387 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

I like having some LRM support actually, and I like bringing NARCs to get it as well. I don't really care whether people ask for locks or not, because i will try my best to lock targets anyways, and everyone should. I'm not convinced asking for locks is necessarily a sign of a "parasite", why shouldn't you let your team know that you are bringing a lock dependent support weapon so they can use it better?

LRM boats that move up and fight are certainly better than those who hide in the back though, because LRMs get so much more effective when they have less travel time (less risk of the lock being lost before connect.), but hiding in the back is a problem with lots of players regardless of their builds.

And yeah LRMs need a buff, absolutely. Better direct fire capabilities and reduction of the IS min range for starters.

[Deathlike]

masCh, on 29 May 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Commit to what? All that is needed is to press the R key while you're fighting and shooting at targets. That is all that LRM pilots want. Nobody expects you to go out of your way to get a lock, what's the point? The target will find cover anyway so all that effort is wasted. I can't believe people think that's expected of them.

All we care about is please press that R key while you're fighting.

I've never been one to say "Lock your targets please" but I always appreciate when someone else says it.

I'm talking about committing to helping an LRM boat.

I do pay attention the "incoming LRMs icon", and I'll do my part (it's free money+XP).

It doesn't help with the LRM user blames the team, but then again others blame the team w/o even using LRMs.

What bothers me most is the LRM user's ability to be able to push.

I mean, it shouldn't be "complicated" to get in the back of the group and push with them, and usually the LRM player stays back... and usually get isolated.

What's actually worse is that the ability to push is actually hampered... one less direct fire platform for pushing into critical situations (like say, into the HPG basement) negates the LRM user's ability to do any sort of work.

A lot of the problems with LRM boats are situation... it's fun and games when you can situationally take advantage of these things. However... more often than not, I see them do a lot of dumb/bad things, that contributes to their own ineffectiveness. Even though you may occasionally wreck a good team in the pub drops... the inability to respond to aggressive threats (which on occasional happens, and most people aren't very good at responding to, but more emphasized with LRM users) is why I don't take it seriously.


It only gets worse when half the team is full of LRM boats, and letting the "tanks" or "meat shields" in front of them take the damage, AND ESPECIALLY not properly assisting in taking out what's in front of them (bad decisions with bad targets).


Then there's LRM users trying to LRM lights with their full load...

In some ways, using LRMs is a self-imposed handicap when certain situations arise.

[InspectorG]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

We had a dedicated scout in the Law. He could not only tell us where the enemy was. he would tell us what composition they had. The color Camo they wore. Direction of travel. And what he was planning on eating for lunch tomorrow. While racking up kills. In a Jenner.

Thats pretty damn good.

[masCh]

Deathlike, on 30 May 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

I'm talking about committing to helping an LRM boat.

It doesn't help with the LRM user blames the team, but then again others blame the team w/o even using LRMs.

What bothers me most is the LRM user's ability to be able to push.

I mean, it shouldn't be "complicated" to get in the back of the group and push with them, and usually the LRM player stays back... and usually get isolated.

A lot of the problems with LRM boats are situation... it's fun and games when you can situationally take advantage of these things. However... more often than not, I see them do a lot of dumb/bad things, that contributes to their own ineffectiveness. Even though you may occasionally wreck a good team in the pub drops... the inability to respond to aggressive threats (which on occasional happens, and most people aren't very good at responding to, but more emphasized with LRM users) is why I don't take it seriously.

Then there's LRM users trying to LRM lights with their full load...

In some ways, using LRMs is a self-imposed handicap when certain situations arise.

A lot of those are true for ER Large Laser mechs as well. They also tend to stay at the back.

Quote

It only gets worse when half the team is full of LRM boats, and letting the "tanks" or "meat shields" in front of them take the damage, AND ESPECIALLY not properly assisting in taking out what's in front of them (bad decisions with bad targets).

Are there still people who push forward that far from your LRM mechs once you've identified their mechs during the pre-battle screen? Isn't it obvious that if you have many mechs that could be boats, you'd not venture too far from them so that they can also provide another target for the enemy mechs to shoot at, therefore playing smartly as a team?

I don't blame you though I still see one or two pilots venturing far from their big LRM-type mechs, I just shake my Centurion head as I watch them get blown off.. they only had themselves to blame.

[InspectorG]

masCh, on 30 May 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Unbelievable!

A dedicated spotter would know how to position himself, press the R with a Tag from the back of a cluster, and LRMs could already disperse damage to them way before the rest of the team's med pulse lasers come into range.

That's proper teamwork, you don't expect that in pugs, but when it happens you see they're not so useless after all.

p/s We're not asking people to be dedicated spotters. We are simply asking people to press R when you're fighting. And I use the word "We" even though I have not asked anyone myself except when I'm spectating and looking at all these duelling heavies who don't bother targetting their opponent and we have LRMs around waiting for targets.

I think you expect a bit too much out of Pugs.

Now, in my experience with Pugs, that criteria is about 30% likely after 10pm EST.

Before that time, its bads trying to find reverse on their steering wheels.

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

Actually if this is how you see team work... maybe you are the waste of a slot.


Tactic

Yes. Yes it does.

Then why isnt it more meta?

[masCh]

InspectorG, on 30 May 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

I think you expect a bit too much out of Pugs.

Now, in my experience with Pugs, that criteria is about 30% likely after 10pm EST.

Before that time, its bads trying to find reverse on their steering wheels.

I think I have already clarified that when I wrote "you don't expect that in pugs".

No in pugs you don't expect anything. And you should not expect the LRM in your team to be terribad either.

Think positive!

[Sorbic]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having a LRM centric build is already being down a useful player.

They are terribly inefficient weapons that are so easy to completely neuter.


They often can't keep up with the deathball, and I'm not about to kill myself trying to support him, while he can't even damage the enemy.
Down a player, without saying a single thing.


I won't insult them when asking for locks; I'll just ignore them. I lock targets when I shoot them. I will not not get locks out of spite, but I won't stop torso twisting so he can pad his stats with useless damage.

They are generally a waste of a player slot.

While LRMs are in a poor spot it really comes down to how much ECM/AMS the team you're fighting has. So discounting a LRM heavy mech as down a player is just silly. Even with excessive ECM I see folks/can usually do better than a lot of the poorly piloted DF mechs folks don't auto discount.

Also, nowhere in ANY "please hold locks" statement that I've ever seen has anyone said to take unnecessary damage while doing so. I've always viewed it as someone asking folks not to cycle the R button when they have a mech in their sights. That and for them to just hit the damn R button which many folks don't seem to do for themselves. Paperdoll is hard?

OP, it's probably safe to assume that anyone who badgers a LRM'er in game just doesn't like LRM's because they've had their arse reamed by them.

Edited by Sorbic, 30 May 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Johny Rocket]

1 argument that annoys me, "competitive team players do/say/use this"

Competitive team players make up a very small fraction of the player base, most aren't all that impressive in solo, so why should I care what they do/say/use.

So a question for the lrm bashers, if they suck so bad, why do you run like hell for cover as soon as some are coming your way?
You do realize when you are forced to take cover you just lost any advantage you had, you are now on the defensive.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 30 May 2015 - 07:25 AM.

[Lightfoot]

AvatarofWhat, on 29 May 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

the problem is less with lrm's and more with the person asking for locks implying that they are not going to be able to get their own. If they are not exposed to the enemy when the rest of the team is that means they are not sharing armor.

If they are not sharing armor, then that means whatever mechs are upfront are going to be focus fired harder. So essentially what they are asking is for you to die for them so they can pad their damage score with very unfocused damage spread through multiple components.

A good lrm player is using tag to focus missiles and break through ecm, shares their amor, and probably also uses artermis. They dont need to ask for locks because they want to use their tag to make sure as many missiles as possible hit ct.

I keep up with the team firing over their heads at whatever the target is, hitting it with my TAG laser, but once you start shooting LRMs you become the main focus-fire target so standing in the open with a weapon that has indirect fire capability is beyond dumb. Going one on one at range with direct-fire LRMs is good, what you want really, but you have to set up those opportunities and avoid focus-fire because once those LRMs go up it's like a giant shoot-me Flare.

BTW, Clan Artemis is broken. Or not worth using. Inner Sphere Artemis is still worth using, but is also bugged. Not what it used to be.

Edited by Lightfoot, 30 May 2015 - 07:30 AM.

[masCh]

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

So a question for the lrm bashers, if they suck so bad, why do you run like hell for cover as soon as some are coming your way?
You do realize when you are forced to take cover you just lost any advantage you had, you are now on the defensive.

That's what I said earlier too : http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4469687

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Kilo 40, on 29 May 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

I 100% disagree with that, and feel that it's a common mistake people make.

I (almost) never go over 30 tubes. be that 6 LRM5s, 2 LRM15s, or 3 LRM10s. going over that is wasted tonnage in my opinion. tonnage that could mean sustained ammo for the entire match vs LRM bukkakie that's over with very very quickly.

ammo wise, I go 1.5 tones for every five tubes and find that ratio usually lasts most if not all the match. so 2 LRM10, takes 6 tones, 2 LRM15s gets 9 tones, etc.. the only exception is when I boat LRM5, then I pack as much ammo as I can carry.

tubes don't do damage. the ammo you carry does the damage.

the more you talk kilo the more you sound like an idiot. i can see you only play med lrm mechs because its sensless for an assault to be packing lrm 5's or anything less then a lrm 40 with 10+ tons of ammo.

proof

Edited by Mellifluer, 30 May 2015 - 07:37 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mellifluer, on 30 May 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

the more you talk kilo the more you sound like an idiot. i can see you only play med lrm mechs because its sensless for an assault to be packing lrm 5's or anything less then a lrm 40 with 10+ tons of ammo.

At this, I suppose, the question becomes, are Assaults really optimal in that role to begin with? I know I've run a Battlemaster and a Warhawk with LRMs, and slightly lighter, an LRM40 Orion. But the question comes down, at least for "serious" play..... is that the optimal use role for an Assault, or should it be in a position where it's using it's firepower AND armor for the good of the team?

I'm still undecided, but am starting to lean to LRMs being a better investment on lighter chassis, that can change fire positions more rapidly, bring less armor and firepower to the fight to begin with, etc. I'd rather See Stalkers and Atlases in the thick of it, personally. Awesomes.... well.... those are a tougher call....because most times, I'd rather just see a different chassis, period, lol.

[InspectorG]

masCh, on 30 May 2015 - 04:55 AM, said:

Well that's not the point was it?

The point was many of you called us a waste of a slot.

I dont think i called it a waste of a slot, i believe i called it inefficient. Inefficient due to having more requirements to do damage.

If you can find a spotter who can fight and spot at the same time in a Pug, thats a 1-in a 100 player. Maybe 1 in a 1000?

And like any other Pugger, factor in basic competency. LRM boat throws half his ammo at a Firestarter zipping around. Ive seen more of this than competent LRM boats.

Dont get me wrong, if a pilot can do LRM well, i dont mind. But they are also the ones who accept the fact they need their own locks and understand the value of TAG. Catapult A1(no energy one?) is kinda stuck in this regard.

Really just think about it.

Average Pug is a crap shoot with team composition and skill of teammates.
Average tactic is gonna be murderball to the center(if all goes well...had a string of rabbit runs yesterday)
Average pilot is gonna have so-so aim and NOT lock on when things get dicey.
Average pilot DOES NOT COMMUNICATE.

And you want to add complexity to this by expecting teammates to remember to lock for the guy in the back trying to hit ghosts?

Bring your own TAG, dont ask for locks. Dont expect teammwork. If you can make LRMs work under those conditions, i have NO PROBLEM WITH YOU LURMING.

I normally roll Cicada and i peek-a-boo like a mofo cuz thats about all a Cicada can do. Why should i risk my armor so you can get a hit ?

Teamwork? I dont expect teamwork in a Pug. Expecting it leads to insanity.

You bring a TAG, problem solved.

[Johny Rocket]

Mellifluer, on 30 May 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

the more you talk kilo the more you sound like an idiot. i can see you only play med lrm mechs because its sensless for an assault to be packing lrm 5's or anything less then a lrm 40 with 10+ tons of ammo.

There are a couple of advantages to smaller tubes, rate of fire and spread.
One of my most consistent high damage mechs is a STK5M with 3x lrm5 2x lrm10 tag and an ERLL

[InspectorG]

masCh, on 30 May 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I think I have already clarified that when I wrote "you don't expect that in pugs".

No in pugs you don't expect anything. And you should not expect the LRM in your team to be terribad either.

Think positive!

I really dont expect positive or negative outcomes. Its like opening a present. I dont know what to expect.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

There are a couple of advantages to smaller tubes, rate of fire and spread.
One of my most consistent high damage mechs is a STK5M with 3x lrm5 2x lrm10 tag and an ERLL

I find if you have the hardpoints (5 or 6, optimally) the LRM5 is always the better investment. They focus their damage much better and I usually eat thru mech sin my 6x5 MDD faster than in any heavier tube count mech. Plus the sheer chaos and shake and flash of a nonstop stream of LRms really seems to piss people off/shake them up, which is almost always a bonus. If I encounter AMS, I'll group fire them.

[Johny Rocket]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

I find if you have the hardpoints (5 or 6, optimally) the LRM5 is always the better investment. They focus their damage much better and I usually eat thru mech sin my 6x5 MDD faster than in any heavier tube count mech. Plus the sheer chaos and shake and flash of a nonstop stream of LRms really seems to piss people off/shake them up, which is almost always a bonus. If I encounter AMS, I'll group fire them.

Exactly why I consider the KTO18 to be the best lrm dispenser.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 30 May 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[masCh]

The only reason you want to bring larger tubes (LRM15, LRM20) is to defeat the opponent's AMS system.

Otherwise LRM5's are better.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Exactly why I consider the KTO18 to be the best lrm dispenser.

I'd agree if HBK-4Js didn't outlaunch them. It's the one time I will recommend LRM10s, lol. Plus, Hunchbacks > KTos, so there's that.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

I'd agree if HBK-4Js didn't outlaunch them. It's the one time I will recommend LRM10s, lol. Plus, Hunchbacks > KTos, so there's that.

Have we reached the point in saying that the 4J is overquirked?

Even the Trebuchet should be getting that kind of love, but due to being generally bad.... the Hunchback has always been reasonably durable if you have any semblance of skill (especially with quirks).

Edited by Deathlike, 30 May 2015 - 07:52 AM.