115 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Burktross, on 28 May 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

Yup.
That's not to say the same thing doesn't get said from clans
**cough cough G----**

I have only ever advocated for the nerf of one IS mech...that was the 9S with 50% heat reduction on ERPPCs. Which I think anyone would agree was a bit mentally deficient as quirks go.

Otherwise, the only thing I advocate is small adjustments, and often times, I would prefer if people just left sh*t the fk alone...

[Burktross]

Gyrok, on 29 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

I have only ever advocated for the nerf of one IS mech...that was the 9S with 50% heat reduction on ERPPCs. Which I think anyone would agree was a bit mentally deficient as quirks go.

Otherwise, the only thing I advocate is small adjustments, and often times, I would prefer if people just left sh*t the fk alone...

What happened to IS mechs being crutch mechs?

[Darlith]

I say no, there are lots of things I hate about facing clan mechs, but I don't think their lasers need anymore blanket nerfs. Though for that matter I'm not sure the stormcrow and timber needed the nerfs they got. What they need is a reason to carry something other than lasers and the occasional gauss rifle. The stormcrow and timber if they had needed anything needed nerfs to the advantages their oversized engines gave them, I never felt they were too powerful because "OMG seven lasers on a medium how can this be!" I felt there were powerful because they were outrunning me with the same firepower I had and twisting faster than me.

There is one indirect nerf I'd like to see for ERMLs and that is lowering IS ML heat by 1 (then adjust some of the quirks down so that quirked MLs make the same heat post buff as they did before). But that is a personal wish, not something I have sat and gone over the balance of.

On a semi-related note as long as I am wishing for things that won't happen I wish agility was linked to a ratio of engine size to mass, not just engine size. So that a 45 tonner with a 250 engine twists better/faster than a 50 tonner with the same engine. Which I believe isn't how it works right now, or so everyone says.

[Alek Ituin]

Kiiyor, on 28 May 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

If Clan DAKKA has it's burst length shortened, it may make up for current shortfalls in loadout viability.

It will also be the day that I roll out my DakkaWolf, and lay waste to all that lie in front of me.

DEMZ DAKKA WULFZ IZ RITE ORKY DEY IZ. LOADZA DAKKA, LOTZA SHOOTY BITZ. U AINT NEEDZ DEM TA BE GUD, U JUS' GOTTA SHOOT ALL DEM GUNZ AN LET DA DAKKA DO ITZ FING.

Seriously though, DakkaWolves are still viable just through sheer volume of fire. If even half your shots land with most dakka builds you're still doing serious damage. Plus, you can still make most enemy pilots s**t themselves in fear when they see the hail of shells.

[Aresye]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Duration alone doesn't mean anything without damage, though. The trade for more up-front damage damage is supposed to be either face-time or range, but look at the numbers. A C-ERML does 6.08 damage per second over the course of the burn, while an IS ML does 5.56. If you pull your C-ERML off the target at 0.9 seconds like the IS ML does, you deal 5.48 damage. If you pull off after 0.82 seconds, you do 5 damage flat.

You can trade exposure for more damage or heat-cap for less exposure and same damage. In both cases, there is more usable range available, too. In the end, it's an unmitigated advantage. If you run the numbers for stock ERLL and the 540 m LL vs. C-ERLL and C-LPL, or any laser outside of the IS MPL and LPL, you will find a similar result. The MPL and LPL will flip the tables, but they also give up tremendously on range and can be beaten by bringing a pair lighter, lower-classed, longer-ranged Clan weapons.

You're assuming 2 things with this counterargument:

1. That the player utilizing Clan weapons has the ABILITY to focus the entire laser duration to a single spot without spreading damage.

and

2. That the player receiving said damage from Clan lasers makes no effort to spread the damage they are receiving.

In both cases, the player shooting the Clan weapons has to be at a higher level of skill than the player they are facing to get favorable trades.

The only exception to this, is when a perfect player faces another perfect player, in which case it ends up being a relatively close trade-off. The perfect IS player will do less damage, but can spread damage sooner, and has less face time. The perfect Clan player will do more damage, but will likely take the full damage from the perfect IS player due to more face time.

Nobody on either side are perfect players, so the most important number to look at is damage per 0.1s, because whoever can do more damage for less face time is typically going to win the trade.

[Y E O N N E]

1. Everybody has to have the ability to focus the damage. If you can hold an IS Medium laser on-target for 0.9 seconds, you can hold a Clan ER Medium for the same amount of time and do even more damage. The extra damage beyond the 5.48 after 0.9 seconds comes at the price of having to hold it on for the extra amount of time. In fact, burn on a C-ERML should be 1.25 seconds so that it does the same 5 damage after 0.9 seconds as the IS Medium Laser. The whole point of the longer duration is to mitigate the damage advantage with an exposure time penalty.

2. See Number 1. If he can spread 0.9 seconds worth of damage, he's going to spread 0.9 seconds worth regardless of which laser it is.

You see, the IS player can shoot more often, and in fact has to shoot more often, but can only shoot the Clan player if the Clan player is exposed. The Clan player can expose himself for slightly less duration than the IS player and still do the same damage, minimizing his incoming damage at the expense of wasting some of the shot. That provides the Clan player advantage that is physically impossible to mitigate with IS gear. If the IS player tries to rush the position, he is exposing himself to open fire and at that point the Clan weaponry's higher point damage and damage over time will just make mincemeat out of him for any given level of shot placement and damage mitigation skill.

So the Clan laser has:

• Greater total damage (max damage)
  
• Greater impulse damage (max damage over duration)
  
• Greater total damage per second (max damage over duration and cool-down)
  
• Greater damage-weight efficiency
  
• Greater damage-slot efficiency
  
• Greater range
  
• Greater range-over-duration

What do IS have?

• Lower heat
  
• Greater damage-heat efficiency

That's it. That is all they have. You can't say they have shorter duration because the amount of damage done over that duration is less than the amount of damage done over the same duration by the same size Clan laser.

Ergo, Clans have an unmitigated advantage.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 May 2015 - 01:50 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Duration alone doesn't mean anything without damage, though. The trade for more up-front damage damage is supposed to be either face-time or range, but look at the numbers. A C-ERML does 6.08 damage per second over the course of the burn, while an IS ML does 5.56. If you pull your C-ERML off the target at 0.9 seconds like the IS ML does, you deal 5.48 damage. If you pull off after 0.82 seconds, you do 5 damage flat.

What's it look like with quirks? Most IS mechs get laser duration quirks.

And heat generation quirks. And cooldown quirks. A lot have range quirks.

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

You can trade exposure for more damage or heat-cap for less exposure and same damage. In both cases, there is more usable range available, too. In the end, it's an unmitigated advantage. If you run the numbers for stock ERLL and the 540 m LL vs. C-ERLL and C-LPL, or any laser outside of the IS MPL and LPL, you will find a similar result. The MPL and LPL will flip the tables, but they also give up tremendously on range and can be beaten by bringing a pair lighter, lower-classed, longer-ranged Clan weapons.

Yeah, lets totally not count quirks. Couldn't want to skew the results.

[Gyrok]

Burktross, on 29 May 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

What happened to IS mechs being crutch mechs?

I point that out to people calling clan mechs crutch mechs.

If someone is ignorant enough to think a clan mech is a crutch, then they need to be made aware that their IS mechs are a crutch.

The reality is, I have pointed out many IS mechs are a crutch...however...have you ever seen me advocate nerfing any of them?

No, I advocate leaving things alone because balance was fine.

If everyone thinks the other side is OP, things are in a good spot. When everyone agrees one side just got the shaft....(i.e. beam spam nerfs to TW/SCR)...then it is blatantly obvious the balance scale was tipped in the wrong direction, and not by a little bit.

So, what did PGI do? Give a few OP IS crutch mechs a 5% nerf that hurts nothing, essentially...lol...whatever.

[Templar Dane]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

So the Clan laser has:

• Greater total damage (max damage)
  
• Greater impulse damage (max damage over duration)
  
• Greater total damage per second (max damage over duration and cool-down)
  
• Greater damage-weight efficiency
  
• Greater damage-slot efficiency
  
• Greater range
  
• Greater range-over-duration

What do IS have?

• Lower heat
  
• Greater damage-heat efficiency
  
• No negative quirks, unlike 15% or more of clan mechs
  
• Positive quirks which make most of the clan advantages above meaningless
  
• Three large laser without ghost heat
  
• Different weapons aren't linked by ghost heat
  
• Better rate of fire

FYP

[LT. HARDCASE]

Burktross, on 28 May 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

I haven't done anything for cERLL
But look at this.

From an objective standpoint, the cERML has a mere 10% advantage, which may be more or less depending on the weight of its advantages or disadvantages in the field of battle (duration is more important than cooldown, etc.). But consider that IS mLs are usually quirked at least 10%, the cERML get's a slight disadvantage, and that's at lower quirks. All things considered, the two simply work better in their respective niches: cERML at skirmishes, ML at brawls.

Math doesn't even almost work this way hahaha.

[Templar Dane]

Kevjack, on 29 May 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Math doesn't even almost work this way hahaha.

Well, lasers are generally considered a weight saving weapon. You pay for that weight advantage with heat. That is the main drawback of all energy weapons.

I'd argue that 50% more heat (which is intended to be the main drawback of the weapon) is a pretty big deal. Add to that that the heat sinks we're working with in this game aren't as good as they were in TT or previous games....

[Burktross]

Gyrok, on 29 May 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

I point that out to people calling clan mechs crutch mechs.

If someone is ignorant enough to think a clan mech is a crutch, then they need to be made aware that their IS mechs are a crutch.

The reality is, I have pointed out many IS mechs are a crutch...however...have you ever seen me advocate nerfing any of them?

No, I advocate leaving things alone because balance was fine.

If everyone thinks the other side is OP, things are in a good spot. When everyone agrees one side just got the shaft....(i.e. beam spam nerfs to TW/SCR)...then it is blatantly obvious the balance scale was tipped in the wrong direction, and not by a little bit.

So, what did PGI do? Give a few OP IS crutch mechs a 5% nerf that hurts nothing, essentially...lol...whatever.

So...
You call IS mechs crutch mechs...
Because IS scrubs call clan crutch mechs?
"**** you"
"No, **** you."

As for your obvious balance scale, let's wait until PGI shows us updated Clan vs. Inner Sphere statistics.
(And I assure you, the TBR nerf is anything but a shaft. An inappropriate type of nerf, but that's it)

Kevjack, on 29 May 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Math doesn't even almost work this way hahaha.

I'd love to see your calculations.

[Y E O N N E]

lordtzar, on 29 May 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

What's it look like with quirks? Most IS mechs get laser duration quirks.

And heat generation quirks. And cooldown quirks. A lot have range quirks.



Yeah, lets totally not count quirks. Couldn't want to skew the results.

I'm comparing it that way because I want to make weapon quirks unnecessary. They are screwing with balance in a chaotic fashion, and that's stupid. If you fix the guns to naturally balance each other out, you don't need the weapon quirks.

But I'll humor you. Let's look at impulse damage with a 10% duration bonus:

IS SL @ 4.44 vs. C-ERSL @ 5
IS ML @ 6.17 vs. C-ERML @ 6.09
IS LL @ 10 DPS vs. C-LPL (?) @ 11.6
IS ERLL @ 8 vs. C-ERLL @ 7.33

So they get a slight edge...but still have lower damage and lower range. IS range quirks don't usually make the weapons 1-to-1 on range, and so the lower duration is still trying to mitigate two things. They are trying to mitigate that range gap with lower exposure to reduce effective damage received. It's a very indirect nerf to Clan damage.

Unfortunately, PGI is also under the impression that higher overall DPS mitigates high impulse damage and long range, and that's simply not true on maps with lots of cover options (i.e. all of them except Boreal). It becomes doubly not true when the 'Mechs are just straight-up slow.

For giggles, here's 12.5%:
IS SL @ 4.57 vs. C-ERSL @ 5
IS ML @ 6.34 vs. C-ERML @ 6.09
IS LL @ 10.28 DPS vs. C-LPL (?) @ 11.6
IS ERLL @ 8.23 vs. C-ERLL @ 7.33


Here's what it should be
IS SL @ 5 vs. C-ERSL @ 5
IS ML @ 5.6 vs. C-ERML @ 5.6
IS ERLL @ 7.83 vs. C-ERLL @ 7.86

That's with the current damages and the following durations:
IS SL @ 0.6 s vs, C-ERSL @ 1 s
IS ML @ 0.9 s vs. C-ERML @ 1.25 s
IS ERLL @ 1.15 s vs C-ERLL @ 1.4 s

I'm not for or against Clan tech just like I'm not for or against IS tech. What I am against is either side having an unmitigated advantage over the other making such outrageous quirks necessary. Quirks are a complex solution to a problem that I don't think needs it. Increased complexity invites problems. Get rid of quirks, stop calling for Clan tech to be outright superior, and we can fix the weapons balance for everybody.

Edit:

You also have to compare the base stats to understand why there are quirks in the first place. Almost none of you understand the base stats, so your opinions on the quirked stats are worthless.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 May 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Moldur]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

1. Everybody has to have the ability to focus the damage. If you can hold an IS Medium laser on-target for 0.9 seconds, you can hold a Clan ER Medium for the same amount of time and do even more damage. The extra damage beyond the 5.48 after 0.9 seconds comes at the price of having to hold it on for the extra amount of time. In fact, burn on a C-ERML should be 1.25 seconds so that it does the same 5 damage after 0.9 seconds as the IS Medium Laser. The whole point of the longer duration is to mitigate the damage advantage with an exposure time penalty.

2. See Number 1. If he can spread 0.9 seconds worth of damage, he's going to spread 0.9 seconds worth regardless of which laser it is.

You see, the IS player can shoot more often, and in fact has to shoot more often, but can only shoot the Clan player if the Clan player is exposed. The Clan player can expose himself for slightly less duration than the IS player and still do the same damage, minimizing his incoming damage at the expense of wasting some of the shot. That provides the Clan player advantage that is physically impossible to mitigate with IS gear. If the IS player tries to rush the position, he is exposing himself to open fire and at that point the Clan weaponry's higher point damage and damage over time will just make mincemeat out of him for any given level of shot placement and damage mitigation skill.

So the Clan laser has:

• Greater total damage (max damage)
  
• Greater impulse damage (max damage over duration)
  
• Greater total damage per second (max damage over duration and cool-down)
  
• Greater damage-weight efficiency
  
• Greater damage-slot efficiency
  
• Greater range
  
• Greater range-over-duration

What do IS have?

• Lower heat
  
• Greater damage-heat efficiency

That's it. That is all they have. You can't say they have shorter duration because the amount of damage done over that duration is less than the amount of damage done over the same duration by the same size Clan laser.



Ergo, Clans have an unmitigated advantage.

• Innersphere also have no heat penalty for medium and small pulse lasers
  
• lets not forget that energy weapons don't exist in a vacuum and Innersphere have ballistics (that are actually useful anyways.) so there goes all those physically impossible to mitigate advantages.

Innersphere don't have it bad by any stretch. Energy duration quirks would also increase laser DPS which means as long as people are paying some attention to which chassis they are laserboating, they won't be using 'stock' IS lasers.

Edited by Moldur, 29 May 2015 - 02:39 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Moldur, on 29 May 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

• Innersphere also have no heat penalty for medium and small pulse lasers
  
• lets not forget that energy weapons don't exist in a vacuum and Innersphere have ballistics (that are actually useful anyways.) so there goes all those physically impossible to mitigate advantages.

Innersphere don't have it bad by any stretch. Energy duration quirks would also increase laser DPS which means as long as people are paying some attention to which chassis they are laserboating, they won't be using 'stock' IS lasers.

There's a ghost heat penalty on Medium lasers, you just don't see it often because almost nobody really brings more than six of them and, if they could, a better option is usually combining six with a pair of Large-size lasers or a heavy ballistic. There's no ghost on Smalls, because even 8 of them isn't even breaking 30 damage and they don't break 200 meters. The gun is only marginally more useful than Machine Guns. We don't talk about the Flamer.

Those ballistic advantages don't exist in a vacuum, either. The guns weigh and are sized more than an IS 'Mech can manage and still maintain similar speed and durability as their Clan opponents, and forget about bringing similarly effective backup weapons or having similar heat cap/dissipation. Seriously, you go build a dual UAC/5 Jagermech that can carry the same laser firepower as a twin UAC/5 Hellbringer WITH the same range, and let me know how it goes. I can tell you that you'll have to drop to an XL235 if you want to shove three LL in there to match the four C-ERML in the Hellbringer, and I haven't even gotten to armor optimization yet. IS customization advantage is largely a farce.

Finally, no, the IS don't have it bad, but they also don't have the overall advantage like the Clans do. Balance is pretty close, but not as close as it could be, precisely because of quirks. See my post immediately above yours for my stance on quirks. TL;DR of it is that they exist now to balance out inherent drawbacks, but they don't need to exist and are making balance a nightmare by over-compensating on certain chassis-variants just to give them an option over specific builds on specific Clan 'Mechs. It's silly, convoluted, and can be solved by properly balancing the guns themselves...which we can do if people shut up about "Clans are supposed to be better" and let PGI make them equal but different.

Edit: added quote.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 May 2015 - 03:05 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

I'm comparing it that way because I want to make weapon quirks unnecessary. They are screwing with balance in a chaotic fashion, and that's stupid. If you fix the guns to naturally balance each other out, you don't need the weapon quirks.

But I'll humor you. Let's look at impulse damage with a 10% duration bonus:

IS SL @ 4.44 vs. C-ERSL @ 5
IS ML @ 6.17 vs. C-ERML @ 6.09
IS LL @ 10 DPS vs. C-LPL (?) @ 11.6
IS ERLL @ 8 vs. C-ERLL @ 7.33

So they get a slight edge...but still have lower damage and lower range. IS range quirks don't usually make the weapons 1-to-1 on range, and so the lower duration is still trying to mitigate two things. They are trying to mitigate that range gap with lower exposure to reduce effective damage received. It's a very indirect nerf to Clan damage.

Unfortunately, PGI is also under the impression that higher overall DPS mitigates high impulse damage and long range, and that's simply not true on maps with lots of cover options (i.e. all of them except Boreal). It becomes doubly not true when the 'Mechs are just straight-up slow.

For giggles, here's 12.5%:
IS SL @ 4.57 vs. C-ERSL @ 5
IS ML @ 6.34 vs. C-ERML @ 6.09
IS LL @ 10.28 DPS vs. C-LPL (?) @ 11.6
IS ERLL @ 8.23 vs. C-ERLL @ 7.33


Here's what it should be
IS SL @ 5 vs. C-ERSL @ 5
IS ML @ 5.6 vs. C-ERML @ 5.6
IS ERLL @ 7.83 vs. C-ERLL @ 7.86

That's with the current damages and the following durations:
IS SL @ 0.6 s vs, C-ERSL @ 1 s
IS ML @ 0.9 s vs. C-ERML @ 1.25 s
IS ERLL @ 1.15 s vs C-ERLL @ 1.4 s

I'm not for or against Clan tech just like I'm not for or against IS tech. What I am against is either side having an unmitigated advantage over the other making such outrageous quirks necessary. Quirks are a complex solution to a problem that I don't think needs it. Increased complexity invites problems. Get rid of quirks, stop calling for Clan tech to be outright superior, and we can fix the weapons balance for everybody.

Edit:

You also have to compare the base stats to understand why there are quirks in the first place. Almost none of you understand the base stats, so your opinions on the quirked stats are worthless.

Clan vs IS equilibrium will take years. Quirks are needed for the foreseeable future. If you nerfed the **** out of all the clan lasers, what's the point? Right now, as things are, why would anybody take a TBR over a thunderbolt? People are fitting pulse lasers and missiles over the laser vomit, why not just take the thunderbolt and not have to deal with the mickey mouse ears?

IS still has their laser vomit. IS still gonna spam large lasers. The recent clan nerfs were kneejerk reactions to people using the two best clan mechs....a lot....and it never even dawned on them to consider why.

IS have good light mechs, good medium mechs, good heavy mechs, and good assaults. Clan had one good medium, two good heavies, and 1.5 good assaults. If there had been a better selection, there wouldn't have been so many TBRs and SCRs.

And then unjustified nerfs come. What as it, 40% more IS players? When the typical reaction in mmos is to join the "best" side. Devs that don't play the game, listening to biased players.....ugh

[MerryIguana]

Gyrok, on 29 May 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

however...have you ever seen me advocate nerfing any of them?

Gyrok, on 29 May 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

I have only ever advocated for the nerf of one IS mech..

Its almost like theres 2 of you, and they never talk to each other.

[Aresye]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 May 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

You see, the IS player can shoot more often, and in fact has to shoot more often, but can only shoot the Clan player if the Clan player is exposed. The Clan player can expose himself for slightly less duration than the IS player and still do the same damage, minimizing his incoming damage at the expense of wasting some of the shot.

I'm sorry, but that's a steaming load of BULL F****** $&*%

The 65t TDR-5SS w/ 7 MPL weighs the same tonnage, and has the same damage output as a 6 CERML HBR with a 42 alpha. With quirks, it can do full damage with those 7 MPL up to 385m, giving the HBR a whopping 20m advantage in range (aka: yes, that's "twenty" meters).

Now, the 5SS can do all those 42 points of damage within 0.6s. The HBR, at 1.15s, has to stay exposed for nearly DOUBLE the amount of time in order to do its full 42 points of damage.

What do you think the 5SS is doing after it's done firing? Lingering around letting the HBR do full damage? Not twisting? No, it's going to go back behind cover to recharge, or twist away to spread incoming damage.

That's what you don't understand about this argument. You say the IS player has to shoot more often, which is true with certain builds, but then you go on to say that the IS pilot can only shoot while the Clan player is exposed, which I guess is also true, but you're doing your calculations with the assumption that the IS player will continue to stand there taking it while its weapons are recharging, which is plain idiotic.

The TDR-5SS weighs the same as the HBR, yet its side torsos have 15 more HP each, does the same damage for less heat in half the duration, has NEARLY the same range, runs a standard engine, has at least 3-4 of its weapons left if it gets either torso shot off, no heat penalty for losing a side torso, and runs just under 7kph slower.

[Flutterguy]

Aresye Kerensky, on 29 May 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

The 65t TDR-5SS w/ 7 MPL weighs the same tonnage, and has the same damage output as a 6 CERML HBR with a 42 alpha. With quirks, it can do full damage with those 7 MPL up to 385m, giving the HBR a whopping 20m advantage in range (aka: yes, that's "twenty" meters).

I'm going to stay out of this for the most part but where are you getting that number? By my calculations including the range module it should be 220*1.6 = 352m and then you're being disingenuous anyways by not including the range module on both sides so a proper comparison would be 352 to 445.5 or a range difference of 93.5 meters, not 20 meters.

You can go back to your rant now.

Edited by Flutterguy, 29 May 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Averen]

LOL at taking the usage of a standard engine as an advantage. Really valuable to run 0.5 more secs around without any weapons.

If you're so afraid of the TDR-5SS, how about you try a stormcrow, or hellbringer with 6MPL? You might be surprised. Range is identical after 50% quirks, 15% more cooldown don't even compensate the higher DPS of the clan CERMPL, and clan dhs cooling is also better despite quirks. Also still higher mobility for clan mechs.
It's telling that, despite all of this, clan mech users still tend to prefer CERML.

Edited by Averen, 29 May 2015 - 04:58 PM.