124 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Moenrg, on 03 June 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

There is a difference between screenshake and reticleshake. The Latter I can ignore (by looking elsewhere on the screen) as I don't look at it while jumping, the former is only avoided by not looking at the screen. It's not a "cop out" to say the former gave me a headache after 2 to 3 games. Personally, I'd prefer all shake removed and just prevent weapons from firing unless you are on the ground. I'd even be fine with having a cone of fire while airborne.

Doesn't matter, PGI isn't going to change this. We'll never be able to use a "Highlander Burial" and the Executioner will really be an 87 ton mech. Anything after 1xJJ will always be a waste of tonnage. Such is the reality of MWO.

And totally make jump brawling extinct? Nope.

Edited by Mystere, 03 June 2015 - 04:01 PM.

[Khobai]

Jump brawling should always be a thing. Although Id be fine with making it impossible to fire gauss when jumping.

[Mechteric]

All jump jets need to be addressed, not just those on assault mechs. Hover jets don't cut it!

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 03 June 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

Jump brawling should always be a thing. Although Id be fine with making it impossible to fire gauss when jumping.

But, I do this while brawling all the time.... (yes I brawl with a Gauss, it works)

[Yokaiko]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

But, I do this while brawling all the time.... (yes I brawl with a Gauss, it works)

Easier to light smack with a gauss than an AC20. You can see the OH SHEET! look as the lights try to bail after the second shot.

[Khobai]

Quote

But, I do this while brawling all the time.... (yes I brawl with a Gauss, it works)

I know it works. My point was that it shouldnt work. If jumpjets are buffed, in order to prevent poptarting from becoming a thing again, Gauss would probably need restriction where it cant be fired while youre jumping.

The whole purpose behind adding chargeup was to make it more difficult to fire gauss rifles while jumping. Yet it failed to accomplish that. So it makes more sense just to get rid of chargeup and instead disengage gauss from firing while jumping. That way you eliminate the undesireable behavior altogether.

That change would also indirectly buff PPCs/ERPPCs since Gauss would no longer compete with them at jumpsniping.

Edited by Khobai, 03 June 2015 - 08:39 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 03 June 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

I know it works. My point was that it shouldnt work. If jumpjets are buffed, in order to prevent poptarting from becoming a thing again, Gauss would probably need restriction where it cant be fired while youre jumping.

The whole purpose of chargeup was to make it difficult to fire gauss rifles while jumping. Yet it failed to accomplish that. So it makes more sense just to get rid of chargeup and disable gauss during jumps instead. That way you eliminate the undesireable behavior altogether.

Ehh I don't think buffing Class I JJs is going to bring poptarting back. 30-35 damage alpha from a 90-95 ton mech is underwhelming in this day and age.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 June 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

Ehh I don't think buffing Class I JJs is going to bring poptarting back. 30-35 damage alpha from a 90-95 ton mech is underwhelming in this day and age.

It also affects the Whale; that's 50 PP FLD easily; Tri ERPPC probably wouldn't work easily since you lose the 6 tons. Lazors aren't as great, but the Nova does it pretty well. Not sure if they'd be similar.


Quirking does prevent that, but of course they can't quirk JJs yet (but they did show interest)

Edited by Mcgral18, 03 June 2015 - 08:37 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ehh I don't think buffing Class I JJs is going to bring poptarting back. 30-35 damage alpha from a 90-95 ton mech is underwhelming in this day and age.

30-35 damage? my sniper dire wolf with dual gauss, dual errpc does 50 damage + 10 splash damage at long-range.

that thing would be ******** with buffed jumpjets... so buffing jumpjets and disengaging gauss from firing while jumping sounds like a good idea to me.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 03 June 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

30-35 damage? my sniper dire wolf with dual gauss, dual errpc does 50 damage + 10 splash damage at long-range.

that thing would be ******** with buffed jumpjets... so buffing jumpjets and disengaging gauss from firing while jumping sounds like a good idea to me.

Let's not apply a fix that unnecessarily punishes the Highlander and Executioner just because of the Dire. The thing with the Dire is, it is sooo slow. Poptarting effectively requires mobility. The reason I left that one out is because I am not a fan of poptarting in it. Its torso twist range is too low, its too slow... sure you can stand and hop up and down but we all know that doesn't work very well.

[LordBraxton]

JJs need a drastic change. They need to go with the 'leap' style rather than slow thrusters. JJ's should be fast, take you very far, shake your cockpit like crazy so you can't shoot, and have a slightly longer recharge time. The recharge and inability to shoot is what balancees out the fact that REAL JJs should be moving mechs hundreds of meters up n across in about 3 seconds.

[Gas Guzzler]

LordBraxton, on 04 June 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

JJs need a drastic change. They need to go with the 'leap' style rather than slow thrusters. JJ's should be fast, take you very far, shake your cockpit like crazy so you can't shoot, and have a slightly longer recharge time. The recharge and inability to shoot is what balancees out the fact that REAL JJs should be moving mechs hundreds of meters up n across in about 3 seconds.

Jump jets that work like that seem a little cartoony and gundam-ish to me...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mystere, don't blame me either, I didn't complain about the poptarters, this isn't MW2-4, no one is getting 3pov target information like those allowed, so they never bothered me in MWO. If you can jump up, get a shot off on me and get down again before I can return fire, good on you.

Moenrg, if the screenshake makes you sick, too damn bad, don't get in a JJ capable Mech is my ONLY answer to that. You remind me of the people who used to play Tribes who'd complain that the jumping in that game made them motion sick. Know what the devs did to help them out? They made fun of them, IF they bothered to respond at all. If you can't handle the visual effects of motion in a video game that has lots of motion, WTBF are you doing playing that video game in the first place? People with this problem are a minority, fact, so there's NO reason at all to cater to them in any way, shape or form.

LordBraxton has the right of it really, JJs in BTech are VIOLENT, they are not gentle, they cause massive delta v, you get slammed into your control couch from multiple G's due to the sudden violent acceleration, that's one constant in all the lore and novels, using JJ's isn't smooth and easy. You just lit a ROCKET THRUSTER under your own ass in a vehicle that's LESS aerodynamic than your standard brick, it should feel like that, shaking, rattling, the roaring of those thrusters as they push that plasma created from mercury out of them(yes, mercury, the standard fuel for BTech JJ, NOT ecofriendly!), being shoved down/back into your seat, and all over in a few seconds total from hitting the thrusters to landing again, 1 JJ or 12 JJ, doesn't matter, they move you the max distance they can cover in a just a few seconds, which means lots of JJs makes for a VERY rough ride. The game should show that, we shouldn't be ABLE to aim our weapons due to the shaking of the entire Mech, we should be allowed to fire them if we want, but aiming them, not a chance in hell.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

LordBraxton has the right of it really, JJs in BTech are VIOLENT, they are not gentle, they cause massive delta v, you get slammed into your control couch from multiple G's due to the sudden violent acceleration, that's one constant in all the lore and novels, using JJ's isn't smooth and easy. You just lit a ROCKET THRUSTER under your own ass in a vehicle that's LESS aerodynamic than your standard brick, it should feel like that, shaking, rattling, the roaring of those thrusters as they push that plasma created from mercury out of them(yes, mercury, the standard fuel for BTech JJ, NOT ecofriendly!), being shoved down/back into your seat, and all over in a few seconds total from hitting the thrusters to landing again, 1 JJ or 12 JJ, doesn't matter, they move you the max distance they can cover in a just a few seconds, which means lots of JJs makes for a VERY rough ride. The game should show that, we shouldn't be ABLE to aim our weapons due to the shaking of the entire Mech, we should be allowed to fire them if we want, but aiming them, not a chance in hell.

No thanks for reasons stated above. Also, have you heard of leg damage? Because with this system, every jump will cause leg damage.

[Weeny Machine]

Mystere, on 02 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

I bought the HM precisely to practice Highlander Burials. But alas, it ain't happening ever I guess.

Just another vital part which is missing of the Battletech universe like...melee attacks, warfare...

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 June 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

No thanks for reasons stated above. Also, have you heard of leg damage? Because with this system, every jump will cause leg damage.

No, it wouldn't, because even in TT ALL of the fuel isn't used in the take off, enough is always left to deal with the landing, unless you purposefully burn it all to attain greater height and drop in a free fall(house rule, TT didn't allow that, but a Light dropping from 120m has more KE to impart to it's target than one dropping from half that height, what happens when a bunch of science guys play TT games). WE have control of our fuel usage in MWO, that shouldn't change, but the JJs should make the entire Mech rattle, shake and vibrate so hard that aiming isn't really possible, you simply point in the general direction you want to fire and pray you hit what you were trying to hit.

This has been an issue in MW2-4, JJs gave an easy flight and allowed you to aim with ease, never should been done that way. Much like engine explosions, not part of the lore, it was in 2-4 but not in MWO for that reason, so JJing should be a rough ride.

Just because YOU want a nice smooth flight that allows you to aim and fire your weapons with ease doesn't mean that's what it should be, especially when the TT game this is all based on simply doesn't allow that, one of it's few nods to realism(there ARE a few of those, not many) and the game should follow those. It removes the poptarting problem totally, which means we could actually HAVE JJs that do something more than make it look like your Direwolf farted.

[Weeny Machine]

The basic question is: What use have jump jets in the TT, TRO, novels etc?

Their two uses are are:
1. to handle difficult terrain
2. to be able to get an advantage over an opponent through mobility - e.g. jump on a ledge or whatever


About point 1. well, you can argue about it.
However, point 2...imagine if you try to jump on a ledge with a Highlander while being shot at to gain a tactical advantage. You are most likely dead before you are up.

The reticle should just shake like mad during the whole flight (even if you do not trigger the jets) to make poptarting problematic but JJ should give the mechs the mobility they deserve. Those tons are precious they pay for those JJ.

[Maxx Blue]

So, would it help balance at all if IS JJ's were locked like the clans, or at least an all-or-nothing option? I would accept all-or-nothing JJ's on IS mechs if it meant they actually let us fly a little. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if that would be enough of a trade-off. The thing is, no matter how high you CAN go, the good players are still only going to jump just high enough to make a shot and no more. They aren't suddenly going to start launching their Victors through the air like giant LRM's. Given that we can just about guarantee that any heavy or assault with JJ's will use them this way, would forcing them to take ALL of the JJ's possible hurt enough to balance it? It seems reasonably effective with the clans, but the majority of their jumpers are lights or mediums so far.

Edited by Maxx Blue, 04 June 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[J0anna]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

...Useless drivel...

I'm sorry, I seem to have given you the impression I care about your worthless opinion. I don't, so next time you feel the need to express yourself about something I've said, try to remember - I don't give a sh*t about you or your opinion....

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 04 June 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

No, it wouldn't, because even in TT ALL of the fuel isn't used in the take off, enough is always left to deal with the landing, unless you purposefully burn it all to attain greater height and drop in a free fall(house rule, TT didn't allow that, but a Light dropping from 120m has more KE to impart to it's target than one dropping from half that height, what happens when a bunch of science guys play TT games). WE have control of our fuel usage in MWO, that shouldn't change, but the JJs should make the entire Mech rattle, shake and vibrate so hard that aiming isn't really possible, you simply point in the general direction you want to fire and pray you hit what you were trying to hit.

This has been an issue in MW2-4, JJs gave an easy flight and allowed you to aim with ease, never should been done that way. Much like engine explosions, not part of the lore, it was in 2-4 but not in MWO for that reason, so JJing should be a rough ride.

Just because YOU want a nice smooth flight that allows you to aim and fire your weapons with ease doesn't mean that's what it should be, especially when the TT game this is all based on simply doesn't allow that, one of it's few nods to realism(there ARE a few of those, not many) and the game should follow those. It removes the poptarting problem totally, which means we could actually HAVE JJs that do something more than make it look like your Direwolf farted.

Jump speed doesn't have anything to do with aiming, aiming is done on the way down so... no.

I just want a somewhat realistic feel to the jump jets, not something I would expect to see in a cartoon, instantaneous acceleration and such, which is NOT realism. What is more realistic is a slow initial acceleration upwards that increases over time. Watch a rocket launch.

I'm not even worried about poptarting. I can poptart now if I wanted to, but I can do more damage with other strategies so why bother.