133 replies to this topic

[Soy]

poopy weapon is poopoo

[Y E O N N E]

SOL Ranger, on 21 June 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

I would like something like the following.

AC2 changes:

• 0.2 heat per shot(80% reduced from 1.0)
  
• 3.0t weight(50% reduced from 6.0), thus grants more ammo for most mechs using it as well.
  
• 540m(max 1080) range(25% reduced from 720)
  
• 1200m/s velocity(40% slowed down from 2000)
  
• 0.019 impulse(50% reduced from 0.038)
  
• Cooldown module introduced.

540 m max range is where the Light AC/2 cap out at, and making the standard AC/2 sit there would mean reducing the LAC/2 to something even shorter which then implicates that the LAC/5 has to be something even shorter still.

And why do you want a slower round? It's not like people are sniping with the AC/2 as it is, because the AC/5 does more damage all the way out to 1100 meters.

[LordNothing]

you would have to anti-quirk some of the 6 gun platforms but it would be nice to see 1 or 2 gun builds be more viable. 6ac2 on a crab for example is not a bad weapons array right now and a small increase in dps would make it murder on acid.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2015 - 05:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

you would have to anti-quirk some of the 6 gun platforms but it would be nice to see 1 or 2 gun builds be more viable. 6ac2 on a crab for example is not a bad weapons array right now and a small increase in dps would make it murder on acid.

Is that really unfair, though, considering it's got 36 tons in guns alone? 36 tons of ammo dependent guns that will run hot even if we lower the heat to 0.6 and will still require face time to kill a target.

Honestly, it doesn't sound much worse than a UAC Dire Wolf.

[Pjwned]

SOL Ranger, on 21 June 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

I would like something like the following.

AC2 changes:

• 0.2 heat per shot(80% reduced from 1.0)
  
• 3.0t weight(50% reduced from 6.0), thus grants more ammo for most mechs using it as well.
  
• 540m(max 1080) range(25% reduced from 720)
  
• 1200m/s velocity(40% slowed down from 2000)
  
• 0.019 impulse(50% reduced from 0.038)
  
• Cooldown module introduced.

Just introduce the Light AC2 at that point, no need to drastically change the AC2 like that.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

540 m max range is where the Light AC/2 cap out at, and making the standard AC/2 sit there would mean reducing the LAC/2 to something even shorter which then implicates that the LAC/5 has to be something even shorter still.

It wouldn't make sense to change AC2 like that when Light AC2 exists anyways, so...

Quote

And why do you want a slower round? It's not like people are sniping with the AC/2 as it is, because the AC/5 does more damage all the way out to 1100 meters.

Well, if the Light AC2 was added then I would not expect the projectile to be 2,000 m/s. Also, considering that AC5 shots travel much slower and you're wasting a lot of damage doing that, I can't think of why anybody would be sniping with it at such long ranges.

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

Is that really unfair, though, considering it's got 36 tons in guns alone? 36 tons of ammo dependent guns that will run hot even if we lower the heat to 0.6 and will still require face time to kill a target.

Honestly, it doesn't sound much worse than a UAC Dire Wolf.

it wouldn't be a huge anti-quirk. it would be nice for it to gain a little dps, but if the dps per gun can go all the way up to 3.92, then the 6 ac2 crab would get 23.52dps. thats like having an ac20 machine gun with the range of a gauss. so a -0.05 quirk to cooldown would make those platforms a little less deadly while still gaining a little dps.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2015 - 05:49 PM.

[Nullmancer]

I'd like decreased heat per shot, although its not that bad right now. I'd also like increased ammo/ton slightly, make it so that my BJ-1 with 3 to 3.5 tons ammo can last til near the end of the game with a ton less.

[SOL Ranger]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

540 m max range is where the Light AC/2 cap out at, and making the standard AC/2 sit there would mean reducing the LAC/2 to something even shorter which then implicates that the LAC/5 has to be something even shorter still.

And why do you want a slower round? It's not like people are sniping with the AC/2 as it is, because the AC/5 does more damage all the way out to 1100 meters.

While you have a point about the range if the LAC2 is ever introduced that is, I also suppose a near 700m range for the AC2 is warranted to fall closer in line with the AC5 ballistics, but if that range reduction is what it takes to get the other changes I'm all for a 540m range on it.

However the high 2000m/s velocity is actually a hindrance in many cases as it functions out of sync from other ballistics, spreading out your fire and giving it completely different flight characteristics, something has to give in terms of statistics in the balancing as my proposed changes to heat and weight are not small even if the AC2 is in a very poor shape currently.

[SOL Ranger]

Pjwned, on 21 June 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

Just introduce the Light AC2 at that point, no need to drastically change the AC2 like that.

I guess this is really the gist of what I'm trying to achieve from this, to allow a smaller caliber weapon to go in line with other ballistics performance/ton wise, a very practical and functional weapon to be used between AC5 and a MG.

masCh, on 21 June 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Go to bed, SOL Ranger

Not quite yet, this is important stuff that needs to be discussed thoroughly.

Now focus! Call Russ, this needs to happen.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 21 June 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

Just introduce the Light AC2 at that point, no need to drastically change the AC2 like that.


It wouldn't make sense to change AC2 like that when Light AC2 exists anyways, so...

Precisely. I think that would be even more welcome than changes to the standard AC/2. I would love to have LAC/2 available for my Blackjacks.

Quote

Well, if the Light AC2 was added then I would not expect the projectile to be 2,000 m/s. Also, considering that AC5 shots travel much slower and you're wasting a lot of damage doing that, I can't think of why anybody would be sniping with it at such long ranges.

I would expect an LAC/2 projectile to still be around 1600-1800 m/s. Making it appreciably slower would be introducing an unnecessary drawback that various Clan ACs do not have; LACs are supposed to bridge the gap for IS between standard AC and C-LB/UAC and the shorter range is enough of a penalty in conjunction with the required face time; no need to make it harder to use in conjunction with the inevitable laser complement.

LordNothing, on 21 June 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

it wouldn't be a huge anti-quirk. it would be nice for it to gain a little dps, but if the dps per gun can go all the way up to 3.92, then the 6 ac2 crab would get 23.52dps. thats like having an ac20 machine gun with the range of a gauss. so a -0.05 quirk to cooldown would make those platforms a little less deadly while still gaining a little dps.

That's barely any better than what a 6x cUAC/5 DWF can do once you module it up and have Fast Fire, and that's before factoring in the double-tap which can more than make up the difference even used sparingly. The heat on it is also only 3.61 hps, while the 6x AC/2 Crab would be 7.2 hps assuming 0.6 heat and a cool-down of 0.5 seconds.

SOL Ranger, on 21 June 2015 - 06:03 PM, said:

While you have a point about the range if the LAC2 is ever introduced that is, I also suppose a near 700m range for the AC2 is warranted to fall closer in line with the AC5 ballistics, but if that range reduction is what it takes to get the other changes I'm all for a 540m range on it.

However the high 2000m/s velocity is actually a hindrance in many cases as it functions out of sync from other ballistics, spreading out your fire and giving it completely different flight characteristics, something has to give in terms of statistics in the balancing as my proposed changes to heat and weight are not small even if the AC2 is in a very poor shape currently.

I don't want the AC/2 to sync with my other ballistics, I want it to sync with my lasers. Personally, my preferred usage for AC/2 is to hang out at long range (600+ m) and just wail on a target using AC/2 in conjunction with ERLL. The AC/2 is inherently inferior at close range since it requires face-time, so I mitigate that by using the AC/2 at ranges where return fire is much more limited in its potency. I want my standard AC/2 to perform well at their upper limit, because below that and other ballistics are just flat-out better.

As for something having to give, only if the heat comes down to 0.2, which I think is entirely out of line. The gun will also not come down to three tons; PGI is pretty strict on size and weight characteristics.

[Andi Nagasia]

SOL Ranger, on 21 June 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

I would like something like the following.

AC2 changes:

• 0.2 heat per shot(80% reduced from 1.0)
  
• 3.0t weight(50% reduced from 6.0), thus grants more ammo for most mechs using it as well.
  
• 540m(max 1080) range(25% reduced from 720)
  
• 1200m/s velocity(40% slowed down from 2000)
  
• 0.019 impulse(50% reduced from 0.038)
  
• Cooldown module introduced.

im sorry but i cant agree with your Proposal,
as stated thats close to being a LAC2(Coming Soon™)

the reason why im only changing the Cooldown is to make the Change Simple,
and also not require a rework, Why? so if Russ or Paul like it, they can Hot Fix it in,
i feel this -0.10 Change will make the AC2 Much more Viable, with out a total rework,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 21 June 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[Zordicron]

REDUCE THE HEAT.

Seriously, it should be enough that the weapon requires 6 tons for two dmg, and requires ammo, and face time above and beyond pretty much anything in the game(cept maybe flamers and MG) to do the dmg. making them cook you is silly.

Really, DHS required to run a couple ballistics? The whole idea of ballistics vs lasers is the tonnage and ammo were compensation for heat. Lasers require numerous heatsinks(tons) to function in a similar manner to ballistics(tons of gun, and ammo) Thats outside of the facetime and non-spreadsheet related play considerations the weapon needs.

Either that, or just make it 4 tons and be done with it. Frees up the tons for DHS and ammo. makes it viable for a light mech, maybe even to run 2 of them then to actually serve as a main weapon for them.

Adjusting heat would probably be the fastest though, and easiest to test results of.

[InspectorG]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 June 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- rework,
Edit2- side notes

IMO, wrong direction.

AC2 suck because to use them well you have to commit to LOTS of facetime. Ill eat AC2 damage to drop a 50+ alpha regardless of shake.
Most weapons other than lasers(insta hit) beyond 500m suck unless you can lead(PPC, Gauss) and lead+drop(ac's)

Take the AC2s and make them damage Armor AND Components even if armor is still intact. Armor piercing rounds so to speak. No crit bonus...yet.

[Andi Nagasia]

InspectorG, on 21 June 2015 - 07:55 PM, said:

IMO, wrong direction.

AC2 suck because to use them well you have to commit to LOTS of facetime. Ill eat AC2 damage to drop a 50+ alpha regardless of shake.
Most weapons other than lasers(insta hit) beyond 500m suck unless you can lead(PPC, Gauss) and lead+drop(ac's)

Take the AC2s and make them damage Armor AND Components even if armor is still intact. Armor piercing rounds so to speak. No crit bonus...yet.

reworked again based on the BJ Quirks,
i feel that 0.52(3.84DPS) would greatly help AC2 Viability,

to test your Self, take Any C-AC2 into Testing Ground with Elite'd NVA / WHK(10% Cooldown Arms),
your Final Bonus will be 25% cooldown, reducing AC2 Cooldown to 0.54(go ahead Try it ),

[Pjwned]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 June 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

I would expect an LAC/2 projectile to still be around 1600-1800 m/s. Making it appreciably slower would be introducing an unnecessary drawback that various Clan ACs do not have; LACs are supposed to bridge the gap for IS between standard AC and C-LB/UAC and the shorter range is enough of a penalty in conjunction with the required face time; no need to make it harder to use in conjunction with the inevitable laser complement.

I don't necessarily agree with that because anything with 400m+ range is pretty solid, and considering that most people would want to use LAC2 because the long range on AC2 is wasted in most situations I don't think it's unfair to reduce the projectile speed noticeably because the way I see it is gaining tonnage is much more important than losing range here. I might agree with 1600 m/s speed, but that would be pretty much the max in my opinion and I could see it being around 1500 m/s or possibly even a little lower while still being good and fair. My guideline (which I think is pretty reasonable) on the projectile speed for something like the LAC2 is ~3x optimal range (possibly lower due to it being a light AC) which would be around 1400-1650 m/s, and the AC2 already fits this criteria with its 720m optimal range at 2000 m/s projectile speed.

Edited by Pjwned, 21 June 2015 - 11:45 PM.

[InspectorG]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 June 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

reworked again based on the BJ Quirks,
i feel that 0.52(3.84DPS) would greatly help AC2 Viability,

to test your Self, take Any C-AC2 into Testing Ground with Elite'd NVA / WHK(10% Cooldown Arms),
your Final Bonus will be 25% cooldown, reducing AC2 Cooldown to 0.54(go ahead Try it ),

Ive used my Banshee, Cicada X-5 and twice let a 5UAC2/5LBX2 whatever Dire spray me with BBs while i sawed his ST off.
I twisted the damage all over and focused their ST off cutting their firepower in half. One i solo'd the other my team killed.

I get the rattle scares most away...but at such a low damage per second that i can spread i just sat in front of his face dropping 30pt or 61pt aplhas into the ST.
Because i have to wait 2-4 seconds to fire letting me twist/reposition.
The CA2 user CANT unless he wants to lose DPS/spread damage so he forfeits defense...

Has a Spider V match last night on mining collective. I got up top a building and literally peeked a 5AC5 Whale to death with peek a boo. My 2MPL at 300m afforded me to only get hit twice...and i didnt eat many shells.

Again the problem is face time relative to the DPS.

Space whale or 4UAC10 whale is WAY scarier than BB gun whale.

There needs to be a mechanic to where that face time pays off big...or small peeks can reward a weapon that will only do 2-4 damage for the tonnage/heat cost hence the component damage.

[Sjorpha]

Reduce the heat to closer match the HPS of AC5.

[Y E O N N E]

Pjwned, on 21 June 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

I don't necessarily agree with that because anything with 400m+ range is pretty solid, and considering that most people would want to use LAC2 because the long range on AC2 is wasted in most situations I don't think it's unfair to reduce the projectile speed noticeably because the way I see it is gaining tonnage is much more important than losing range here. I might agree with 1600 m/s speed, but that would be pretty much the max in my opinion and I could see it being around 1500 m/s or possibly even a little lower while still being good and fair. My guideline (which I think is pretty reasonable) on the projectile speed for something like the LAC2 is ~3x optimal range (possibly lower due to it being a light AC) which would be around 1400-1650 m/s, and the AC2 already fits this criteria with its 720m optimal range at 2000 m/s projectile speed.

Honestly, if I can not have to lead the target by any appreciable amount at and below 350 meters, I don't care about the specifics. The AC/2 is not effective on its own even if lightened unless you can bring 4+, and needs lasers to complement it. As such, they should sync rather nicely with those lasers around whatever their forté range is. If LAC/2 can't sync with lasers and Machine Guns at close-medium range, there's very little point in using it at all on something like the Arrow, which is precisely the type of 'Mech to which Light AC/2 provide the largest boost in utility.

[Joseph Mallan]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 June 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

not many people use the AC2(IS & Clan),
so i thought of how we can start seeing in more often,

=Better AC2 Idea=
Reduce all AC2s Cool-down to 0.62 from 0.72,
Adding more DPS and allowing it to fire Continuously,

Weapon,.......Damage,...Velocity,...Heat,...Cool-down,...DPS,...
Current AC2......2............2000.........1..........0.72...........2.78...
New AC2............2............2000.........1..........0.52...........3.84...
(with the -12% cool-down Module it becomes= 0.46(4.35 DPS)
(with that & -5% cool-down Skill it becomes= 0.43(4.65 DPS)

i think this could open allot of possibilities for AC2s,
i feel more Lights & Mediums would take it for its DPS,
but remember, this New DPS comes with Full Face Time,

=Side Notes=
also give us our AC2/UAC2 Cool-down Modules,
as well as Perhaps lowing the Heat on the AC2,

but first your thoughts, would you use it more?
Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- rework,
Edit2- side notes
Edit3- BJ-Quirk rework

I prefer heavy hitting to sand blasting. AC2 is a death by paper cuts weapon. I don't see it needing fixed.

[Andi Nagasia]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 June 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

I prefer heavy hitting to sand blasting. AC2 is a death by paper cuts weapon. I don't see it needing fixed.

i feel this change is warranted, as AC2 requires full Face time, as where an AC20 doesnt,
so an AC20(5DPS) should have about the same DPS as an AC2(2.78), but it doesnt not even close,
which is why ive increased the AC2 cooldown to 0.52(3.84DPS) to compensate for Full face time,