387 replies to this topic

[Unit47]

LRMs are bad, don't bring them.
If you insist on bringing them get your own locks.
You are a waste of a slot and a burden to your team.
Every halfway decent direct fire build is far far superior.

[xX PUG Xx]

Khobai, on 30 May 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

well if your not hiding in the back, and you have direct LoS on the enemy, then why are you using LRMs?

direct fire weapons are better than LRMs when you have LoS. LRMs are only better in cases of indirect fire.

Perhaps trying to fill the role of fire-support? Some of us actually like the challenge of NOT playing the strongest (read META/Flava of he Month) loadout or 'Mech. The game would become very stale and boring if we all played uber-leet comp-pro-skillz builds all the time.

I would also say there are players out there that have a physical limitation (I refrain from saying disability) that means LRMs give them access to being able to play the game and the feeling they are at least making a contribution to the team. The twitch fest that is PP-FLD playstyles and loadouts are not the easiest for those players, got to bear that in mind too when berating someone for daring to use something not "META" or direct fire.

Quote

Again the problem is the whole selfish mentality to get as many kills as possible. PGI needs to change that.

Just saw this edit and I agree with you to a certain extent, WE are the ones playing the game and WE are the ones that choose how we play it.

Edited by xX PUG Xx, 30 May 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[DukeRustfield]

Kilo 40, on 29 May 2015 - 11:32 PM, said:

lol! yes an LRM 160 would indeed be a waste. if you can't use those 160 tubes throughout the entire fight, then whats the point?

Then you're saying it wrong. Have ammo to feed your weapons. That has nothing to do with LRMs. Having 4 UltraAC and 1 ton of ammo doesn't mean Ultras are bad. It means that setup is too heavy for that mech. But if you can stick on 4 ultras and feed it ammo (like on a king crab) it's amazing. But more is always better if you can support them.

I have ~1800 ammo. I can use my LRMs for 80% of the fight even firing a lot. And at that point it's more close combat anyway. Or we've lost. Or something.

[Catra Lanis]

Has it ever occurred to you that "hold locks please" might mean "get and hold locks when you can" and not "you must go out of your way to get locks for me" ?

Edited by Catra Lanis, 30 May 2015 - 02:44 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Catra Lanis, on 30 May 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:

Has it ever occurred to you that "hold locks please" might mean "get and hold locks when you can" and not "you must go out of your way to get locks for me" ?

Yeah, sounds a lot like you guys are using this as an argument just out of spite. It's just a request for you to use the R button if you happens to see a hollow triangle while doing what you wanted to do anyway.

[Mudhutwarrior]

This is for the puds who say not to bring LRMs or bring them is a detriment to the team.

It's a GAME stupid!


People play games to have fun. let them bring whatever they like to. If your in a random drop and not in some hard team you have no say and bitching about it shows you to be a nimrod of the first order.

[chewie]

Lots of varied views.

At the end of the day, LRMs are designed to be a support weapon. Not a big killer weapon like an AC20 or Gauss rifle.

The taker of the weapon sits back at 7-800 and drops missiles on targets as and when he can.

getting a lock and holding it is, as has been mentioned, beneficial to all the rest of the team (yea, even in pug matches, your a team, so try and remember that). If you are in danger of getting mugged 'cause your on your own in a light harassing the slower mechs, then get out of danger if you can.

LRM mech can change targets.

The only time someone who brings LRM's should be deserving of any derision is when its a pure grief boat.

LRM's while somewhat underpowered (in some folks eyes) are a distraction. Being hit by a constant stream of them (2 mechs with 4-6 LRM5's each) is the low mans tactic.

And they know it.

They know it is annoying for a player as all hell when some sod in a firestarter or similar small laser/MG/srm build is crawling up your back, your trying your hardest to see through the wall of fire on your screen at where the annoyance is.

And that's what they aim for, these LRM *boats*.

While they are actually beneficial to a degree to their team because they keep the opponent distracted, they have no other value.


case in point


Last night, i got a little hot and bothered while being pounded by 2 such players, being chased by a light mech, with no backup and no way to do much but fire where i though the little sod was.

Eventually I ducked behind a hill, and was still rained on.

After being destroyed we had a civilized discourse, to which point one of the said LRMers claimed it was *pure skill*.

That person has earned my ever lasting hate for a tool that he is.

Yes there is a skill in using LRMs, eg knowing whether you should fire them or not because you get that feeling he's either about to break your lock (waste of ammo) or from your map you can see he is in a place where your not likely to hit him.

That is the skill in using a weapon.

Not piling them in and just chaining them on some poor soul because you know how distracting it is.


LRM's are a support weapon. Use them as such, and stop taking the fun out for all others in the game, other than yourself.

[Leone]

I brawl, and I don't hate LRM builds. Well, I mean, yeah, if the enemy team has one, I'll try to kill my way towards it, cuz Rawr! But seriously, doesn no one understand situational advantage? Think of this game in tactical terms. The reason Teamwork is OP? Because 4>1

To be honest, its better for my team if I hold off an enemy lance from our flank alone than if I group up to get kills and assist and let the enemy flank us and take out unaware teammates, but only if I can drag out my death. For those precious moments or minutes, while I'm burning my mech it means they'll be three up, briefly, in the larger engagement.

The Lrms job is just as much about trying to game that situational advantage as it is in getting damage or kills. You can be an person defending a flank, even while holding the front. Getting lrm rain while I'm alone trying to fend off a lance? Always approved. Or, conversly, and more often, you can hold the flank while helping the push. Trading on the flank whilest raining for the push.

Some folk have made mention of wasting shots on mechs behind cover. I have actually seen an lrm mech do that on purpose to help the team. Uav up on the Jager hiding behind cover with occasional lrm 5 volley smacking into the wall, and the sniper just sits there, the pilot thinking slyly to themselves that they're making you waste oh so precious lrms, whilest your team takes advantage of the respite to ball into the enemy, free from sniper fire. Congratulations, no damage done, but one enemy out of the equation. Lrm success.

It does take skill, and good map knowledge to be truely effective, and I don't think I'm quite there yet, but just today, just to see, I brought my lrm 60 mech to CW. And guess what? I helped the team, alot. I held the front, I drew plenty of fire (Which I could return whilest maintaining cover,) and many an enemy mech exposed themselve to covering fire trying to finish me. I got damage, got kills, and was on the front line the whole time.

And then, when I start running dry, the mechs still not useless. Fire my last few lrms while closing into range, and if you annoyed em enough the enemy may very well ignore the laser show next to you, just so as to finish that annoying lrm mech.

The LRM is an efficient weapon. That's why it has hard counters like ECM and terrain, and soft counters like AMS. And yes, some days you drop against a cluster of ams so dense you can't get through. But I even though I brawl, I respect anyone who can LRM or spot effectively for their more normal usage.

~Leone, Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand.

Edited by Leone, 30 May 2015 - 04:39 AM.

[masCh]

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

So you are one of the 10 people who can make good use of LRMs.

Does that make it a VIABLE TACTIC? In Pugs?

Well that's not the point was it?

The point was many of you called us a waste of a slot.

[Joseph Mallan]

Unit47, on 30 May 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

LRMs are bad, don't bring them.
If you insist on bringing them get your own locks.
You are a waste of a slot and a burden to your team.
Every halfway decent direct fire build is far far superior.

Actually if this is how you see team work... maybe you are the waste of a slot.

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

So you are one of the 10 people who can make good use of LRMs.

Does that make it a VIABLE TACTIC? In Pugs?

Tactic

Yes. Yes it does.

[Savage Wolf]

Leone, on 30 May 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

The LRM is an efficient weapon. That's why it has hard counters like ECM and terrain, and soft counters like AMS. And yes, some days you drop against a cluster of ams so dense you can't get through. But I even though I brawl, I respect anyone who can LRM or spot effectively for their more normal usage.

No, that's just because lore demands it. Not because it's actually good game design or anything like that. Otherwise Artimis would just be included in LRM launcers.

[masCh]

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

You killed a bunch of mech that others already weakened. Thats called 'vulturing'.

So are you saying the 1000+ damages did not count to the weakening of opposing mechs? Did you think the mech was shutdown not firing any weapons since the beginning of the match? Can you tell me where the 1000+ damage came from?

Did you check the damage output the rest of the team dished out? Can you show who did I vulture kills from?
(I'm not discrediting the output of the team, they all served well, we are not debating who is better or who underperformed - The topic of discussion is whether my Catapult was a "waste of a slot".)

I can't believe you say we are a waste of a slot. I use direct fire weapons on most of my 'mechs too because personally I find LRMs boring.. but I'd never call them inefficient, nor would I ever imagine thinking they're a waste of a slot.

[Black Ivan]

LRMs make good support weapons. I was in several games whewre our LRM support helped much to surpress enemy team and wither it down. A player asking for locks is nothing less when asking to hold for lock WHEN possible.

[Joseph Mallan]

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

You killed a bunch of mech that others already weakened. ^{Thats called 'vulturing'}. Its not a bad thing, mind you, usually the job of remaining lights.

Today i saw a re-connect Zeus bring our team 7-11 to 11-12.
Sample size of 1 means little.

Ive gotten 6 kills in a Commando once, that mean Commandos are really good?

No its called team work.

[masCh]

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

'Holding a Lock' REALLY means "hey go risk losing armor so i can hit the badguy"

A dedicated spotter CANNOT fire or position will be given away...so there is 1 mech not doing damage.
The LRM boat firing may hit/may not hit the target if the target can get out of the rain.

So your team is down 1.5 mechs worth of offense just to TRY to get LRM to work.

Unbelievable!

A dedicated spotter would know how to position himself, press the R with a Tag from the back of a cluster, and LRMs could already disperse damage to them way before the rest of the team's med pulse lasers come into range.

That's proper teamwork, you don't expect that in pugs, but when it happens you see they're not so useless after all.

p/s We're not asking people to be dedicated spotters. We are simply asking people to press R when you're fighting. And I use the word "We" even though I have not asked anyone myself except when I'm spectating and looking at all these duelling heavies who don't bother targetting their opponent and we have LRMs around waiting for targets.

Edited by masCh, 30 May 2015 - 05:14 AM.

[Jalik]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having a LRM centric build is already being down a useful player.

They are terribly inefficient weapons that are so easy to completely neuter.

They are generally a waste of a player slot.

have you never seen a Hbk-4J with lrm10 modules in a mid to close range support role? by that I mean walking right behind you guys in second or third row... not somewhere way back at base hitting the fire button at any target below 1000 meters and hitting mostly mountains or buildings. If you ever saw this and how those pilots add to the total damage of your team.. therefore helping you winning the match.. you'd think much better of lrm mechs. if played well, they are not as easy to counter as you might think.. because they bring a tag

[Joseph Mallan]

InspectorG, on 29 May 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

I press R all the time, but i also cycle it quickly making 'holding a lock' fruitless.

'Holding a Lock' REALLY means "hey go risk losing armor so i can hit the badguy"

A dedicated spotter CANNOT fire or position will be given away...so there is 1 mech not doing damage.
The LRM boat firing may hit/may not hit the target if the target can get out of the rain.

So your team is down 1.5 mechs worth of offense just to TRY to get LRM to work.
Mind you a dedicated team can make it work better. Because: practice and teemwork.


Decent LuRMers will TAG for the better lock/damage. Narc is icing on the cake.

LRM would be WAY better if the indirect fire mechanics involved the 'B' map but if it was too strong, direct fire would be obsolete similar to real warfare.

We had a dedicated scout in the Law. He could not only tell us where the enemy was. he would tell us what composition they had. The color Camo they wore. Direction of travel. And what he was planning on eating for lunch tomorrow. While racking up kills. In a Jenner.

[StrikerSW]

Zeusus, on 29 May 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Well first off the guy shouldn't have actually disconnected, that was a disservice. Ignore the fool telling him to disco. Use what weapons you want, of you aren't doing competitive it doesn't matter. Secondly If you are packing LRMs you shouldn't require locks from us as you should be in the pack and able to get your own, not hanging out in the back. Which ties into my next point well. Thirdly I know I get annoyed by LRM boats complaining about me not holding locks. If I am not it is because I can't see the enemy, I'm not gonna suicide for you. If I am holding a lock I am brawling. Get over here and back me up, I'll be your meat shield but you should be no more than 300m from the enemy. Otherwise you are wasting ammo.

Well said, LRM's have their place in this game and as a support weapon are useful in assisting teammates taking a beating perhaps out the missleboats line of sight. Being close but just below the hill line is how IMHO a missle support mech helps his team mates in the beginning of a game. The key is you must be close so your missles hit fast and add damage and distraction for the targeted mech. I always appreciate LRM rain when brawling especially if I'm a bit out gunned. Having at least 4 medium lasers as direct fire support is just as important. I do always wonder why people load those boats and spray the air ineffectively only to run out of missle and they have no backup weapon, that's just foolish. If someone says that LRM boats are useless the player is likely just not aware how to run the build to be effective and yet stay alive. I also agree there are lots of ways to counter LRM's thats why 90% of the time I run Radar Dep.

This game is full of complainers and you have to learn to mute them on hud or in your mind otherwise you will be quitting and letting your team down by leaving them one short.

[Ashvins]

Most of the time in pug matches players don't target the enemy at all, let alone for LRM boat's. Which is about the stupidest thing you can do. I have one just one LRM boat, my Golden Boy. When I pilot it I ask people to lock targets because most pug's don't, not because i need help but because it help's them and the team out to lock those targets.

It let's your team know where the enemy is, it lets the direct fire people know where to shoot the enemy, and if a target is worth shooting at all (no weapon's left for example). I could care less about getting a kill or "padding my damage" I'm out for the win. I can't tell you how many time's I've seen people fight someone with one leg cherry red but still shoot them ct and loose because they are either too stubborn to press "R" or too stupid.

When I "LURM" I'm always in the top 5 in damage for the match and usually in the #1 spot. But I usually finish with few to no kill's, so the "Kill Stealing" argument is out the window. I stick with the group most of the time and when I finally do run out of ammo I'm in the enemy's face just like any brawler. The only thing I ever ask of my team when I "LURM" is that they at least help to watch my back. I can't deal with the guy's who sneak up on me with the AC 20 4 med pulse build up close. Help protect the LRM boat so he can at least soften up the enemy.

Yes I give LRM boats a hard time in pug matches because most LRM pilots suck at it, and are a detriment to their team.But not every person who uses LRM is a no skill hack, most are but not all.

[Kotzi]

Teambased weapons in a teambased game? Insanity!! The only weapon relying on your teammates to work is overwhelmingly too hard for the "Mechwarriors". Benefits of a weaponsystem that can do damage without retaliation if done right? Who would need that. You guys better check that metamech site to stay up to date for your cheese.