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Consumables Destroy Tactics And Mech Builds/roles


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#21 Void Angel

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 11:22 AM

View PostLordBraxton, on 06 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:


yeah because spamming an instant cast beacon that calls in AOE magic missiles after a couple seconds is ******* harcore tactical simulation elements man.

Welcome to the fun-filled world of modern field artillery! You're actually correct, even though you don't know it - the fact that there is a smoke cannister dropped at the location of incoming fire lends a totally unrealistic advantage to the defender, but that's balance for you.

If you want to oppose consumables because you dislike their implementation, by all means do so - but holding forth about "tactical simulation" on a subject where you seem to have no expertise merely displays ignorance and weakens your already-lacking ethos.

In point of fact, strike consumables do increase tactical behaviors such as maneuver and tactical dispersion.

Edited by Void Angel, 06 June 2015 - 11:22 AM.


#22 Mudhutwarrior

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 11:48 AM

I'm thinking with all the calls for nerf this nerf that maybe we should all just get one small laser to fight with. Then they can ***** about burn times

#23 C E Dwyer

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 11:48 AM

I don't think they should be banned.
They have a use, they are very mild amount of damage, and they do none at all if you do more than just corner poke in a blob.

They help to penalise static dull game play

#24 Carrioncrows

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 11:58 AM

I am ...

just not a fan of:

Arty
Airstrikes
Coolshot
UAV

They bring the game down when their are no restrictions on their use. People may hate it but you should have to "Earn" the right to use your consumable. If that means CoD killstreaks / objective-streaks. So be it.

There is nothing enjoyable about consumables.

#25 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:02 PM

View PostFupDup, on 06 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

We need more defensive-focused modules. Stuff like increased internal structure on certain body sections (i.e. "Center Torso Structure Module").


They mentioned at one point that they were looking into those. Wonder where they went.

#26 LordBraxton

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:06 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 06 June 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yeah cause Grunts carry heavy artillery to the front line in their A.L.I.C.E. packs.


"Realism,'" argument? Seriously? This Is Battletech, and youre better than that Joe.

Also.. are we grunts? I thought the vast number of infantry and tank regiments in the RCT were the grunts.

Mechs dont make sense.

Aerospace for 90% of combat. (largely consisting of orbital weapons honestly.) Battle armor for urban warfare and hazardous terrain. Mechs are really fat targets in the open, and too unwieldy to do anything in an urban environment other than level it, which a bomb would do much more efficiently.

So let's use the 'realism' argument to remove mechs from MWO.

If it gives you an advantage, it should cost critical slots or tons.

View PostVoid Angel, on 06 June 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

If you want to oppose consumables because you dislike their implementation, by all means do so - but holding forth about "tactical simulation" on a subject where you seem to have no expertise merely displays ignorance and weakens your already-lacking ethos.


Hi, youre really arrogant and show a lack of reading comprehension. What you quoted was a response to what I quoted, and was a sarcastic example to illustrate that REALISM IS NEVER A GOOD ARGUMENT IN BATTLETECH.

Also, I'm sure you're just a tactical expert. Bet youre good at chess.

You could have 12 years of millitary service and likely know jack **** about 'tactics,' because the only people who really do are the ones who've made hard calls in real combat situations. Likely nobody on this forum qualifies.

I hope all you armchair-general types choke on your epeens someday.

This is about game design, not some ******** about 'realism' in a ludicrous space opera. Every advantage should cost in-game resources, not meta-game currency.

Edited by LordBraxton, 06 June 2015 - 12:15 PM.


#27 Elizander

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:17 PM

I actually prefer coolshots over airstrikes on some of my mechs cause pewpew.

#28 Mystere

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:37 PM

View PostFate 6, on 06 June 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

UAVs kill brawlers, Arty kills brawlers, snipers, and assaults. Coolshot reinforces the laser meta.

Consumables never made the game better, they just made it more frustrating. A single UAV can win a game depending on positioning


In short, proper tactical usage of UAVs greatly contributes to victory. Where is the problem again?

#29 Mystere

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:44 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 06 June 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

"Realism,'" argument? Seriously? This Is Battletech, and youre better than that Joe.


Actually, considering we are now in the 21st Century, I think what can be made realistic should be, within the limits of the IP of course. Some ideas borne out of the realities of the '80s should be gutted and modernized.

#30 BionicPeanut

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:49 PM

lets nerf everything, that should fix it.

#31 happy mech

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:54 PM

View PostMystere, on 06 June 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:


In short, proper tactical usage of UAVs greatly contributes to victory. Where is the problem again?

because mechs should decide victory, not some third-party stuff that cheats the mech mechanics

#32 Void Angel

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 01:03 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 06 June 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Hi, youre really arrogant and show a lack of reading comprehension. What you quoted was a response to what I quoted, and was a sarcastic example to illustrate that REALISM IS NEVER A GOOD ARGUMENT IN BATTLETECH.

Also, I'm sure you're just a tactical expert. Bet youre good at chess.

You could have 12 years of millitary service and likely know jack **** about 'tactics,' because the only people who really do are the ones who've made hard calls in real combat situations. Likely nobody on this forum qualifies.

I hope all you armchair-general types choke on your epeens someday.

Making unsupported assumptions and sweeping generalizations,PUNCTUATED BY ANGRY CAPITAL LETTERS IN LIEU OF ARGUMENT, really doesn't do a good job of rebutting fair points. Similarly, when you insult my literacy in the same breath you try to revise history when we can all go back and read the posts, you've only succeeded in embarrassing yourself.

Your original angry diatribe was aimed at Spheroid, who simply asserted that consumables enhance tactics. You then responded with this:

View PostLordBraxton, on 06 June 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:


yeah because spamming an instant cast beacon that calls in AOE magic missiles after a couple seconds is ******* harcore tactical simulation elements man.

Consumables are dumb as hell, the way they function is stupid, and the way they are purchased and equipped is imbalanced.

There should be NO ADVANTAGES that do not cost CRITICAL SLOTS OR TONNAGE.

The whole module system is grind padding ******** that widens the gap between new players, and us vets who drive them away playing to PGIs terrible systems.
an angry monologue disagreeing with Spheroid by way of the quotation I criticized, characterizing artillery as "magic missiles" before segueing into an incoherent rant against consumables, and capping it all off with some rambling illogic about new players being driven away because people use cool shots or something.

You don't know anything about my military education, deployment background, or MOS - you simply throw out ex cathedra pronouncements about who "really understands" tactics, and how many of them are "likely" on this forum. My own expertise aside, I know multiple players of this game who have made "hard calls in real combat." This game has at least two units which are run by or only recruit from former and current military personnel. When you hold forth on whether or not we are allowed to know about tactics, you embarrass yourself again - and insult us.

Personal attacks and self-serving pronouncements about "how it is" are not permissible modes of debate, here or anywhere. You started out contradicting a post related only to tactical depth - by describing a battlefield phenomenon that has been common since 1882 as "magical" - and then attempt to simply brazen your way out of the criticism by making believe that no one on the forums is qualified to talk about tactics. But that includes you, so your objection is invalidated by your own defense of it.

Happy, UAVs enhance the use of 'mechs - they don't "cheat their mechanics." Using that UAV to convey vital information simply allows your team to use their 'mechs to best advantage; this is not a huge problem, or even really an issue.

Edited by Void Angel, 06 June 2015 - 01:04 PM.


#33 LordBraxton

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:08 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 06 June 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

rubbish


You attacked my writing style, dismissed my opinions, and blathered about your supposed military expertise while trying to fit as many (what you obviously think are) impressive vocabulary words into your post as possible.

1/10

It's ok to express an opinion on a video game forum without a 50 page dissertation. Try addressing some of my points next time. also, here's another personal attack you can condescendingly reply to with another wall of garbage.

get out more.

Every advantage should cost in-game resources, not meta-game currency.

That's my opinion, I'll post it how I want to.

Edited by LordBraxton, 06 June 2015 - 02:11 PM.


#34 Alistair Winter

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:11 PM

Agree 100%

Can't really understand how everyone hates R&R, but is totally cool with C-bills being the balancing tool for consumables.

UAV, artillery and airstrikes should be limited to certain mechs to enhance role warfare. And should be balanced with advantages and disadvantages in-game, not with C-bills.

#35 masCh

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:17 PM

UAV is the only way to keep LRMs relevant.

#36 happy mech

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 02:54 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 06 June 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Happy, UAVs enhance the use of 'mechs - they don't "cheat their mechanics." Using that UAV to convey vital information simply allows your team to use their 'mechs to best advantage; this is not a huge problem, or even really an issue.

mechs should provide that information, seismic or uav means no risk all gain, cover should have some meaning

View PostmasCh, on 06 June 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

UAV is the only way to keep LRMs relevant.

lrms need proper targeting system to make them work without beign overpowered (rework ecm, remove target decay time (no line of sight, no locks!))
lrm on friendly locks - horrible accuracy (really horrible)
lrm on narc/tag or own locks - normal accuracy (same for 5/10/15/20)
lrm on own locks with artemis - better accuracy
increase lrm accuracy, speed, cooldown (support, not dps weapon), make it useful to take a single lrm20 on a highlander for example

#37 Elizander

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 07:13 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 06 June 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Agree 100%

Can't really understand how everyone hates R&R, but is totally cool with C-bills being the balancing tool for consumables.

UAV, artillery and airstrikes should be limited to certain mechs to enhance role warfare. And should be balanced with advantages and disadvantages in-game, not with C-bills.


The consumables are okay. Maybe increase the CD between airstrikes/arty. I do not like the c-bill cost for these items because people are always saving up for mechs. The game is balanced around the use of these items yet new players, non-paying players and players saving up for a new mech or new engine cannot use these items because there are times when it makes you break even or lose money.

All a team needs is 1 light mech hanging back with an ERLL and UAVs will never bother your team ever. There are games where I shoot 3-4 down on my brawler using just 2 MLs before charging in.

#38 Mystere

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 07:46 PM

View Posthappy mech, on 06 June 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

because mechs should decide victory, not some third-party stuff that cheats the mech mechanics


It's called-combined arms. Learn it instead of crying on the forums.

Edited by Mystere, 06 June 2015 - 07:46 PM.


#39 Zolaz

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 07:50 PM

View Posthappy mech, on 06 June 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

i think game would be better without consumables, unless they are a major revenue for pgi

what you think?


Well, only competitive pilots use them. What else are they going to spend 40k or 80k per match on?

#40 Void Angel

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 08:51 PM

View Posthappy mech, on 06 June 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

mechs should provide that information, seismic or uav means no risk all gain, cover should have some meaning

Cover has quite a bit of meaning - it prevents you from being shot at, and blocks line of sight. The only thing that a UAV or seismic sensor does is expand situational awareness in a limited fashion. Seismic is in fact the 'mech doing it (and all 'mechs have seismic sensors in BattleTech,) while the UAV's strengths come with the weakness of being easily destroyed. In matches against people who are paying attention, most UAVs last mere seconds before being shot down. Seismic sensors require that you be stationary and very close to the target in order to be used.

Simply having these things in the game and expending a module slot (plus c-bills) for them does not invalidate all meaning for cover, nor are they "no risk and all gain." At the very least, you're risking 40,000 c-bills and a module slot, not to mention needing to be close by.





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