcing you to watch him. Simply hit "Escape", then click "Quit Match" and that's all. Is it really so difficult?

When you clicked "Play", you knew that the game may last 15 minutes.

Ted Wayz, on 23 May 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I have a better idea. If you are the last man standing on your team and if you do not hit an enemy within one minute then you self destruct.

That's really "a better idea".

What do you think about the idea that moving into the right position often takes more than one minute? Maybe two minutes? And that when you are preparing an ambush you may wait even longer?

Ted Wayz, on 23 May 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

That way one tool cannot hold twenty-three people hostage.

Nobody is forcing you to watch him. Simply hit "Escape", then click "Quit Match" and that's all. Is it really so difficult?

Ursh, on 23 May 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

If you're the last guy that often, it means you're not playing aggressively enough. You're a scavenger light, not a striker light. Go shoot people or gtfo.

In most games people won't report you if you're actively looking for combat. When it's 11-4 though, and you've got pristine armor, people have remarkably little patience for your shoot and scoot tactics. It's rare to get your location reported if you're not being a tool.

Everyone should get to talk. Lots of timid opportunists live deep into the match, but they've got nothing to say because they can't create their own shots. They need someone to draw fire so they can unload unmolested. When they're the focus, they run, not comprehending how they were the problem for their team, rather than the team being a problem for them. Then the end of match screen comes up and 8 guys who died first did more damage than they did.

Fortunately, it's not your job to judge other players' tactics. Considering that you are dead already, you should think about your own tactics, why you died so early in the game ...

Dukat281, on 23 May 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

I'd say that there is an afk/disconnect/troll player in 90% of all battles. That means not moving at all since the beginning of the battle ot shut down in a hidden corner. I actually appreciate if these are getting reported to the enemy to end the battle without endless wait. And my impression is that this is widely appreciated by regular players. And I'd never complain about this or could imagine to be actually complained about.

Having dead players muted from the living audience is indeed considered a standard procedure since 2005, at least. But in case of MWO, the annoyance of afk/dc/troll players justifies the lack of this feature.

The Rules explicitly forbid you to do that. The Rules say it's "Team Treason".

Especially considering that disconnected player may reconnect in any moment ...

Flash Frame, on 23 May 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

no...not only dickheads do this.

I've seen games where the entire friendly team save for one single light mech, had died horribly, with the enemy team retaining 10+ members... only for that single, light mech, to run around like an idiot for the 10+ minutes remaining.

I'm sorry, at that point, you're just wasting everyone's time instead of giving the enemy the kill with dignity.

Nobody is forcing you to watch him. Simply hit "Escape", then click "Quit Match" and that's all. Is it really so difficult?

When you clicked "Play", you knew that the game may last 15 minutes.

Navid A1, on 23 May 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

How about telling them about your plan.

This way they know about your intention.

Is such obligation in the Rules? I don't think so.

RavenKnight86, on 23 May 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

But to get back on topic I see nothing wrong with reporting the position of the last guy if they are shut down or hiding. Players running around I'll usually give a minute or two to see if they are setting up their battlefield.

However I have no qualms reporting a hider. In fact during the Founders event I reported a team mates position for hiding and his reason was "I don't get to vote and Founders shouldn't either"

Thank you for telling us that you have no problems with commiting the team treason and boasting that you did so ...

Direct quote from MWO Rules of Conduit:

Team Treason
Treasonous provision of information to enemy combatants, also known as "bird-doging" is forbidden. This involves a player using the in-game chat to provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates. While we appreciate that some players may wish to have a round end early by calling out the location of an AFK team-mate, the risk that this could be used against an active participant of the match to deny them the use of cover and movement makes this a form of a griefing. You may declare a teammate AFK but not their coordinates or position.

[Rogue Jedi]

I have seen it but not often,

team treason (telling the enemy where a player is) is against the code of conduct
if someone reports your (or an active teammates) position screenshot it and report it with the screenshot and as much additional information as possible to support@mwomercs.com

non participation is against the code of conduct
if someone runs off to hide screenshot it (preferably multiple screenshots showing the player has not moved for a minute or more) and send a report explaining exactly what happened to support@mwomercs.com.

just because someone says "I am reporting you" does not mean they will do so, and besides if PGI receive multiple reports it is more likely they will have enough evidence to do something.

[RavenKnight86]

Let me break it down for you, Martian. If someone is breaking the ToS by not participating then I have no personal qualms with doing unto that person as they are doing to 23 others. I don't think someone who is frankly being a tool and hiding to drag out a game cause they are pissy will have much a leg to stand on for someone reporting their position.

[MrMadguy]

Read the TOS carefully:

Quote

Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means could be considered actionable.

I.e. you should join a match only with intention to actually play it the right way, according to the game mode's rules. You can't play "your own game" for "your own fun". You can't kill teammates, only because you're getting fun via doing it. You can't suicide for fun. You can't join match, only because you wanted to chat with other players, not actually play the game. You can't join the match only to walk around the map and go sightseeing.

And many players, Light pilots in most cases, are forgetting, that main rule of Skirmish mode - is to kill as many enemies, as you can. I.e. many players join the match only to play their own personal game - so called "game of survival". Let's call things their own names: they join the match with only one purpose - to troll as many players, as they can, via exploiting their invulnerability. Admit it. You are getting your own fun via trying to survive no matter what, even if other players are suffering due to your actions. So. You should know, that it's against the rules of the Skirmish mode, i.e. against the TOS. Skirmish is about killing - not about surviving. Wanna play "survival horror" - ask devs to implement special mode for you.

And. What is the difference between player, who plays his own "game of AFK" or "game of TK" - and you, playing your own "game of survival"? You are all disrupting gameplay of other players. So, would you report AFKer or TKer to other team? Yeah. That's why we reporting "survival squirrels" too.

[EvilCow]

They should introduce a "satellite scan", after N minutes of staying in the same area (100mt radius) you are spotted and your position transmitted (you appear on map).

Then get rid of dead people chat, they should be able only to talk to other spectators. I would miss dead people complaining how the team is so not worth their greatness however, those are always amusing.

[Skarlock]

XX Sulla XX, on 23 May 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

What about the dead can vote to end the match after a couple of minutes. I get so tired of people running for 10 minutes while taking no shots or 2 or 3 shots over that time. And when they have to kill 10 mechs to win.

This isn't a bad idea either. As long as there is a reasonable threshold (maybe more than half of all the dead players, minimum of 8 total dead players or something) I think this could work.

[bad arcade kitty]

Rogue Jedi, on 23 May 2015 - 10:38 PM, said:

I have seen it but not often,

team treason (telling the enemy where a player is) is against the code of conduct
if someone reports your (or an active teammates) position screenshot it and report it with the screenshot and as much additional information as possible to support@mwomercs.com

non participation is against the code of conduct
if someone runs off to hide screenshot it (preferably multiple screenshots showing the player has not moved for a minute or more) and send a report explaining exactly what happened to support@mwomercs.com.

just because someone says "I am reporting you" does not mean they will do so, and besides if PGI receive multiple reports it is more likely they will have enough evidence to do something.

this

if you think that hiding is against the rules report it but do not disclose their position

[martian]

RavenKnight86, on 23 May 2015 - 11:10 PM, said:

Let me break it down for you, Martian. If someone is breaking the ToS by not participating then I have no personal qualms with doing unto that person as they are doing to 23 others. I don't think someone who is frankly being a tool and hiding to drag out a game cause they are pissy will have much a leg to stand on for someone reporting their position.

If you think that some other player is violating the Rules, report him to the Support.

But your Team Treason is still against the rules. The Rules explicitly forbid it and I believe I quoted them once or twice ...

Is here something you still do not understand?

MrMadguy, on 23 May 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

Read the TOS carefully:

I.e. you should join a match only with intention to actually play it the right way, according to the game mode's rules. You can't play "your own game" for "your own fun". You can't kill teammates, only because you're getting fun via doing it. You can't suicide for fun. You can't join match, only because you wanted to chat with other players, not actually play the game. You can't join the match only to walk around the map and go sightseeing.

And many players, Light pilots in most cases, are forgetting, that main rule of Skirmish mode - is to kill as many enemies, as you can. I.e. many players join the match only to play their own personal game - so called "game of survival". Let's call things their own names: they join the match with only one purpose - to troll as many players, as they can, via exploiting their invulnerability. Admit it. You are getting your own fun via trying to survive no matter what, even if other players are suffering due to your actions. So. You should know, that it's against the rules of the Skirmish mode, i.e. against the TOS. Skirmish is about killing - not about surviving. Wanna play "survival horror" - ask devs to implement special mode for you.

You still don't get it.

Skirmish is about killing enemy 'Mechs, all right. But it's on every single player what tactics he chooses. Somebody charges the enemy team. Somebody brawls. Somebody brings LRMs. Somebody snipes with Gauss rifles. Somebody decided to ambush enemy 'Mechs. etc.

It is not your job to judge other players' tactics and report their position to the enemy team based on your whim ...

It's explicitly written in the Rules that "players can't provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates."

MrMadguy, on 23 May 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

And. What is the difference between player, who plays his own "game of AFK" or "game of TK" - and you, playing your own "game of survival"? You are all disrupting gameplay of other players. So, would you report AFKer or TKer to other team? Yeah. That's why we reporting "survival squirrels" too.

I wouldn't tell the enemy team the position of an AFK player because I am not a Team Traitor - as "some other people" in this thread ...

As for TKs, you report them to the Support too. That's what you should do. Read the rules that I quoted above.

[Ursh]

Surviving till the end often isn't an indication of great skill at being an effective MechWarrior, but rather great skill at avoiding enemy mechs. That's the kind of superior tactic martian seems to be okay with.

Sometimes I die with 80 damage, sometimes I die with 800+ damage. Either way, I play the game modes and work towards the victory conditions.

If you have some super special l33t dewdz tactic to run around the map, blast someone once with your six medium lasers, and then run around for another 2 minutes before you shoot someone else, you're an incredibly boring person and there's no help for you.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 23 May 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

You still don't get it.

Skirmish is about killing enemy 'Mechs, all right. But it's on every single player what tactics he chooses. Somebody charges the enemy team. Somebody brawls. Somebody brings LRMs. Somebody snipes with Gauss rifles. Somebody decided to ambush enemy 'Mechs. etc.

In most cases he doesn't have any chances to pick any enemy 'Mech, cuz enemies know at least his approximate position and are all going there, and he clearly realizes it. On the contrary - HE is being under pursuit and HE runs away and tries to hide. It just turns into endless NASCAR riding around the map, till some smart guy (usually it's me, if I'm still alive) won't decide to intercept him instead of pursuing. So it's not ever near "legitimate tactic" - it's just wasting time and disrupting other players' gameplay.

[bad arcade kitty]

MrMadguy, on 24 May 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

In most cases he doesn't have any chances to pick any enemy 'Mech, cuz enemies know at least his approximate position and are all going there, and he clearly realizes it. On the contrary - HE is being under pursuit and HE runs away and tries to hide. It just turns into endless NASCAR riding around the map, till some smart guy (usually it's me, if I'm still alive) won't decide to intercept him instead of pursuing. So it's not ever near "legitimate tactic" - it's just wasting time and disrupting other players' gameplay.

your estimation of their tactics isn't a justification for the team treason and violation of the rules

[martian]

Ursh, on 23 May 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Surviving till the end often isn't an indication of great skill at being an effective MechWarrior, but rather great skill at avoiding enemy mechs. That's the kind of superior tactic martian seems to be okay with.

Sometimes I die with 80 damage, sometimes I die with 800+ damage. Either way, I play the game modes and work towards the victory conditions.

If you have some super special l33t dewdz tactic to run around the map, blast someone once with your six medium lasers, and then run around for another 2 minutes before you shoot someone else, you're an incredibly boring person and there's no help for you.

And getting killed first is an indication of great skill at being an effective MechWarrior? Huh?

MrMadguy, on 24 May 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

In most cases he doesn't have any chances to pick any enemy 'Mech, cuz enemies know at least his approximate position and are all going there, and he clearly realizes it. On the contrary - HE is being under pursuit and HE runs away and tries to hide. It just turns into endless NASCAR riding around the map, till some smart guy (usually it's me, if I'm still alive) won't decide to intercept him instead of pursuing. So it's not ever near "legitimate tactic" - it's just wasting time and disrupting other players' gameplay.

It is not your job to judge other players' tactics and relay their position to the enemy team based on your whim ...

It's explicitly written in the Rules that "players can't provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates."

What exactly on the previous sentence - copied from the MWO Rules - is unclear?

Edited by martian, 24 May 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[MrMadguy]

martian, on 24 May 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

And getting killed first is an indication of great skill at being an effective MechWarrior? Huh?

Your idea that dead players should vote that the game ends for still living ones is ridiculous. If you are dead and you don't like the game, simply quit the match.


It is not your job to judge other players' tactics and relay their position to the enemy team based on your whim ...

It's explicitly written in the Rules that "players can't provide the enemy team with the locations of their own team mates."

What exactly on the previous sentence - copied from the MWO Rules - is unclear?

Currently I tolerate hiding and dragging time via non-participating, but if players won't be able to report violators, then I'll have to report every singe "survival squirrel" and "K/D carer" too.