96 replies to this topic

[Clementine]

The sad part about this is that Disconnecting or Fighting for 5 minutes and being spawn camped the other 5 is that at this point it's a distinction without a difference. One just realized it was a waste of time before the other.

I love MechWarrior..I really do...However, without a proper match making system.. these are just farming events plain and simple and the rest of the discussion about it is just how to farm back.

[Tywren]

Mirkk Defwode, on 29 May 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

You're correct, the point still stands. Part of this is outside my expertise but I can cite a few examples as I've seen them from either MMOFPs or large scale FPS titles. Beyond Warthunder or WoT which have a tiered exclusion system for content they don't really have restrictions immediately.

Battlefield used a gating system for getting access to classes beyond rifleman inside their level ups associated with the accounts for Battlefield 3 and 4

And this is the reason i stopped playing Battlefield at BC2, this kind of gating BS literaly drove me away from the franchise.

Quote

Planetside gated users away from mechanized combat by having to unlock the vehicle tokens through combat experience and level up system.

You mean unlocking vehicles with certs? i really wouldn't call that gating, anymore than spending GXP to unlock advanst zoom, or cap accelerator in this game. And even if you do count that as gating, it's a far cry from locking people out of entire maps, and game modes. Going back to Battlefield, it would be like saying you can't play the Rush game mode until you've won 100 games of conquest.

I can't speak to the other game you've mentioned, because i've never played them.

sycocys, on 29 May 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

Also I don't recall deleting anything about your skill level, so I'll restate what I believe I said.

True enough, i was having issues geting the site to load properly at the time, and i must have missed it. So i only thought you'd deleated it.

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I am starting to get a picture of where you (Tyrwren) are at on the elo scale. You will begin to understand why gating is a good thing once you start becoming a better player.

And since you also seem to be short on comprehension skills - I believe with the information you have been posting about your experience with this game that you are on the low end of the elo/skill side of the game and should start improving your skill at this game. - just so there's no misunderstanding to what I am stating.

Most of my CW matches last week i manage a match score between 180, and 240 depending on the map, and group; with the occasional good match where i passed 300. All in all i'd guess that would make me an average skill level; not carrying harder, but also not being carried.

Quote

You are however very good at doing multiple quote posts in an attempt to make yourself appear smarter than you actually are! Well Done. +1 forum troll skill.

It has nothing to do with making myself look smart, or trolling. It's just to make things clear as to which part of a statement i'm addressing, and to keep everything in context.

Quote

It may happen naturally with the elo system over hundreds or thousands of games, but if you don't actually have any indicators (like getting smoked in CW and having 11 other players vastly out perform you) that you are not a very good player the elo system is designed to put you in favorable conditions to keep you from realizing that you are not a very good player.

Its a good system for generating revenue from players that aren't (or aren't yet) very good at this game, not very good at helping players to get better at the game itself.

As it's set up now, i can maybe see that. but all it would take if for PGI to impliment a way for players to see their Elo rank, and that all changes. Just seeing that they're in the 69th percentile would drive many to play better just to reach 70.

Edited by Tywren, 29 May 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[CainenEX]

That seems pretty normal for a score board.
You fought against 228, they are indeed one hell of a coordinated unit that has been playing the game since beta. Even 12 mans happen to get into these scores, and that is normal. Part of the game.

Also if its just me but the uncoordiated pug does not help. I'd like to advise you that if you want to play CW, ether join a unit or get a regular group of people together. Otherwise without coordination, you will get rolled (and possible stuck with people that dc often).

Anyways my unit is recruiting till June 30th, so if interested just message me or look around the faction forums for a solid unit to join.

[BearFlag]

Just in case, and for the record, I don't blame 228 or groups for the problem(s). The problems are far larger than group vs. pug.

Certainly, better balancing in the match ups would help. But that is only the first of many CW problems that needs to be fixed.

The camping problem has been talked about in many threads with lots of good ideas. From memory some of them are...

1) Variable OOB overlays. That is, the two sides would have different OOB maps allowing for protected drop zones.
2) Alternate, possibly even selectable, drop points.
3) Abort mission/abort drop when the game is obviously lost (end it quick, move on to the next match).
4) Wait for full dropship. Fill a dropship and drop on the least molested pad.

[Gagis]

BearFlag, on 29 May 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

3) Abort mission/abort drop when the game is obviously lost (end it quick, move on to the next match).

Nice idea. Being able to concede matches to save time is an excellent feature in many games. Playing a game to its obvious conclusion is generally boring, and can often be restrictively time-consuming.

It would have to be something like a vote where all 12 players will have to agree, but its fine even if it would only rarely ever get used.

[ztac]

CW is the place units go for easy matches..... It is highly exploitable and there is no Matchmaker , but then even in the normal queue you would be forgiven for thinking that a matchmaker does not exist!

But then this is PGI all over with people at the top that have consistently make very bad decisions , implemented bad balance and game mechanics. This has been present since day one, the reason's why this has happened and is still happening you may speculate on , But most of us know the answer!

Anyone that thinks voip is the great equaliser is mistaken. Players that play together a lot have a certain amount of cohesion, Then we have mech choice and loadout , this is not random in any unit that wishes to be competitive, they will have the same builds and a drop order, tactics that have been proven to work... etc. etc.

PUGS even with voip will generally not work together (always have people that know best or better!). PUGS will not have a certain build or drop order.

CW itself is the ideal platform for anyone new to the game due to the ability to add mechbays to your account, it is not as people suggest endgame! And for new people it puts the game in a very dim light!

[Lyoto Machida]

sycocys, on 28 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

People SHOULDN'T be able to play CW without a gate to cross, and that will likely be added down the road - (un)fortunately for everyone this is their idea to beta it out so everyone gets a chance to try it out.

Also EVERYONE has access to voip, lfg, faction chat directly in the game - there is absolutely no reason other than player failure (and the very occasional hardware limitations concerning voip use) that these things are not being used to improve the game play. If you want to ignore all this stuff and cry about how unfair it is the other team is on their comms...... sorry, that's just not a use-able excuse anymore now that you have comms built in.

Long story short - turning on voip = turning every drop into a 12 man organized group. Listen to whoever takes command or take command yourself.

Not sure if you're aware but a 12 man that practices all the time on their own TS is still at an advantage over a random pug group, even one using the in-game VOIP...most of the time, anyways.

Familiarity with each other, complementary loadouts, set tactics, etc.

But you already knew this...

[CyclonerM]

Sthtopokeon, on 29 May 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

Please do the math for yourself: Take all the Units, divide them by the number of factions and by the number of timezones.
Do you still have enough to fill CW?

If not, I highly suggest you let the Pugs into your esteemed treehouse.

How do you attract them?
I don't know. I leave that up to PGI, but I do know that you will not attract Pugs by letting trained and coordinated 12-man groups beat them up again and again. This ain't really fun for either party, you know?

I know and already suggested lots of things that would make CW more interesting (at least for me).

Anyway, you are right, we need pugs in CW to fill in teams, this is why i say there cannot be different queques.

We are not stopping pugs from joining the treehouse, it is pugs who leave it by purpose disconnecting and not playing as a team.

sdsnowbum, on 29 May 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Instead of attracting people to factions that need more folks, I am for capping factions that don't necessarily need the 'help'.

Perhaps offer less contract options if a faction is already highly populated, only leave permament contract as an option for true blue loyalists, but leave the other contract options un-selectable until the faction population goes down.

Basically dynamically disable a few of the buttons on a few of the factions for the current faction selection UI. Then if you change factions again 2 weeks later those same options might be enabled again.

I have already suggested something like that, and i like the concept. Maybe not something as harsh as a cap, but for sure we need dynamic contract rewards. PGI already changes them from time to time, but this needs to be an automatic system tied to contracts; since , apparently, 5k more c-bills a match can make whole units switch factions, finally merc units might actually be a balancing factor, as intended, instead of a source of imbalance.

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

This isn't an MMO, there is not a "raid type mode" here; this game is an FPS. Name me one FPS that gates palyers from droping on any map they want, any time they want, in any game mode they want.

WoT , the closest comparable F2P game, as far as i remember lets only players in a unit fight in the territorial control mode. Just saying..

ztac, on 30 May 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

Anyone that thinks voip is the great equaliser is mistaken. Players that play together a lot have a certain amount of cohesion, Then we have mech choice and loadout , this is not random in any unit that wishes to be competitive, they will have the same builds and a drop order, tactics that have been proven to work... etc. etc.

PUGS even with voip will generally not work together (always have people that know best or better!). PUGS will not have a certain build or drop order.

Lyoto Machida, on 30 May 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

Not sure if you're aware but a 12 man that practices all the time on their own TS is still at an advantage over a random pug group, even one using the in-game VOIP...most of the time, anyways.
Familiarity with each other, complementary loadouts, set tactics, etc.

This is all true, but why would you punish teamplay? Why would you punish people who play togheter in a team game? This is not CoD. What makes more sense: " pugs should try to play better and coordinate with each other, following a leader, use VOIP, basically play as a team" or "unit players should NOT use Teamspeak, everyone should go on his own ramboing for kills, pushing alone, disconnecting when his team is losing" ?

By the way, it is not as if we always drop with the very same people every day. I am in a 270+ members unit and while i get to drop often for training or CW with my Star mates, most often our teams are comprised of members from different units and sub-units, which is not like being in a pug team, but is not quite the same as playing with the same 11 people every night

[Mirkk Defwode]

sycocys, on 29 May 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

And since you also seem to be short on comprehension skills - I believe with the information you have been posting about your experience with this game that you are on the low end of the elo/skill side of the game and should start improving your skill at this game. - just so there's no misunderstanding to what I am stating. You are however very good at doing multiple quote posts in an attempt to make yourself appear smarter than you actually are! Well Done. +1 forum troll skill.

It may happen naturally with the elo system over hundreds or thousands of games, but if you don't actually have any indicators (like getting smoked in CW and having 11 other players vastly out perform you) that you are not a very good player the elo system is designed to put you in favorable conditions to keep you from realizing that you are not a very good player.

No need for insults, one way or the other.

But ELO systems are best worked when the skill tier you're in is displayed to the user so they recognize where they are comparable to the whole population. This can be done pretty well in tiered systems.

Kay Wolf, on 29 May 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

No, the way to fix this terminally underpopulated game mode -CW- is to build the game the way it was meant to be built in the first place, with objective-based warfare, with a means of gauging individual 'Mechs and the overall value of the pilot in that 'Mech -HINT: Elo does NOT do that, right now-, and then running one hell of a smash-bang marketing campaign to get back the veteran's of this game. And it needs to be done BEFORE this game goes to Steam, so there's a way to keep absolute utter stupidity and chaos from ensuing within, and chasing off EVERYONE else who was not just here, in the first place, to play the game a little bit, and then go do something else. Steam will be a nice little revenue boost... for a little while... until this game is just one of the many dozens to hundreds of games gathering virtual dust on Steam's virtual shelves. Once this game hits Steam, I give it six months before everyone who has ever wanted to try this game is done with it, and then all of us are up a crick without a paddle.

No, if PGI wants this game to survive beyond my predicted six month time table after joining Steam, it has to go entirely the opposite direction. I am so very sick and tired of games being cornered into molds because the "large population" cries and whines and ******* and moans and complains until something is done. That ALWAYS, INEVITABLY, leads to the finality of the game, PERIOD. This time, PGI has to get its balls back, secure them safely back in their pants, and develop the game for the veterans and the hardcore crowd so that, when the stupid-ass Steam crowd goes away, the game can still survive.


Of course, will any of that be heard? No. Russ and the gang will not listen to people who actually have common sense and would pay -now that I have an amazingly well-paying job- gobs of money to play the game we paid for, initially, anyway.


I laid out a plan along this line two years ago, where all units would have a cap of so many people and, until the cap was met across the board, that cap couldn't raised to the next level, and so on...

I heartily disagree with this, actually. PGI needs to completely develop BattleTech-based contract options from Mercs Handbook and MH: 3055, and make those contracts actually worth something, rather than a unit pledging itself wholesale to ONE liege lord, they could take diverse contracts, as long as they weren't fighting themselves. Leave the weak "Company Store" contracts for the smaller units and force them to recruit more folks before they can move up to bigger and better.

Another thing I'm really tired of is dumbing down a game that should never have to be dumbed down. If someone's not intelligent enough to play a contracting and/or logistics portion to the game, they still have a place as a MechWarrior, right? (shrug) Why do I want to allow window lickers to run a unit in this game, when their entire purpose in life should be to fight for any other person who can actually fill the role of commander in this game?

Elitist? Maybe. True? Definitely.

I agree we could use some more though behind the contracts system as well as just having something that gives you a reason to care about your faction in general. We don't really have a good reason right now and thus factions don't matter to anyone who isn't familiar with the fiction and had a preset faction long before this game ever started.

Tywren, on 29 May 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

...
You mean unlocking vehicles with certs? i really wouldn't call that gating, anymore than spending GXP to unlock advanst zoom, or cap accelerator in this game. And even if you do count that as gating, it's a far cry from locking people out of entire maps, and game modes. Going back to Battlefield, it would be like saying you can't play the Rush game mode until you've won 100 games of conquest.

....

I can point at gating systems that exist in almost every gaming system. They're used as a means of ensuring people learn what they need to know prior to advancing to the next skillset/tier/area. It's a good methodology the issue you're contending with is whether to make those gates simple and low hanging or to make them difficult to overcome.

When CW was launched people suggested that you should only play if you have 4 Mastered mechs, fully decked out in Modules to get the best performance. I disagreed, there is a skill gap there but that comes just as much from playing in the public queue and the fact the gameplay is so different. A lot of those differences boil down to the environment and what people are exposed to.

[_Comrade_]

Clan jade falcon is just great among the clans

thats why their are 3 discos

[madhermit]

Reason why almost nobody plays CW even if they wanted to. Also dropping in 11 man group is the way to make it possible to stomp/camp your opposition which consists of randoms and solo players.

PGI can punish the quitters if they want but it won't fix ANYTHING. Only thing that might happen is that there'd be even less players that play CW.

Issue stems primarily from the spawncamping and being stomped. Fixing it would go a long way in making CW a bit more popular. I know I would play it if half of the games weren't spawncamps and stomps.

And no. "HERP DERP JOIN A UNIT" is not an argument here. There are various reasons people don't want to join a unit. There are two fixes to this mode:

1. Restrict to units. Only group queue is allowed. No one without group would be able to queue. The fact this doesn't exist proves for now that PGI doesn't want CW to be a thing only for groups. Considering the size of the map and number of planets this would be sheer lunacy.

2. Fix the matching. Or in this case rather add it since there currently is nothing you could call "matching". This can vary from designating a single planet on CW map for solo players where matchmaking occurs to global CW map wide matchmaking where you apply more specific matchmaking to every CW game.

My hypothesis is that there simply are not enough players to make matchmaking work so this might already be unreachable. In this case CW has already reached point of no return and is dead to solo players and players who play in small groups. There will of course be small portion of masochistic people who either enjoy or don't care about being stomped/camped and thus will continue to play CW. Also tiny portion will play it occasionally because it's simply different from normal games.

Edited by madhermit, 30 May 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Deadfire]

Clementine, on 29 May 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

LOL no they are not wtf?

Feel free to challenge your opinion on that anytime. However judging by the fact I have not seen or known of you, I can only assume it would be a waste of time for both of our units.

As for this topic, our competitve players, for the most part, don't play much CW at all. It's just not seen as competitive, useful practice, and a waste of time. Where the public or even the solo queue gives us more for our spare time, they do jump in when there are events, and some find it gives them more xp the level their mechs with. Farming as we are accused of is false, most high ELO matches are short and can most times make more per hour and effort. Finally sometimes they tag along with our casual players (yes we have those), but most times for a short time only due to what I said above.

Bottom line here is most times you are really just facing a 12 man of players at the same skill level as yourselves, that really only have Teamspeak above random pugs. Even that most nights is filled with only about 20% chatter relating to what is happening in game. If you play it out instead of disconnecting you would see this, and surprise we can lose as we have many times. Even if you lose you can still learn something new and become a more seasoned pilot with that knowledge.

[KuroNyra]

Deadfire, on 30 May 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

Feel free to challenge your opinion on that anytime. However judging by the fact I have not seen or known of you, I can only assume it would be a waste of time for both of our units.

As for this topic, our competitve players, for the most part, don't play much CW at all. It's just not seen as competitive, useful practice, and a waste of time. Where the public or even the solo queue gives us more for our spare time, they do jump in when there are events, and some find it gives them more xp the level their mechs with. Farming as we are accused of is false, most high ELO matches are short and can most times make more per hour and effort. Finally sometimes they tag along with our casual players (yes we have those), but most times for a short time only due to what I said above.

Bottom line here is most times you are really just facing a 12 man of players at the same skill level as yourselves, that really only have Teamspeak above random pugs. Even that most nights is filled with only about 20% chatter relating to what is happening in game. If you play it out instead of disconnecting you would see this, and surprise we can lose as we have many times. Even if you lose you can still learn something new and become a more seasoned pilot with that knowledge.

And what about spawn camping? It is not the first time 228th have been know for this, I have personatly being killed that way multiple times by some of the biggest units, including the LORDS... Or the 228th.

You guys are good, but there is also some behavior you should take a look at. To be good at this game is something. To not being a **** is another.

Heck, I've already saw guys who had the possibility to spawn camp just waiting the guys for dropping and creating a 1 vs 1 battle, where the guy can actually defend himself and get some point for destroying component or mechs. And that is more fun than being rekted the instant you land.

Edited by KuroNyra, 31 May 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[Shredhead]

KuroNyra, on 31 May 2015 - 02:14 AM, said:

And what about spawn camping? It is not the first time 228th have been know for this, I have personatly being killed that way multiple times by some of the biggest units, including the LORDS... Or the 228th.

You guys are good, but there is also some behavior you should take a look at. To be good at this game is something. To not being a **** is another.

Heck, I've already saw guys who had the possibility to spawn camp just waiting the guys for dropping and creating a 1 vs 1 battle, where the guy can actually defend himself and get some point for destroying component or mechs. And that is more fun than being rekted the instant you land.

First off, if you had followed the thread you'd know that there was no spawn camping in this case.
Also there is literally no alternative to spawn camping on most maps as attacker because the defenders get dropped right in the attack lane! And as defenders we usually (can't speak for our casuals) only go out and "spawn camp" during the mop up or if attackers decide to stay in their drop zone.
We also offer 1 v 1s occasionally if it's foreseeable that the enemy can't put up with us.
And sorry, after having to deal with certain Wolf units/characters all evening long I am usually not in the mood for mercy anymore. When you start talking about behaviour start with your own guys first.

[Shredhead]

Clementine, on 31 May 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

Aww how cute. Quasi insulting remarks disguised as intelligent criticism. So because you never actually play this game, and thus have never seen me, I am a nobody and would be a waste of time aye? LOL

You nerdy little arm chair warrior you! Keep that ego inflated, you will need it for that soft landing when I send it back crashing down to Earth on the battlefield. Oh, that is if you even play this game enough to remember where the launch button is. [redacted]

And who might you be? As Deadfire put it already, feel free to schedule a scrim or 1 v 1, but I guess your mouth's bigger than your stomach here, kid.

[KuroNyra]

Shredhead, on 31 May 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

anymore. When you start talking about behaviour start with your own guys first.

Ha! So it's "Our" fault that you act like jackass now?
Not going to help the problem here.

It's a problem know in BOTH side, saying it's Clanners or Clan Wolf member fault is just childish, stupid, egoist and it's before everything else Hypocrit.

Edited by KuroNyra, 31 May 2015 - 02:22 PM.

[Shredhead]

KuroNyra, on 31 May 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Ha! So it's "Our" fault that you act like jackass now?
Not going to help the problem here.

It's a problem know in BOTH side, saying it's Clanners or Clan Wolf member fault is just childish, stupid, egoist and it's before everything else Hypocrit.

We weren't jerks to them, we just didn't offer courtesies others got, like 1 v 1s. We did not spawn camp or anything else. We also never do light rushes or crap like that. I just told you how I felt after an evening full of jerks and douchebags calling us names. We also never act like "jackasses", mister.

[MadFJohn]

you know they need to really arm the leopard to its full weapons load. I think 2 PPC, 3 LRM 20, 7 medium Lasers, and 5 Large Lasers that you can't knock out wood have some rethink about hanging out at you enemy deployment spot and they should have them linger longer to. second part i spotted when you are coming in they can still shoot you when you are still in the belly of the dropship. A third suggestion they should add in three more spawn points per side so you can call in a different drop location to add in a little flavor to this.

Edited by MadFJohn, 31 May 2015 - 09:59 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Shredhead, on 31 May 2015 - 03:50 PM, said:

We weren't jerks to them, we just didn't offer courtesies others got, like 1 v 1s. We did not spawn camp or anything else. We also never do light rushes or crap like that. I just told you how I felt after an evening full of jerks and douchebags calling us names. We also never act like "jackasses", mister.

"I'm an exemplar player, I always do good things, it's never my fault and it's always the others".
Maybe you haven't done Spawn camp, but that doesn't mean none of your guys have been doing it, it's not because a Jade Falcon player never do spawn camp that ALL Jade Falcon players never do spawn.

See what I am saying? Or you are just kept being Hypocrit?

[Batch1972]

Hi,

Just thought I'd add my 10 cents worth.

I'm an occasional player so a lone wolf. I'm not bad (nor good). I've dropped a fair bit of coin onto the game but I'm starting to hate the state of the game atm.

The 12v12 game needs some serious work - new maps, objectives - a complete rethink but PGI seems to be throwing all their resources into CW as if it's the game's saviour - it's not..

So because the 12v12 is so stale I pop into the CW queue but I've learnt for experience that playing in a group of lone wolves/small groups is only fun if you're playing against similar groups. So if i get in a queue and there are more that 6 single players, i exit and go do something else. If I get into a match and I'm matched against a team with 7+ members from the same time I quit. It's just a waste of my time. Do I feel guilty? No - it's my time. If you don't want me to do it fix the game.

To be honest the only time I've enjoyed CW is when I've been in teams of lone wolves/small groups vs groups of a similar make up. I was once paired with an 11 man against pugs and it was awful. They all sat on their ts with not a word spoken or typed and proceeded to wipe the floor with the opposition. I've also played against 12 mans and watched as my team don't communicate/don't listen and bring the strangest assortment of mechs and we're wiped out in minutes.

Problem is I really don't know how they are going to fix it. They've had 3 years to do this. All CW really is, is the old 12v12 game where lone wolves and groups were put together. Oh with a map of the Inner Sphere. unless someone can tell me otherwise.

W