231 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

On man where to start.



Load. of. crap.

IS laser vommit because lasers don't run out of ammo, and PPCs suck. Particularly in CW tossing a good mech because you have no ammo left isn't a good thing. Lights don't generally use balistics (specially IS lights), and heavier IS mechs pay a real penatly for using XLs (also required with a lot of heavy ballistic builds) The meta for CW isn't going to be very fluid unless they do something drastic with ammo counts or allow reloaded.

Same thing with the clans. I can run a dual UAC5 Bringer or dual UAC10 Timber out of 6 tons of ammo halfway through a 6 minute PUG game, so what would I do in CW when I need that mech online for 8 minutes?




Frankly, you don't understand a damn thing.

Cost really? The Single most expensive mech in my 141 mech stable is a Banshee, IS lights are (average) about 4 mil more than clan lights once built, mediums average around 13mil for me, the heavies are a bit cheaper....in the case of the Phracts.

Hell the Resistance package cost me over 40 mil to get into semi working condition.

And you fail to see the obvious as well...

CW is one section of this game, and it has the least amount of the playerbase using it, so using CW as the factor for balance is a rather dumb move. PGI isn't using CW as their balance point, if you can't see that....well...

Funny thing is, in CW drops, I see lots of ammo using weapons being used, both by the IS and the Clans, from PUGs to the top teams dropping as 12 mans. YOU may not be able to deal with ammo issues but it would seem you are a minority. Again, CW isn't the balance point for this game, you keep trying to make it out as that, but it's not. Otherwise we would have nerfs to Tbolts across the board after Tukayyid, but oddly, we didn't. Simple reason, outside of CW, you don't see TBolts as far as they eye can see. You DO see SCrows and Timbys in CW and outside of CW as far as the eye can see. Do try to keep that in mind, ok?

Cost, again, you fail to see the obvious. I know what it really costs to get 3 IS Mechs up to par, you know what it costs, but the NEW PLAYERS don't know that, they see the initial cost of the Mechs and THAT is the metric they go by. IS Lights are hands down cheaper than Clan Lights for initial purchase, you can get 3 of them for 1 Clan, so what's the new player going to do? Buy those IS Lights. Yes, he'll end up spending AS MUCH as he would have for Clan Lights, but he doesn't know that at first, and by the time he finds out, well, he's stuck with 3 IS Mechs and no cbills to buy any Clan Mechs.

Basics, you miss them like firing at a Kit Fox with a small laser at 1000m. Your bias is also clear as well. Some of us want something very different than you think we do, we're NOT out to nerf the Clans, we're trying to make sure they aren't SO OP that they totally screw the balance and FORCE across the board nerfs that kill the Clans. Constantly denying that there is any problem is not helping, it's making the situation WORSE, so stop hurting the Clans and start helping by admitting the issues and coming up with solid solutions that do NOT cripple the Clans.

Or you can keep screaming that the rest of us are just whiny no skill babies who haven't got a clue and want anything that beats us nerfed into the ground, as you have been doing all along, which simply shows that the problems are even worse than we portray them in our efforts to get things balanced so the Clans don't get CharlieFranked to oblivion.

Funny, some of the top Clan players are the ones saying that these changes are needed, and we've got the standard 'dont nerfz ma Clanz' screamers calling them no skilled IS whiners....I mean...wow.

[Yokaiko]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

And you fail to see the obvious as well...

CW is one section of this game, and it has the least amount of the playerbase using it, so using CW as the factor for balance is a rather dumb move. PGI isn't using CW as their balance point, if you can't see that....well...

Funny thing is, in CW drops, I see lots of ammo using weapons being used, both by the IS and the Clans, from PUGs to the top teams dropping as 12 mans. YOU may not be able to deal with ammo issues but it would seem you are a minority. Again, CW isn't the balance point for this game, you keep trying to make it out as that, but it's not. Otherwise we would have nerfs to Tbolts across the board after Tukayyid, but oddly, we didn't. Simple reason, outside of CW, you don't see TBolts as far as they eye can see. You DO see SCrows and Timbys in CW and outside of CW as far as the eye can see. Do try to keep that in mind, ok?

Cost, again, you fail to see the obvious. I know what it really costs to get 3 IS Mechs up to par, you know what it costs, but the NEW PLAYERS don't know that, they see the initial cost of the Mechs and THAT is the metric they go by. IS Lights are hands down cheaper than Clan Lights for initial purchase, you can get 3 of them for 1 Clan, so what's the new player going to do? Buy those IS Lights. Yes, he'll end up spending AS MUCH as he would have for Clan Lights, but he doesn't know that at first, and by the time he finds out, well, he's stuck with 3 IS Mechs and no cbills to buy any Clan Mechs.

Basics, you miss them like firing at a Kit Fox with a small laser at 1000m. Your bias is also clear as well. Some of us want something very different than you think we do, we're NOT out to nerf the Clans, we're trying to make sure they aren't SO OP that they totally screw the balance and FORCE across the board nerfs that kill the Clans. Constantly denying that there is any problem is not helping, it's making the situation WORSE, so stop hurting the Clans and start helping by admitting the issues and coming up with solid solutions that do NOT cripple the Clans.

Or you can keep screaming that the rest of us are just whiny no skill babies who haven't got a clue and want anything that beats us nerfed into the ground, as you have been doing all along, which simply shows that the problems are even worse than we portray them in our efforts to get things balanced so the Clans don't get CharlieFranked to oblivion.

Funny, some of the top Clan players are the ones saying that these changes are needed, and we've got the standard 'dont nerfz ma Clanz' screamers calling them no skilled IS whiners....I mean...wow.

I hadn't even touched a clan mech in 6 weeks until the event this weekend, and I owned every. singe. one.
....because I don't like the vast majority of them

I hate the nerf (again) because its stupid, again


Has an pair of -18% laser nerfs to it.

As such I haven't bothered with my ZOMGODTIER Timberwolves ....even over the clan event, because its SO GOOD that I couldn't be bothered buy the pods to fix my builds....ONE of which was a laser vomit, that I never dropped/.


No matter how big of a wall of text you write, PGI's "Balancing" is arbitrary, and driven by knee jerk.

[FupDup]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

I hadn't even touched a clan mech in 6 weeks until the event this weekend, and I owned every. singe. one.
....because I don't like the vast majority of them

I hate the nerf (again) because its stupid, again


Has an pair of -18% laser nerfs to it.

As such I haven't bothered with my ZOMGODTIER Timberwolves ....even over the clan event, because its SO GOOD that I couldn't be bothered buy the pods to fix my builds....ONE of which was a laser vomit, that I never dropped/.


No matter how big of a wall of text you write, PGI's "Balancing" is arbitrary, and driven by knee jerk.

While I don't really like the huge laser quirk nerfs, you can use a different CT (Prime or Alt S) and RT (Alt D) to reduce your laser quirks for that pictured build.

[Yokaiko]

FupDup, on 27 May 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

While I don't really like the huge laser quirk nerfs, you can use a different CT (Prime or Alt S) and RT (Alt D) to reduce your laser quirks for that pictured build.

I know exactly what I need to do to get down to 6% I don't use the mech enough to do it.

[Kristov Kerensky]

FupDup, on 27 May 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

While I don't really like the huge laser quirk nerfs, you can use a different CT (Prime or Alt S) and RT (Alt D) to reduce your laser quirks for that pictured build.

shhhhh, don't try to confuse him with logic...

Yokaiko, we want the laser nerfs REMOVED totally and replaced by the agility changes. You should READ the posts, not just automatically assume things, you just might not come off looking bad if you do that....

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 27 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

If laser vomit is intended to be reigned in then how would you propose stock loadouts not be nerfed if they're essentially laser vomit?

Via special code (i.e. exceptions to the rule). Yeah, I know. It's too much to ask of PGI. But, players should really not be severely penalized for going stock.

[Khobai]

One of the main problems is the stormcrow's torso yaw of 130 degrees... thats way too high. It should be 100 degrees (same as a centurion).

The kitfox's torso yaw is only 120 degrees... shouldnt a kitfox be able to torso twist more than a stormcrow?

Lowering the torso yaw of the stormcrow from 130 to 100 would resolve the agility issue.

Also maybe give one of the non-energy side torsos a +10% max torso yaw quirk, so you could increase the torso yaw to 110 by using something other than lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2015 - 12:19 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

shhhhh, don't try to confuse him with logic...

Gee dippy, like I said, now I have to rearrage 12 omni-pods, and you can't just swap between mechs, you have to buy a replacement to save it, and basically throw away that CT, because it isn't good for anything essentially.

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 May 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Yokaiko, we want the laser nerfs REMOVED totally and replaced by the agility changes. You should READ the posts, not just automatically assume things, you just might not come off looking bad if you do that....

Yeah NERF NERF NERF.

Been hearing it for years now, insert your next wall of text please.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Yeah NERF NERF NERF.

Been hearing it for years now, insert your next wall of text please.

I wasn't going to say anything, but this makes it clear you actually aren't paying attention.

Once more, the people you're arguing against want the laser nerfs removed. It was a wrong, bad solution to the issue, and it should go away. I'm starting to debate whether or not the Wolf even needs any debuffs at all, but I've always maintained that if it needs any they should be

• small
  
• few
  
• applicable to all roles the 'mech can play, not just one weapon or one type of function

I.e. minor agility debuffs like a -2.5% twist speed or -2.5% turn rate.

The Crow similarly should absolutely not have had laser nerfs slapped on it. It should have had its torso twist range and possibly torso twist speed reduced, and I'd like to see the hitboxes reworked so that it doesn't have nigh-perfect twist soak, but I'd also like to see buffs on things like, say, the Summoner. Or the Adder.

You keep acting like it's a 'crab mentality' you're arguing against, and it's not.

[Khobai]

Quote

The Crow similarly should absolutely not have had laser nerfs slapped on it

I agree. Its clan lasers themselves that shouldve been nerfed. Not the mechs that use them the best.

[Yokaiko]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 27 May 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

I wasn't going to say anything, but this makes it clear you actually aren't paying attention.

Once more, the people you're arguing against want the laser nerfs removed. It was a wrong, bad solution to the issue, and it should go away. I'm starting to debate whether or not the Wolf even needs any debuffs at all, but I've always maintained that if it needs any they should be

• small
  
• few
  
• applicable to all roles the 'mech can play, not just one weapon or one type of function

I.e. minor agility debuffs like a -2.5% twist speed or -2.5% turn rate.

The Crow similarly should absolutely not have had laser nerfs slapped on it. It should have had its torso twist range and possibly torso twist speed reduced, and I'd like to see the hitboxes reworked so that it doesn't have nigh-perfect twist soak, but I'd also like to see buffs on things like, say, the Summoner. Or the Adder.

You keep acting like it's a 'crab mentality' you're arguing against, and it's not.

I'm not listening because its pointless.

When was the last time PGI walked back a nerf? Hell Gauss still have three internal hit points instead of 10 like everything else because of GAUSSCATS!

In the end, its still NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF, like every other damn thread on the front page.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Khobai, on 27 May 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

I agree. Its clan lasers themselves that shouldve been nerfed. Not the mechs that use them the best.

I actually disagree with this, Khobai.

As things currently stand, the balance between the weapons technology is close enough that we should be looking more at evening the 'mechs out amongst their own technology bases for the moment. Both sides have extreme outliers in positive and negative respects that should be brought closer to the midline within their faction, and then, once the 'mechs are reasonably comparable within their cohort, the overall weapons tech should be adjusted to bring the two factions better in line with one another- should it still prove necessary at that point.

[Yokaiko]

Khobai, on 27 May 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

I agree. Its clan lasers themselves that shouldve been nerfed. Not the mechs that use them the best.

Which hammers the already crappy clan mechs even worse.

Nerf the lasers and what do you do with the rest of them? Nova doesn't have a missile option, Gargles sucks even worse (prime arms....hello) Warhawk doesn't have the space or weight to take a heavy ballistic loadout and ammo, and they have been screaming to nerf ballistic whales forever.

Notice a patter here?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

When was the last time PGI walked back a nerf? Hell Gauss still have three internal hit points instead of 10 like everything else because of GAUSSCATS!

Gauss have five hit points. Can you corroborate that this is because of gaussapults, or are you just drawing a conclusion without providing support?


In a more general sense, if you think it's pointless, why are you even bothering?

[Khobai]

Quote

Which hammers the already crappy clan mechs even worse.

So give them quirks to offset the nerfs. Either that or nerf the stormcrow/timberwolf in the proper way (agility decreases) Pretty simple really.

Quote

Nerf the lasers and what do you do with the rest of them?

Well obviously the non-laser weapons need a huge buff too. Nerfing lasers isnt the whole plan.

The goal should be to bring all three weapon types into parity with eachother. Nerfing lasers and buffing everything else should theoretically achieve that.

Why else do clan lasers need to be nerfed? Because look at the absurd quirks IS mechs are getting to compete with clan lasers! By nerfing clan lasers it means IS mechs dont need such ridiculous quirks to compete.

Clan lasers being overpowered is what got us into this whole quirk mess to begin with.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 27 May 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Gauss have five hit points. Can you corroborate that this is because of gaussapults, or are you just drawing a conclusion without providing support?


In a more general sense, if you think it's pointless, why are you even bothering?

Go see if you can find the forum posts, it was back when there were only 8 mechs in the game and GAUSSCAT OP ruled the day.

Oh yeah, the K2 STILL has restricted torso twist becuase of it, it was the same as the rest

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Go see if you can find the forum posts, it was back when there were only 8 mechs in the game and GAUSSCAT OP ruled the day.

Oh yeah, the K2 STILL has restricted torso twist becuase of it, it was the same as the rest

If you can't be bothered to go dig up the info to support your own argument, I sure as heck ain't gonna do it for you.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Gee dippy, like I said, now I have to rearrage 12 omni-pods, and you can't just swap between mechs, you have to buy a replacement to save it, and basically throw away that CT, because it isn't good for anything essentially.




Yeah NERF NERF NERF.

Been hearing it for years now, insert your next wall of text please.

You don't Clan much do you? I owned all the Clan Mechs myself, sold all but my (I) models and a couple of Hellbringers, and I have ALL the OmniPods off every single non-(I) Clan Mech I sold. Little secret, you can REMOVE the Omnipods and use them on another Variant CT, as you can strip every Pod but the CT and SAVE the Mech.

The Clan lasers don't need a nerf, they need ALL the current nerfs, both generic and Omnipod specific removed. SCrow and Timby need agility hits, lower the twist range, lower the twist speed, lower the accel/decel and turn rates, that's ALL. Put the weapons, ALL of the Clan weapons, back where they started out when they were added almost a year ago now.

YOU aren't reading what's being posted, YOU are simply doing what you do, bashing PGI and complaining about nerfs. You might be a little more less annoying if you at LEAST made sense once in a while.

[Yokaiko]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 27 May 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

If you can't be bothered to go dig up the info to support your own argument, I sure as heck ain't gonna do it for you.

Tough noodles

You WILL however note that is ONLY item here : http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment with reduced hitpoints, and it wasn't always like that.

Same with the K2

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Tough noodles

....some kinda echo in here.